Q an A

[Kirk]

Originally posted by KENPOJOE
Hi folks!
Brian asked me these questions this morning so I thought i'd answer them here as well...

1.Mr. Parker did indeed receive his black belt from Prof. Chow and the actual certificate he received is featured in the "Memories of Ed Parker" book. I'm in the process of relocating my studio so if someone would be so kind as to look and place the date on this thread?

June 5th, 1953

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/kirknchristy/EKPDiploma.jpg

 

[KENPOJOE]

D Hall wrote,
"Joe and Mr. C;

Would either of you comment on the stuff in Infinite Insights that was put in "wrong?"

I took Book 5 into Mr. Duffy last night to go over the salutation. It seems that the open hand signifies the side you are doing, however we always use the Left and then Right open hands to announce the form but then proceed to do the Right side first.

So was that put in "wrong" to trip people up? Or do I misunderstand the Salutation.

And is there anything else that was "snuck in" like that?"

Hi Doug!
There are several typos in the infinite insights series,mostly due to re-editing of the original documents. Originally, the forms were supposed to be pictures of Lee Wedlake, but were redone as drawings by Ed Parker Jr. Since the pictures were of Mr. Wedlake,perhaps you can email him for more details?

There are 2 schools of thought regarding the American Kenpo salutation.
One states that you signify with your right fingers pointing to the left hand so you can show "the right side of the form" and do opposite for the left side. However, you must retract the hand to chamber if you are to go through the full salutation at that point.

The second method has you pointing at the side you are performing [so that you point to the right hand first, then the left] I use the later method because you can move from point of origin from the signifying hand

from the left side. for a smoother transition.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE​

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by brianhunter
1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?
2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and impliment his own system of kenpo?
3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?
Thanks much Sir, Brian

Some really good questions....... I had to do a little checking.... but here are my best "guesses".....

Originally posted by brianhunter
1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?

He had trained in several things including boxing, wrestling, and judo for about 6 or seven years prior to his black belt. So I would say close to 3 or 4 years to get his Black Belt (which was in '53 {he was 22}).

Originally posted by brianhunter
2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and implement his own system of kenpo?

This was about the year 1956 or 1957 when he started his studio or shortly after.
[so about 8 to 10 years of experience]

Originally posted by brianhunter
3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?

This was on or very close to the Internationals in 1976 or 1977.
{approximately 27 to 30 years}

These time lines are probably close however, the "time and era" that Ed Parker was in was critical. He laid the foundation of much of the material and thinking for "EVERYONE AFTER" if you look at what was going on at the time, he developed and organized much of what "all" have in some way, shape, or form, borrowed, rearranged or built upon. It will be extremely difficult if not impossible to duplicate what Ed Parker developed, no matter what the time frame. To compare today's 10ths with Ed Parker's accomplishments is silly to me.

Ed Parker IS and always will be the "Senior" Grandmaster and "Founder" of this system and train of thought {American Kenpo}, no one should take those titles that belong truthfully to him. Now, there could be Senior Masters of the Art {10th Degrees} and if you have your own offshoot Association be a Grandmaster of that group with no problem. But, "Senior Grandmaster and Founder" I feel belong ONLY to Mr. Parker unless your system is at least 60 % totally different than his..... (none today are, that I know of yet).

Ed Parker, was "THE" spark that started the flame that started the fire which now has become American Kenpo and all of its offspring.

Just my opinion.....
:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by cdhall
Would you comment on the stuff in Infinite Insights that was put in "wrong?"

ok

Originally posted by cdhall
I looked Book 5 to go over the salutation. It seems that the open hand signifies the side you are doing, however we always use the Left and then Right open hands to announce the form but then proceed to do the Right side first.

No, that is incorrect, it was a misprint. One thing that you must realize it that at the time of that publication the method of mock up was "cut and paste" not the clean digital editing of today. So there were unfortunately several typos and cut an paste errors.

The last revision that Ed Parker worked on was: to point to the left hand, finger signal, then point to the right hand, finger signal with the appropriate "finger announcement" of the form you were doing, then from the right side you come up to the right shoulder and advance with the cat and warrior/scholar presentation and so on.

Many have created "variations" to indicate performing specifically one side or the other in many different ways over the years, but this was his last salutation of choice.

Originally posted by cdhall
So was that put in "wrong" to trip people up? Or do I misunderstand the Salutation.

I believe that it was just an oversight. However, Ed Parker was known to throw in little differences to see who was learning what from where [he did this a lot when he was asked to film things in the early years].

:asian:

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
...
The last revision that Ed Parker worked on was: to point to the left hand, finger signal, then point to the right hand, finger signal with the appropriate "finger announcement" of the form you were doing, then from the right side you come up to the right shoulder and advance with the cat and warrior/scholar presentation and so on....

Thank you both, sirs. This is how Mr. Duffy explained it to me. However this also seems the opposite of how KenpoJoe just explained it.

KenpoJoe, would you confirm for me if the above is the way you do it, or if your "finger pointing fist" is across your body in front of your left hand when you then draw it back across your right shoulder to begin your salute.

I am just curious to know if I understood KenpoJoe correctly. Thank you.
:asian:

 

[Kirk]

1. I know it varies, and I know it has so many factors involved, but in your opinion, an average yet hard working student, how
long till black?

2. Why does the answer to number 1 vary so much among
seniors?

3. Why do some feel it's necessary to make it take MUCH MUCH
longer to earn 1, than it did theirs? Was something added to
the system to make you less effective at the varied ranks?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kirk
1. I know it varies, and I know it has so many factors involved, but in your opinion, an average yet hard working student, how
long till black?

In my experience with the way I train people it takes about 4-6 years. This does vary from case to case but on an average this is close.

Originally posted by Kirk
2. Why does the answer to number 1 vary so much among
seniors?

I don't think the word "seniors" is the issue but rather "instructors". Different instructors {Seniors or not} all have different perspectives and backgrounds on training. I think mostly it depends on your lineage and personal training experiences and what each individual wants.

Originally posted by Kirk
3. Why do some feel it's necessary to make it take MUCH - MUCH
longer to earn 1, than it did theirs?

That you will have to ask each instructor individually. As for my personal answer...... I wish someone would earn one under me in record breaking time, hell, if they put out the effort and can do the material I have no problem promoting an eager, enthusiastic, knowledgeable, and skilled student..... I dream of those students....... LOL

Originally posted by Kirk
Was something added to the system to make you less effective at the varied ranks?

There was a lot of technical information developed in the 80's. This information has now crept into most of the curriculums. With today's communication tools, such as the internet, we have faster access to much more than at any of our prior times in our evolution {students today ask technical questions they have got from the internet to some instructors that the instructor has not heard of before}. I think this has something to do with the length of time in ranks today.

but that is just my opinion........
:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Prof C,

I think you hit the nail on the head with your last answer in the previous post. The volume of information available is staggering ... whoops, I just staggered, well, I listed a bit to port, but am back on course now.

Really looking forward to next month. I hope everything works out so you can visit Austin.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
I hope everything works out so you can visit Austin.

Me too

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kirk
Me too

:boing2:

 

[Goldendragon7]

 

[Elfan]

What are the dimensional stages of action?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Elfan
What are the dimensional stages of action?

That is the updated term for the old phrase "Bridging the Gap"

1) Out of Range
2) In Range
3) Contact Penetration
4) Contact Manipulation

:asian:

 

[Elfan]

What constitutes "in range." That I can make contact but not penetrate in a meaningful way?

Also, when did you say the DSA was developed as a teaching tool?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Elfan
What constitutes "in range." That I can make contact but not penetrate in a meaningful way?

Yes, you can make contact and it "can" be meaningful (grabbing, controlling, etc.) depending upon your definition of meaningful. lol

Originally posted by Elfan
Also, when did you say the DSA was developed as a teaching tool?

I don't know that I did, but I would say around 1986.

:asian:

 

[Elfan]

hmm well if I can grab *and* control woudn't that put me at contact manipulation?

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

What constitutes "in range." That I can make contact but not penetrate in a meaningful way?

You are correct. In range is a surface phenomenon. This simply means that you can, by way of foot maneuvers and stance changes, make surface contact (minor strike, grab, etc.). Think of contact penetration as one of those bunker buster bombs. When you are in contact penetration range you are not simply able to hit the target, but you are able to damage the target by striking 3-6 inches beyond the point of surface contact.

Contact manipulation is simply a range where you are ALREADY in contact with that individual (Crossing Talon, Gripping talon, the Clinch, etc.).

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Elfan
hmm well if I can grab *and* control woudn't that put me at contact manipulation?

Not necessarily....... just because you can grab and control momentarily, does not clearly define exactly "what" range you or a portion or you (say hand or foot) are at. Manipulation is the closest range then works outward to contact penetration, then in range then out of range....... but then again, you know this.

:asian:

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I would be interested in looking at what he did.

Ok, I've finally written it down. It probably needs some rewording to make it clearer, but I didn't know how to write it better...

It's name comes from the tiger claws you execute throughout the form, and also because you execute all the movements breathing slowly and with tension instead of power, except for the kick.

The form/set is done almost completely in a low horse stance, or at least lower than a regular horse stance.

1.- From attention stance, step left into a horse stance while doing a right horizontal claw (palm loocking downwards) and left vertical claw (as if checking) moving slowly from right to left.
2.- Reverse the motion and do a left to right left horizontal claw and right vertical claw.
3.- Cross your hands while going upwards and then uncross at head level to deliver double downward claws.
4.- Do double downward claws (they follow parallel paths).
5.- Step to 6:00 with right foot into a very low dragon stance (it is like a reverse bow). Do a right upward claw simultaneously (it must be a circular clockwise movement) and follow the motion until both arms are parallel and facing each other (left over right). Finish movement by tearing apart with both hands. Right hand must now be back and high, and ready to attack; and left, low in front, checking.
6.- Pivot counterclockwise into a left forward bow, do a high front right kick and land smoothly to 12:00. Do double downward claws.
7.- Step back with right foot and then to 3:00 into a horse stance, crossing your hands while going upwards at the same time and then uncrossing at head level to deliver double downward claws.
8.- Do a left to right left horizontal claw and right vertical claw, as in 2.
9.- Do right a to left right horizontal claw and left vertical claw, as in 1.
10.- Salute with left palm over right fist and close.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Ok, I've finally written the form down. It's name "Tiger Breathing" comes from the tiger claws you execute throughout the form, and also because you execute all the movements breathing slowly and with tension instead of power.

Thanks mucho! This should be fun to play with.

again thanks KenpoMachine for taking the time and effort!!

:asian: