Which style of Karate is right for me?

[Gruenewald]

I come from a strong grappling background (Wrestling and Judo), and now I want to establish a strong foundation in striking. Karate is near the top of my list at the moment, however I need some help differentiating the different styles of karate there are and which of them would be most suited for my purposes. I was originally looking into Wado-Ryu Karate, which I was then informed is sometimes considered a branch of Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujitsu:

Due to it's origins, Wado Ryu Karate is sometimes considered a branch of Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, which is probably what you are refering to. It features more circular movement and a higher emphasis on grappling (locks, throws, takedowns etc) than other karate systems.

I was looking for something that would blend nicely with the grappling techniques I know, however I'm not sure I want to go so far as to do something that's almost Jujitsu; I still plan on continuing my studies in judo throughout my time doing Karate (if it happens). Also I would rather stay away from strict, ultra-rigid styles (that emphasize kata a lot) and focus more on sparring and application. Can anybody help me?

 

[Chris Parker]

First things first: What is available to you? Without knowing which systems are in your area, a lot of what could be said could be considered moot. I would also look to broaden your ideas in terms of karate (if that is what you are after... honestly, from your other threads, I would probably be looking more to something like kickboxing or Muay Thai. Still quite removed from self defence, but closer to what you are asking for).

You say that you want a system that is more focused on applications and sparring than kata... might I ask what you think the applications are applications of? The essence of karate is it's kata, that is the heart of the art, it's where you find what makes it karate, it's where the philosophy and movement is expressed. Sparring really isn't karate, in a real sense of the art. It's just a tool for expressing the system against another practitioner. It has definate benefits, but it's really not the art. That said, systems such as Kyokushinkai (and it's off-shoots, such as Seido and Ashihara) are known for their hard sparring, so they could work for you. Shukokai was developed by Tani Sensei to a great degree to give greater success in competition from Shito Ryu (it's full title is Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate Do). Shotokan is probably the most "traditional" in movement and formal approach out of the so-called Japanese Karate systems. Okinawan systems such as Isshin Ryu have a reputation for very hard training and conditioning, and for being more "complete" systems than their Japanese bretheren, but the focus is really going to be more on kata and application (bunkai) of such.

Hope that helps.

 

[elder999]

I was looking for something that would blend nicely with the grappling techniques I know, however I'm not sure I want to go so far as to do something that's almost Jujitsu; I still plan on continuing my studies in judo throughout my time doing Karate (if it happens). Also I would rather stay away from strict, ultra-rigid styles (that emphasize kata a lot) and focus more on sparring and application. Can anybody help me?

THere's wing-chun in Moncton, I thought....it's relatively easy to learn, has good striking, blends well with judo and knives, and was Bruce Lee's base system for JKD.....

 

[rlp271]

From what you're asking for, my first instinct is to tell you to look for a Kyokushin school or one of its offshoots as mentioned above. Other options, a very old-school Goju-ryu school. You will focus on kata at first, but a whole wide world of pain and conditioning opens up when you stay around long enough. They're really big on forearm and hand conditioning. Look up Morio Higaonna, and they have a few clips of him beating on a rock for example.

Isshinryu is my base style, and I've got to say, you need to find a solid school if you want to do it. Not all Isshinryu schools are created equal. That's true of all styles, but it seems like there's a huge variation between Isshinryu schools. There seem to be a few people on here that do it, and they might say that their school is great, which is probably true, but that isn't the majority from what I've seen. That's really the state of Isshinryu in the US, not sure about Canada.

 

[Tez3]

From what you're asking for, my first instinct is to tell you to look for a Kyokushin school or one of its offshoots as mentioned above. Other options, a very old-school Goju-ryu school. You will focus on kata at first, but a whole wide world of pain and conditioning opens up when you stay around long enough. They're really big on forearm and hand conditioning. Look up Morio Higaonna, and they have a few clips of him beating on a rock for example.

Isshinryu is my base style, and I've got to say, you need to find a solid school if you want to do it. Not all Isshinryu schools are created equal. That's true of all styles, but it seems like there's a huge variation between Isshinryu schools. There seem to be a few people on here that do it, and they might say that their school is great, which is probably true, but that isn't the majority from what I've seen. That's really the state of Isshinryu in the US, not sure about Canada.

Why? Do rocks attack people a lot?

 

[Gruenewald]

First things first: What is available to you? Without knowing which systems are in your area, a lot of what could be said could be considered moot. I would also look to broaden your ideas in terms of karate (if that is what you are after... honestly, from your other threads, I would probably be looking more to something like kickboxing or Muay Thai. Still quite removed from self defence, but closer to what you are asking for).

Currently I'm living in Moncton (NB, Canada) where I believe there are only a few schools, all of them "Tsuruoka", which I'm fairly sure means that it originated from Sensei Masami Tsuruoka? I know that one of them is run by a 7th dan who trained under Tsuruoka-san, the others I'm not sure about. Is that indicative of style in any way? Regardless, I'll be moving to Halifax (NS, Canada) in the fall where there will doubtless be a much wider assortment of options for me (I saw a few Kyokushin, Shotokan, a ton I've never heard of before). If I do decide to do Karate I don't doubt that I'll be able to find a good dojo somewhere in Nova Scotia.

I have been looking into Western Boxing and Muay Thai, and may do some more research on them. Sounds as though there are no good Muay Thai schools in Halifax from what I've heard, though. Bunch of boxing gyms, some Wing Chun and a lot of Karate as mentioned above.

You say that you want a system that is more focused on applications and sparring than kata... might I ask what you think the applications are applications of? The essence of karate is it's kata, that is the heart of the art, it's where you find what makes it karate, it's where the philosophy and movement is expressed. Sparring really isn't karate, in a real sense of the art. It's just a tool for expressing the system against another practitioner. It has definate benefits, but it's really not the art. That said, systems such as Kyokushinkai (and it's off-shoots, such as Seido and Ashihara) are known for their hard sparring, so they could work for you. Shukokai was developed by Tani Sensei to a great degree to give greater success in competition from Shito Ryu (it's full title is Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate Do). Shotokan is probably the most "traditional" in movement and formal approach out of the so-called Japanese Karate systems. Okinawan systems such as Isshin Ryu have a reputation for very hard training and conditioning, and for being more "complete" systems than their Japanese bretheren, but the focus is really going to be more on kata and application (bunkai) of such.

Hope that helps.

From what you're asking for, my first instinct is to tell you to look for a Kyokushin school or one of its offshoots as mentioned above. Other options, a very old-school Goju-ryu school. You will focus on kata at first, but a whole wide world of pain and conditioning opens up when you stay around long enough. They're really big on forearm and hand conditioning. Look up Morio Higaonna, and they have a few clips of him beating on a rock for example.

Isshinryu is my base style, and I've got to say, you need to find a solid school if you want to do it. Not all Isshinryu schools are created equal. That's true of all styles, but it seems like there's a huge variation between Isshinryu schools. There seem to be a few people on here that do it, and they might say that their school is great, which is probably true, but that isn't the majority from what I've seen. That's really the state of Isshinryu in the US, not sure about Canada.

Thanks, very informative. I had heard that Shotokan was very "traditional" in that it was quite rigid, which is what I'm trying to avoid. As mentioned above I saw some Kyukushin dojos listed in NS, so they may serve my purposes.

There's wing-chun in Moncton, I thought....it's relatively easy to learn, has good striking, blends well with judo and knives, and was Bruce Lee's base system for JKD.....

So there is! I'd never seen it listed on any provincial directories so I figured it must not exist. Never occured to me to simply try "wing chun moncton" on Google... I have been and still am quite interested in Wing Chun, but the question is whether I should attempt to learn it here in Moncton (which I'll be leaving from in about 6 weeks) or wait until I move to Halifax where there will be a larger selection of schools to choose from. Also it may be awkward to start in Moncton then so shortly thereafter move to a different school while I'm still being taught the basics.

 

[rlp271]

Why? Do rocks attack people a lot?

Haha, it's a conditioning/crazy person thing. It's a step in whatever direction you want from makiwara practice. When I think about Higaonna a quote from Rocky IV comes to mind, "Whatever he hits, he destroys."

 

[K-man]

I was looking for something that would blend nicely with the grappling techniques I know, however I'm not sure I want to go so far as to do something that's almost Jujitsu; I still plan on continuing my studies in judo throughout my time doing Karate (if it happens). Also I would rather stay away from strict, ultra-rigid styles (that emphasize kata a lot) and focus more on sparring and application. Can anybody help me?

As Chris pointed out, application is based on kata and a style based on kata is not necessarily rigid. In fact, all karate is based on kata. The problem you have with karate is that most of it is sports based which means that it is practised at distance. Most schools I have seen don't do any grappling at all. My classes are probably more than 50% grappling but always with strikes, elbows, knees, footsweeps and low kicks included. That is the distance that traditional karate was designed to be used. Kata applications contain all the grappling techniques, just most people don't recognise them. I would suggest you visit all the karate schools in your area, watch what they do and ask about their training. In a good school it doesn't matter what the style. If a school has a good teacher you will experience a wide range of techniques and your grappling skills will be most useful. If you pick a school with a sports focus you will still learn to punch but, IMHO, not as well as a more traditional school.

 

[Omar B]

I could not agree more K-man. A lot of application from kata is taught, sometimes it's taught simply as kata and left up to the student to dig deeper but all karate is based upon kata. Those who scoff at kata simply don't understand it's aim or karate in general I think.

 

[Cirdan]

I train both Ju Jutsu and traditional Wado Ryu myself. I find them to mesh very well since they both are based in the same principles and only differ somewhat in expression. Still, it requires some time and reflection to connect the dots.
Most karate dojos spend a lot of time on kata however, if that is not your cup of tea perhaps you should look into kickboxing.

 

[Tez3]

Haha, it's a conditioning/crazy person thing. It's a step in whatever direction you want from makiwara practice. When I think about Higaonna a quote from Rocky IV comes to mind, "Whatever he hits, he destroys."

Yeah but you do know Rocky is fictional right?

 

[Grenadier]

If all you wanted was the sparring aspect, then the advice the others gave you on going with Kyokushin Kai Karate would be a safe choice. Keep in mind, though, that even Kyokushin uses kata in their training.

Shotokan Karate would do very well for you. I do realize that you stated you didn't want to put an emphasis on kata, and would rather focus on the kumite aspect, but keep in mind, that kata provides you a way to practice a technique with the utmost of accuracy and perfection, and it's through the repeated practice, that the technique becomes second nature.

Shotokan Karate is a hard, striking style. If you have a good teacher, and if you're a willing student, then there's absolutely no reason why you can't become an excellent striker with dedicated training. Towards the higher levels, you'll start to focus on some of the grappling aspects.

Wado Ryu is closer to Shotokan Karate, with a blend of Ju Jutsu thrown in. It's more of a striking system, though, than a grappling system, and would compliment your grappling skills quite nicely.

 

[dancingalone]

Haha, it's a conditioning/crazy person thing. It's a step in whatever direction you want from makiwara practice. When I think about Higaonna a quote from Rocky IV comes to mind, "Whatever he hits, he destroys."

Weapon conditioning is common in Naha karate styles. It's a carry over from the Chinese styles they derive from. The idea is to increase the destructive potential of your hands by hardening them against a hard surface over time. Obviously, it's not for everyone, and you only want to do this under careful supervision from an experienced sensei, but it's part of traditional tode practice. I don't punch rocks (did trees when I was younger) but I do condition against a makiwara. Same idea.

 

[Tez3]

Weapon conditioning is common in Naha karate styles. It's a carry over from the Chinese styles they derive from. The idea is to increase the destructive potential of your hands by hardening them against a hard surface over time. Obviously, it's not for everyone, and you only want to do this under careful supervision from an experienced sensei, but it's part of traditional tode practice. I don't punch rocks (did trees when I was younger) but I do condition against a makiwara. Same idea.

It's fine if you don't mind arthritis in your hands in later life.

 

[dancingalone]

It's fine if you don't mind arthritis in your hands in later life.

You know better than that, Tez, to overgeneralize. My sensei has rather huge punching knuckles and he has no arthristis and he's in his sixties. Still has a fairly successful acupuncture practice too.

 

[Tez3]

You know better than that, Tez, to overgeneralize. My sensei has rather huge punching knuckles and he has no arthristis and he's in his sixties. Still has a fairly successful acupuncture practice too.

Are you saying sixties is old, I meant later life not middle age!

 

[dancingalone]

Life expectancy in the US is 78.2 years. It's around 80 years for the UK. I would classify one's sixties as "later life".

In any case, you're still overgeneralizing about hand conditioning. It's obviously something that should be performed only under knowledgeable supervision, but that's true of much in Okinawan karate, like tuite or practicing with kama/nunchaku or even good old sanchin kata with its forceful breath control. If you have access to proper instruction, these things are something you can consider making a part of your life, otherwise stick to something else.

 

[Grenadier]

For someone to simply decide to run up to a bag full of sand, and repeatedly pound his hands into the bag, without treatment, will usually result in nerve damage to the hands.

While this might not be so evident in one's younger years, one need only take a look at older folks who had done this practice in the past. Many of these folks can't even hold a cup of coffee without spilling it, due to tremors, shakes, etc.

Does this mean that hand conditioning (or even bone conditioning) is bad? Not necessarily. It does take some research, though, as well as proper practice. I've seen some folks who have a great deal of knowledge on these matters, and they haven't lost a single bit of dexterity throughout the years. These are the guys who have rock-hard bones, yet are still able to perform their daily tasks with fine coordination.

 

[Tez3]

Life expectancy in the US is 78.2 years. It's around 80 years for the UK. I would classify one's sixties as "later life".

In any case, you're still overgeneralizing about hand conditioning. It's obviously something that should be performed only under knowledgeable supervision, but that's true of much in Okinawan karate, like tuite or practicing with kama/nunchaku or even good old sanchin kata with its forceful breath control. If you have access to proper instruction, these things are something you can consider making a part of your life, otherwise stick to something else.

Well, I only made the comment 'if you don't mind arthritis in later life which I don't think was actually saying you will definitely get it. It was a general comment not made totally seriously but one that may cause people to think for a moment before going out and bashing stones, trees etc willy nilly. I don't think a few words can be overgeneralising and if I want to think of myself as middle aged I certainly will whatever the life expectancy is anywhere!
I don't see the point in bashing inanimate objects myself preferring the fight clever techniques or just plain running away but if people want to do them they should make sure they aren't doing themselves any damage first.

 

[dancingalone]

For someone to simply decide to run up to a bag full of sand, and repeatedly pound his hands into the bag, without treatment, will usually result in nerve damage to the hands.

While this might not be so evident in one's younger years, one need only take a look at older folks who had done this practice in the past. Many of these folks can't even hold a cup of coffee without spilling it, due to tremors, shakes, etc.

We can't make a scientific conclusion that punching sand leads to nerve damage with a proper study or trial. All we have is anecdotal evidence that some people may have injured themselves in this way. Which by the way, who are these people? The only people I have heard of who have this problem are boxers, not karate-ka.

I certainly won't dispute that one can damage one's hands through conditioning, but I think the argument being put forth is entirely without scientific or medical basis to back it.

Does this mean that hand conditioning (or even bone conditioning) is bad? Not necessarily. It does take some research, though, as well as proper practice. I've seen some folks who have a great deal of knowledge on these matters, and they haven't lost a single bit of dexterity throughout the years. These are the guys who have rock-hard bones, yet are still able to perform their daily tasks with fine coordination.

Yes, I believe my teacher is one of them. Hopefully, I'll be in similarly good shape when I hit my sixties.