Push Hands Fail

[JowGaWolf9]

I also don't believe Song can do anything different here. The moment that your opponent releases his grips, the moment that the connection is broken.

I agree with this. Anyone who has sparred with me knows that when someone grabs me, can tell you that I escape the grip and not the contact. If I lose physical contact, then I lose the tactile sense. When this happens, the body becomes blind. As long as I have contact, I can sense what my opponent is trying to go, or what they are trying to do.

This is one of principles of Martial Arts. It is why the arms are kept light and relaxed and not tense. Tense body is like yelling what you are trying to do. Relaxed body is like a whisper in a noisy room.

When someone grabs my wrist. I think "where are they trying to go?" They do not want my wrist, they want something else. Grabbing my wrist is for the purpose of moving it out of the way so that they can get to somewhere else.

This is why many wrist grab counters involve locking your opponent's grip so that they cannot release it.

WindWalker's Video in post #80 does one thing that most people forget to factor.
1. it's an explanation of a concept
2. The person assisting has one goal and purpose in mind. Grab the Arm and don't let go. In fighting it is almost always the opposite. Grab the arm for a short period of time and then go somewhere else or do something else that has nothing to do with wrist. It is common

If I'm keeping contact, then I it's usually because my goal is to restrict my opponent's movement, while positioning myself to have an advantage in movement. I think this is universal even in striking.

For example, Close in boxing. Notice the contact. I also think this is basic fighting concept with many levels of understanding.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

You’re redirecting the thread.

The condition was a double wrist grab in a push hands context. The demos were addressing that specific situation, not open-ended fighting scenarios.

Shifting it to “what someone might do in a fight” changes the problem and avoids the original question. The OP was about why something shown in a push hands demo did not work as well with a stranger.

What George Xu is addressing with “emptiness” is one way of understanding what may have happened. The teacher may no longer have been “empty.” Once he became goal-oriented and tried to throw the other person out, his timing changed, he did not get the same outcome he had with his familiar demo partner.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

The teacher may no longer have been “empty.” Once he became goal-oriented and tried to throw the other person out, his timing changed, he did not get the same outcome he had with his familiar demo partner.

There is nothing wrong to become goal-oriented. He just needs to set his opponent up fist. He tried to wait for opportunity. He didn't try to create opportunity.

 

[Same Trick74 25]

During PH, if your opponent's right-hand grabs on your left wrist, his left-hand grabs on your right wrist, what will you do?

If you rotate your arms and try to break your opponent's grips, his both hands can then slide along your arms and reach to your elbow joints. From there his hands can reach to your shoulder, head, or waist.

My reflexes wouldn’t allow such grab to happen

 

[Same Trick74 25]

This is what I'm trying to say all these years. When your opponent grabs on your wrists, he is "not committed". He just wants you to do something so he can take advantage on it. The moment that you try to do something, he will release his wrist grips and go to your elbow or shoulder.

This also apply to PH training as well. If your opponent breaks away from your am contact, you have to obtain that contact back again in order to continue your PH training.

In my mind PH isn’t grappling, if one doesn’t follow and break the intended rules of the exercise then it’s open for more things to be broken.
Long time ago as a student I was pushing hands with a teacher, he came in very close and managed to pull my jacket from down and upp over my head(seen in some hockey brawls), instinctively I threw a right overhand(or what it’s called, ”haymaker” maybe ?) hit him smack over his mouth, a bloody result, the session was stopped.

 

[JowGaWolf9]

You’re redirecting the thread.

The condition was a double wrist grab in a push hands context. The demos were addressing that specific situation, not open-ended fighting scenarios.

Shifting it to “what someone might do in a fight” changes the problem and avoids the original question. The OP was about why something shown in a push hands demo did not work as well with a stranger.

What George Xu is addressing with “emptiness” is one way of understanding what may have happened. The teacher may no longer have been “empty.” Once he became goal-oriented and tried to throw the other person out, his timing changed, he did not get the same outcome he had with his familiar demo partner.

I don't think it's redirecting. You would still have to look at the video and determine

1. What is he showing? Function in fighting or Function in concept?
2. What structure are you using it against. A person who has only goal to see if he can hold on, or one who is willing to release his grip when he knows that he should.

I'm always an applications orient person so EVERYTHING that I talk about is from that perspective. For me, Martial Arts Concept should not exist without Function, because the concept is born from function. Maybe it's just me, but the way the student was grabbing the teacher's arm did not look like Tai Chi vs Tai Chi. Push hands.

But anyway. I only have one mode and one mind set when it comes to Martial Arts. Function takes priority. Understand the Function -> Understand the Concept. I do not believe that it flows in the other direction Understand the concept -> Understand the function.

 

[JowGaWolf9]

n my mind PH isn’t grappling, if one doesn’t follow and break the intended rules of the exercise then it’s open for more things to be broken.

It changes when you apply it to sparring against another structure that isn't the same as yours. As for open for more things to be broken. My guess is that's more of a risk with System A vs System A type training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

My reflexes wouldn’t allow such grab to happen

That's the best solution IMO.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

The demos were addressing that specific situation, not open-ended fighting scenarios.

What does a PH demo intend to address?

How do you deal with your opponent's "arm dragging"? Do you think this question has anything to do with which MA system that you may train?

You may like to address a question from a style point of view. I like to address a question from application point of view instead.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

You may like to address a question from a style point of view. I like to address a question from application point of view instead.

That’s not really an application point of view — it’s reframing the discussion to fit your own criteria. The OP was about a specific push hands situation and why it changed with a stranger.

 

[JowGaWolf9]

The OP was about a specific push hands situation and why it changed with a stranger.

It changed because because of all the things I've been discussing. Move with a technique vs follow a technique. A Demo to show concept vs application to defend against that concept that was shown.

The structure that the technique did not face the same structure. The same thing I've been talking about this whole time. The issue isn’t whether the technique works — it’s that you can’t apply it the same way on someone who cooperates and someone who is actively trying to counter you.

When in a demo. The technique doens't have many structures to overcome before applying the technique.

This Structure that White is using. Here White follows the energy.

Is not the same structure here. White here does not have the same structure, He moves with the energy but does not follow it. He redirects it and cancel it. Before the Tai Chi master can do the same technique as he did above, he must choose to apply a technique that specifically addresses this structure, or he must break this structure so that he can apply the exact technique while the structure is broken.

Demo vs Application.

The first image above is a demo. The second image is Application. The push hand situation didn't change, but that is where the problem exists. It should have changed in order to address the different structure that he now faces instead of addressing it as if he is still going against the first person.

We have already seen this playout many times. There's concept

and there's application. When he speaks it's not from the context of System A vs System A

Should a person only think application? But the movement should not be without function or without purpose.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

That’s not really an application point of view — it’s reframing the discussion to fit your own criteria. The OP was about a specific push hands situation and why it changed with a stranger.

A stranger may not be a Taiji guy. The OP should not assume that.

When I use "arm drag" on my opponent, I truly don't care if he is a Taiji guy, boxer, TKD guy, BJJ guy, or ... . All MA skill should be able to apply to all MA systems.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

When I use "arm drag" on my opponent, I truly don't care if he is a Taiji guy, boxer, TKD guy, BJJ guy, or ... . All MA skill should be able to apply to all MA systems.

By your own logic, how have you verified that?
If you haven’t demonstrated it against people outside your own students, how do you know it applies across systems?

As some have already pointed out, what’s being shown in demo or practice doesn’t necessarily hold up on them — which is the same criticism you and others made about the Taiji example with a non-student.

Do you have any clips of it working on someone who isn’t your student?

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

By your own logic, how have you verified that? ... Do you have any clips of it working on someone who isn’t your student?

Simple, you just test your skill against people from different MA systems. When I met a MA person, I always ask that person to punch me 20 times. I then test my "rhino guard", or "double spears" to see if I can block all 20 punches. Since I won't punch back, most people don't mind throwing 20 punches at me.

You ask a very funny question. If a technique can only work from a teacher to a student, that's not a valid technique.

Here is an example that a student applies a technique on his teacher. In real fight, will this entering strategy work. IMO, the chance is pretty high.

Arm drag is a surprise move. Most people don't expect that. I have used it against a Taiji guy, a wrestler, a boxer, and a Karate guy. There is no video available. I wasn't fight those people. I simply asked, "In a fight, if your opponent starts with arm drag, what will you do?" they liked to experiencer that, and I dragged them. Most of them responded with resisting.

In other words, my opponent liked to experience "arm drag". I liked to experience their possible responds. It was a test and not a fight (just like the stranger tested the Taiji teacher in that video).

I used it in Chinese wrestling tournaments all the time.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

When someone agrees to “experience” something, they’ve already accepted the setup — even if they resist after. That’s very different from a stranger who doesn’t follow your timing, structure, or intent from the start.


Relying on “surprise” is closer to an ambush, doesn’t translate well once someone is aware and actively denying what you’re trying to do.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

When someone agrees to “experience” something, they’ve already accepted the setup — even if they resist after. That’s very different from a stranger who doesn’t follow your timing, structure, or intent from the start.

Relying on “surprise” is closer to an ambush, doesn’t translate well once someone is aware and actively denying what you’re trying to do.

A groin kick, face punch is a surprise. A right jab, left hook is also a surprise.

You can also grab on your opponent's clothes and drag him around. People had done this 1000 years ago. It's the 1st Chinese wrestling principle "撕(Si) - Tearing".

 

[JowGaWolf9]

When someone agrees to “experience” something, they’ve already accepted the setup — even if they resist after.

This is how I am. If I say I want to experience something. I don't try to resist, because I want to see and understand how the energy flows. I want to know if something bends or moves in a certain direction so I can better understand where the technique is going. At that point my main goal is to experience the person's desired effect of the technique. This allows me to have a better idea of what I need to watch out for when application applies. When I spar, I'm "listening" for hints of the techniques. I want to me aware of familiar movements that are applied to my body. I go from wanting to experience to, denying my sparring partner's technique.

Some people will map out the experience. They will go through trial and error. While the person is experiencing the technique, they will take a mental note of t "What happens if I do this." This allows them to break down the technique and identify possible gaps in their partner's technique. Great for someone who wants you to get better horrible for training with someone who always thinks they need to win against you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

When someone agrees to “experience” something, they’ve already accepted the setup — even if they resist after. That’s very different from a stranger who doesn’t follow your timing, structure, or intent from the start.

To experience something is different from to avoid something.

 

[JowGaWolf9]

To experience something is different from to avoid something.

I think the stranger in the OPs video did both. He originally went up there and experienced it and that first time was enough for him to get an idea of what was going on and how to deal with it. The second time was not the same as the first. I haven't looked but I'm thinking the stranger's structure the first time was different than the structure that he used the second time.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

I haven't looked but I'm thinking the stranger's structure the first time was different than the structure that he used the second time.

you didn’t watch the op video?