So does your belt have nothing at all on it, or does it have some indication of degree? Just curious. We also have a patch on each side of the chest (one for our local class, one for our org), and our surnames embroidered on our backs. Once you achieve 1st black, you can wear any color or style of gi you want; before that it's solid black only for color belts and solid red only for brown belts (so they can spot us in a crowd and order us around.) Compared to a lot of what I see at tournaments (tons of patches, intricate embroidery, etc.), we're really plain.
Question about karate belts
- Thread starter chrispillertkd
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So does your belt have nothing at all on it, or does it have some indication of degree? Just curious. We also have a patch on each side of the chest (one for our local class, one for our org), and our surnames embroidered on our backs. Once you achieve 1st black, you can wear any color or style of gi you want; before that it's solid black only for color belts and solid red only for brown belts (so they can spot us in a crowd and order us around.) Compared to a lot of what I see at tournaments (tons of patches, intricate embroidery, etc.), we're really plain.
My dojo wears a plain white gi. I spent a short time in another Isshin-Ryu dojo that wore a black gi or a white gi as student preferred. Black-belts were allowed to mix-and-match tops and bottoms.
We have patches available, but no one has to wear them. I don't have any on my gi. Our patches are an Isshin-Ryu symbol on the left breast (Mizu-Gami), a dojo patch on one shoulder, and an organization patch (UIKA) on the other. I forget which shoulder is which. I haven't joined UIKA yet, but I keep meaning to do so. I'd also like to put the dojo and Mizu-Gami on, just haven't gotten to it.
dancingalone
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The belts given to his students by my sensei are just plain, albeit good quality brands like Shureido. All of his students who teach (myself included) follow this practice. I do own a belt embroidered with my name and style in kanji, but that was a gift to me from my students. I rarely wear it, although it is a nice belt.
I hold black belts in TKD and aikido as well. The aikido belt is similarly unadorned, but the TKD belt does have 2 stripes indicating my ee-dan rank.
Wow, different color uniforms and your names on the backs. That's pretty flashy by my standard.
As for tournaments, in my youth when I competed as a TKDist, I had one of those star spangled banner uniforms sold by Century. What was I thinking?!
dancingalone
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Isshinryu is filled with inflated rank. You can't shake a tree without a 7-10th dan falling out. This is no secret in karate circles. Please keep in mind I say that as a friend and admirer of the style, but I'm speaking the truth as I see it. Respectfully said.
It's no problem for me! Fortunately, I feel secure. My sensei is an 8th dan with 40+ years of training. His dan ranks were signed by Sensei Mitchum and / or Harrill, and they in turn received their dan ranks from Master Shimabuku. If their ranks are inflated, they were inflated by the founder of Isshin-Ryu, and I guess he could do whatever he wanted with his own style, eh?
My Sensei has often talked about how he has declined invitations to take part in ceremonies promoting others to ranks higher than that of the people doing the promoting; he feels it is not right. He actually has dan-rank in the same degrees from more than one of his Senseis, since he felt better if they individually agreed that he was worthy of that dan ranking; the certificates are on the wall of the dojo for all to see. He has been visited in his dojo and has demonstrated his kata to members of the Rengo-Kai, and they had no objection to his rank or claims. From what I've heard, the Rengo-Kai is the real deal as far as authentic Okinawan karate goes. If they agree you're a whatever-dan, then that's what you are.
And since rank is very, very, slow in my dojo, I would never feel that belts are given other than by being earned. That's why I feel very honored to have a blue belt, and to be working on my brown belt requirements (I took the written test, still need to learn my Chinto kata). I am told I'll be a brown belt for five or so years before I can even think about Sho-Dan. I'll probably not live long enough to see much higher than maybe San-Dan if I really apply myself; I just started too late in life. And that's just fine with me.
So no offense taken. My rank is real, at least to my own satisfaction. Seeing my Sensei and knowing what kind of man he is, I believe his is real too. No ego-stroking or belt-inflation in my dojo that I'm aware of.
Victor Smith
Blue Belt
For starters there is almost no town you can go to in the United States you cant find 9th or 10th dans. Rank inflation as reached such proportions it has made all of it meaningless. You dont have school instructors you have Masters, etc.
Prior to the 1920s there was no rank in karate. When karate exported itself to Japan proper it adopted Judo traditions (uniforms, belt and kyu/dan ranking) to fit the new culture.
Back on Okinawa about the mid 1950s the Okinawan schools started up ranking programs and handed dan levels out to their groups by whatever standards they possessed. For example Gojus founder, Miyagi Chojun, refused to rank anyone with a black belt, but after his death all Goju were using black belt ranking. Actually the Okinawans by the 50s saw that in 72 the USA was returning Okinawa to Japanese control and they likely felt Okinawa mirroring Japanese standards made sense in the long run.
One case Shimabuku Tatsuo, finalizing his system of Isshinryu, in 1956, did not choose the same standards for the Marines that other Okinawan schools were using.. Upon completion of their tour of duty on Okinawa (about 16 months) hed award them a black belt and give them a certificate for 5th or 6th dan and tell then thats what they should be in 20 years. Some of them just became sho-dan upon return to the States, others assumed their certificate rank. Shimabuku also appointed 4 students to be the Seniors in the states and gave them 8th dan ranking. That Isshinryu was never unified is a much larger topic than that of rank.
As Shimabuku never expected to see those students ever again his reasons were likely a mixture of the following:
Isshinryu splintering was not so much a rank issue but the fact that there was too much distance between each other to find a way to get on the same page. Okinawa is only 45 miles long, the United States is a little bit bigger. In fact one way to look at it was a Master of Okinawa was a master in a space 45 miles long. Perhaps here the distance remains the same.
Isshinryu sure impressed on all the other systems senior rank works, and in time everyone realized there were no real rules and followed Shimabukus lead on rank.
Truthfully the only relevance of rank is within the particular organization it is given,
outside of that its meaningless.
Another phenomena different from 10th dans everywhere, many of the Isshinryu
eniors awarded each other very senior rank towards the end of their lives.
Not inappropriate as they literally created karate where there was nothing.
I respect everyone who walks with honor and wont dispute their rank, but for
myself I define a Master as someone who people remember 25 years after theyre
dead. I then define a Grandmaster as someone who people remember 50 years
after theyre dead. I have no desire to be a master. I've only been doing this 37
years after all.
Prior to the 1920s there was no rank in karate. When karate exported itself to Japan proper it adopted Judo traditions (uniforms, belt and kyu/dan ranking) to fit the new culture.
Back on Okinawa about the mid 1950s the Okinawan schools started up ranking programs and handed dan levels out to their groups by whatever standards they possessed. For example Gojus founder, Miyagi Chojun, refused to rank anyone with a black belt, but after his death all Goju were using black belt ranking. Actually the Okinawans by the 50s saw that in 72 the USA was returning Okinawa to Japanese control and they likely felt Okinawa mirroring Japanese standards made sense in the long run.
One case Shimabuku Tatsuo, finalizing his system of Isshinryu, in 1956, did not choose the same standards for the Marines that other Okinawan schools were using.. Upon completion of their tour of duty on Okinawa (about 16 months) hed award them a black belt and give them a certificate for 5th or 6th dan and tell then thats what they should be in 20 years. Some of them just became sho-dan upon return to the States, others assumed their certificate rank. Shimabuku also appointed 4 students to be the Seniors in the states and gave them 8th dan ranking. That Isshinryu was never unified is a much larger topic than that of rank.
As Shimabuku never expected to see those students ever again his reasons were likely a mixture of the following:
- Keep the USMC satisfied to keep paying for the program (Okinawa was in a severe depression and his students fees paid for his family support).
- He probably felt most of the students would stop training so giving rank really amounted to very little.
- All of his studies were from that time before rank, masters, etc. so he likely didnt think any of it amounted to much in the long run.
Isshinryu splintering was not so much a rank issue but the fact that there was too much distance between each other to find a way to get on the same page. Okinawa is only 45 miles long, the United States is a little bit bigger. In fact one way to look at it was a Master of Okinawa was a master in a space 45 miles long. Perhaps here the distance remains the same.
Isshinryu sure impressed on all the other systems senior rank works, and in time everyone realized there were no real rules and followed Shimabukus lead on rank.
Truthfully the only relevance of rank is within the particular organization it is given,
outside of that its meaningless.
Another phenomena different from 10th dans everywhere, many of the Isshinryu
eniors awarded each other very senior rank towards the end of their lives.
Not inappropriate as they literally created karate where there was nothing.
I respect everyone who walks with honor and wont dispute their rank, but for
myself I define a Master as someone who people remember 25 years after theyre
dead. I then define a Grandmaster as someone who people remember 50 years
after theyre dead. I have no desire to be a master. I've only been doing this 37
years after all.
Wow, different color uniforms and your names on the backs. That's pretty flashy by my standard.
We have a big organization, so the names help a lot. I often wish EVERYONE did it--especially my sons' friends. Personally, I hate the red uniform. I prefer black--it's slimming. As for the Century star spangled uniforms, I have a pic on my desk of the head instructor of my school wearing one. He only pulls it out on special occasions, fortunately.
I forgot to mention that the kids' demo team has our version of a "fancy" uniform--blue with a big eagle on the back and "Demo Team" as well as the surname. The kids also can have sleeve patches for straight A's and tournament wins. None of those allowed for the adults, though.
Brandon Fisher
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Sorry if this has already been explained I didn't read the whole thread.
In okinawa the stripes on the belt are as follows
1 stripe - denotes Renshi
2 stripes - denotes Kyoshi
3 stripes - denotes Hanshi
Takayoshi Nagamine the son of Shoshin Nagamine founder of Matsubayashi Shorin ryu has 4 stripes on his belt now which denots Hanshi-Sei (still trying to figure out the specifics on that one).
In other schools those holding 7th & 8th Dan and the title of Kyoshi wear the red and white paneled belt. Those with the rank of 9th & 10th Dan with the title of Hanshi wear a solid red belt.
Some just choose to put their title in kanji on their belt also.
The split (half & half) red and white belts that we call renshi belts in the USA are not used in Okinawa at all nor mainland japan.
Isshin ryu normally follows the kyoshi red & white belt at 7th dan and red belt at 9th dan in Okinawa. Some of the USA based associations use the red & white belt at 6th dan.
In okinawa the stripes on the belt are as follows
1 stripe - denotes Renshi
2 stripes - denotes Kyoshi
3 stripes - denotes Hanshi
Takayoshi Nagamine the son of Shoshin Nagamine founder of Matsubayashi Shorin ryu has 4 stripes on his belt now which denots Hanshi-Sei (still trying to figure out the specifics on that one).
In other schools those holding 7th & 8th Dan and the title of Kyoshi wear the red and white paneled belt. Those with the rank of 9th & 10th Dan with the title of Hanshi wear a solid red belt.
Some just choose to put their title in kanji on their belt also.
The split (half & half) red and white belts that we call renshi belts in the USA are not used in Okinawa at all nor mainland japan.
Isshin ryu normally follows the kyoshi red & white belt at 7th dan and red belt at 9th dan in Okinawa. Some of the USA based associations use the red & white belt at 6th dan.
OP
chrispillertkd
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Brandon Fisher
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No problem
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My school is a Shotokan dojo, and we use black belts for all yudansha ranks. The only adornment is the school name in Kanji on one side, and the yudansha rank holder's name in Katakana on the other side.
Some folks simply prefer to have a plain black belt (no embroidery). That's fine by me as well.
In one of my previous systems (Shuri Ryu), black belts for all yudansha rank holders, although 6-8th dan holders could wear a belt with alternating white and red vertical bands, and 9-10th dan holders used a solid red belt. Most of the time, though, even the 6-10th dan holders would use their black belts, except for very formal occasions.
Some folks simply prefer to have a plain black belt (no embroidery). That's fine by me as well.
In one of my previous systems (Shuri Ryu), black belts for all yudansha rank holders, although 6-8th dan holders could wear a belt with alternating white and red vertical bands, and 9-10th dan holders used a solid red belt. Most of the time, though, even the 6-10th dan holders would use their black belts, except for very formal occasions.
Martin h
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In kyokushin we use black belts for all dan grades, you just add stripes for each dan. The stripes are golden, and the only other adornment is a embroidered gold colored kanji.
There is just no tradition of switching to other belts colors or patterns (red, checkered or whatever).
Many just wear a simple black belt and save the striped one for ceremonial occasions. It is the same in basically all japanese styles and organizations.
If you find someone wearing a different color belt at high grades, it is usually a european or american, from a non-japanese based style/organization.
Its a bit like all those multipatterned DoGi´s (I tend to think of them as "clown" DoGi´s) you see. Things like that are just not used in karate in japan.
There is just no tradition of switching to other belts colors or patterns (red, checkered or whatever).
Many just wear a simple black belt and save the striped one for ceremonial occasions. It is the same in basically all japanese styles and organizations.
If you find someone wearing a different color belt at high grades, it is usually a european or american, from a non-japanese based style/organization.
Its a bit like all those multipatterned DoGi´s (I tend to think of them as "clown" DoGi´s) you see. Things like that are just not used in karate in japan.
Brandon Fisher
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Mainland Japan they do use only black belts however Okinawa is not the same. Just wanted to clarify that it is not all of Japan.
TimoS
Master of Arts
Very true. I've seen a picture from some okinawan dojo, where just about everyone was wearing either a red/white or solid red belt. I've also seen video (or maybe it was photos) of a high-ranking Shorin sensei (maybe Shorinkan, but can't be sure) wear a purple dogi
Brandon Fisher
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Timo,
Yes the group you are thinking of is Shorinkan. The "purple" dogi is are actually maroon and used strictly for kobudo. To answer yoru question most all the kobayashi shorin ryu groups use the red and white belt and red belt for more than ceremonial use.
Yes the group you are thinking of is Shorinkan. The "purple" dogi is are actually maroon and used strictly for kobudo. To answer yoru question most all the kobayashi shorin ryu groups use the red and white belt and red belt for more than ceremonial use.
Bill Mattocks kind of hit the nail on the head, every system is different and can differ further by school.
In my system it is white, blue, blue with black stripe, green, green with black stripe, brown, brown with black stripe, black, black with a red stripe for every dan level above first black and that is just one type of karate.
When I was in Bujinkan Ninjutsu (way back when that was still used) it was white, green for six levels and then brown for two and then black; that was it..... Kind of liked that, it was simple and less rivalry due to color of your belt, most people were just green...
My .02 only.
In my system it is white, blue, blue with black stripe, green, green with black stripe, brown, brown with black stripe, black, black with a red stripe for every dan level above first black and that is just one type of karate.
When I was in Bujinkan Ninjutsu (way back when that was still used) it was white, green for six levels and then brown for two and then black; that was it..... Kind of liked that, it was simple and less rivalry due to color of your belt, most people were just green...
My .02 only.
The ranks where I have trained:
Goju Ryu:
white
yellow
orange
green
blue
brown
mudansha (brown)
black
Dan rank was signified by changes to the coloration of the crest.
Kids had half ranks, signified by two-tone belts (white-yellow, yellow-orange, etc)
Kyokushin
white
orange
blue
yellow
green
brown
black
Half ranks are marked with tape around the belt.
Dan ranks are signified by gold bars at one end of the belt, one per dan.
Aikido:
Kyus 7 through 1 wear white belts.
Dans wear black belts, with a hakema over them so that the belt is not seen. There are no indicators for degree.
Goju Ryu:
white
yellow
orange
green
blue
brown
mudansha (brown)
black
Dan rank was signified by changes to the coloration of the crest.
Kids had half ranks, signified by two-tone belts (white-yellow, yellow-orange, etc)
Kyokushin
white
orange
blue
yellow
green
brown
black
Half ranks are marked with tape around the belt.
Dan ranks are signified by gold bars at one end of the belt, one per dan.
Aikido:
Kyus 7 through 1 wear white belts.
Dans wear black belts, with a hakema over them so that the belt is not seen. There are no indicators for degree.
punisher73
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Here is a picture of Angi Ueza in the red and white belt
punisher73
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As far as what color etc. Each organization can/will have a different color usage for their kyu ranks.
I studied Aikido a LONG time ago before starting my current style and for the kyu ranks it was white/blue/purple/brown with each having different kyu levels even though the color stayed the same.
In other Isshin ryu organizations it goes white/yellow/orange/blue/green/purple/brown/black
In Advincula's organization he sticks with the ranking system that Shimabuku used later on. white/green/brown/black. He also sets up the system that it takes about 3 years to blackbelt. One of Shimabuku's goals was to develop a system that was quick and easy to learn, but would provide years to master.
As Victor pointed out. Rank is really meaningless outside of your particular group/organization. There is too much diversity among people as to what a black belt means in the first place. For example, in the US if you earned your blackbelt in a year people would say that it was from a McDojo and say the belt was worthless, yet if you enroll in the JKA's university program it is set up that you earn a blackbelt in a year. To them, it means that you are ready to start learning and does not denote a mastery of material.
I studied Aikido a LONG time ago before starting my current style and for the kyu ranks it was white/blue/purple/brown with each having different kyu levels even though the color stayed the same.
In other Isshin ryu organizations it goes white/yellow/orange/blue/green/purple/brown/black
In Advincula's organization he sticks with the ranking system that Shimabuku used later on. white/green/brown/black. He also sets up the system that it takes about 3 years to blackbelt. One of Shimabuku's goals was to develop a system that was quick and easy to learn, but would provide years to master.
As Victor pointed out. Rank is really meaningless outside of your particular group/organization. There is too much diversity among people as to what a black belt means in the first place. For example, in the US if you earned your blackbelt in a year people would say that it was from a McDojo and say the belt was worthless, yet if you enroll in the JKA's university program it is set up that you earn a blackbelt in a year. To them, it means that you are ready to start learning and does not denote a mastery of material.
