Push Hands Fail

[windwalker099129 159]

George Xu emphasizes emptiness in his practice — a difficult concept to grasp. IME, most don’t really work on, or with, this aspect. The focus tends to be more on structure, rooting, and applying force.

“The external is yours, the internal is mine”
George Xu

Emptiness isn’t just the absence of force. It’s the ability to not present anything for the other person to engage with — no fixed point, no resistance to work against.

Without that, reactions tend to come late, after contact has already been made.

This type of approach is a little different from others that focus more on techniques, which is why people looking at the practice sometimes wonder why certain things are, or are not, included.


“I know him, he does not know me.”

 

[Same Trick74 25]

Sorry still no access to YT, but since the vid is named ”Chang taiji push hands” I assume it’s ”regular” taiji push hands demonstrating.
You mentioned in your Taiji career you have practised 3 ways -
1. Taiji for health.
2. CMC Taiji.
3. Chang Taiji.

I guess you mean 2 and 3 is not focused on health but rather quite martial in their nature, both come from Yang taijiquan and so quite similar, are they still different in their martial nature, as maybe Chang taiji focus more toward wrestling while CMC taiji focus on other combat applications?

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

as maybe Chang taiji focus more toward wrestling ...

Chang Taiji adds "leg skill" back into Taiji such as by adding:

- outer hook into Peng.
- leg spring into Lu,
- leg scoop into Ji.
- inner hook into An,
- foot sweep into double pulling,
- shin bite into single whip,
- ...

Hand push + leg skill = throw. This way, Taiji principle and wrestling principle are truly integrated. Instead of pushing your opponent back, you take him down instead.

Every time I mention this, some people always said that I'm bashing Taiji system.

 

[Same Trick74 25]

Chang Taiji adds "leg skill" back into Taiji such as by adding:

- outer hook into Peng.
- leg spring into Lu,
- leg scoop into Ji.
- inner hook into An,
- foot sweep into double pulling,
- shin bite into single whip,
- ...

Hand push + leg skill = throw. This way, Taiji principle and wrestling principle are truly integrated. Instead of pushing your opponent back, you take him down instead.

Every time I mention this, some people always said that I'm bashing Taiji system.

Yes “Leg-skill” is a good addition/part of taijiquan.
did you find the CMC taiji to hold any value toward combat ? In your listing of the three styles of taiji you have practiced you mentioned one as specifically “health taiji” so I guess you mean the two other (CMC and Chang taiji) as martial arts taiji ?

 

[JowGaWolf9]

1. resist -><-
2. yield/sticky/follow ->->
3. interrupt

IMO, 3 is better than 1 and 2.


When I use my right hand to drag your right arm, if you use your left hand to push on my right elbow joint, you can "interrupt" my right arm dragging. So, when I use "circular" foot work on you, you have to use "straight line" footwork to cut infront of me.

In other words, you have to take the control back.

View attachment 33980

Good explanation with the graphic. This is the movement that I'm thinking of. This is what "move with the opponent" looks like to me in function. In my mind this is "move with." Move with and Follow are two different things. B does not follow A. But B is moving with A to the same "end point" which is the end of A's technique.

I have a Hip Throw defense that I play around with where I give my sparring partner the feel that he can throw me. Instead of me following the energy of the throw I move off to the side just enough where I can move in the same direction has his throwing energy. My goal is always to get to where his techniques end without following the same path. Your graphic shows that perfectly how that looks in my mind.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

Yes “Leg-skill” is a good addition/part of taijiquan.
did you find the CMC taiji to hold any value toward combat ? In your listing of the three styles of taiji you have practiced you mentioned one as specifically “health taiji” so I guess you mean the two other (CMC and Chang taiji) as martial arts taiji ?

Yang style, and Chen for that matter all have leg skills and Shuaijiao. Depending on what level of push hands training you are at. Found myself on the floor more that once doing push hands with my Yang Shifu. But these things generally appear when you progress to moving push hands. And had a Chen guy put me there more than once too. You will also find it in Wu stlye. Use to be videos of Eddie Wu sweeping peoples feet out from under them. Also Break fall training is part of the Wu family taijiquan. And frankly, since all have Shuaijiao, I have alwaays wondered why they all don't train falling and break falls.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

Chang Taiji adds "leg skill" back into Taiji such as by adding:

- outer hook into Peng.
- leg spring into Lu,
- leg scoop into Ji.
- inner hook into An,
- foot sweep into double pulling,
- shin bite into single whip,
- ...

Hand push + leg skill = throw. This way, Taiji principle and wrestling principle are truly integrated. Instead of pushing your opponent back, you take him down instead.

Every time I mention this, some people always said that I'm bashing Taiji system.

Speaking, as I assume, "some people" leg skills are already in traditional Yang and Chen style, and Wu for that matter, so it does not need to be added, and talking about leg skill is not bashing taiji, it is thinking it needs to be added is where I take issue. All taijiquan styles, or at least the main 5, 6 if you include Zhaobao, and for that matter, CMC, at least as it comes from William CC Chen, all have kicks, punches, qinna and shuaijiao.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

But these things generally appear when you progress to moving push hands. And had a Chen guy put me there more than once too. You will also find it in Wu stlye. Use to be videos of Eddie Wu sweeping peoples feet out from under them. Also Break fall training is part of the Wu family taijiquan. And frankly, since all have Shuaijiao, I have alwaays wondered why they all don't train falling and break falls.

Or maybe not

What I’ve found is that as one progresses, it becomes clear that certain things don’t naturally fit, depending on the type of skill set being developed.

Different approaches lead to different outcomes. Methods that emphasize throws, sweeps, and breakfalls will naturally include those elements. Others, focused more on sensitivity, timing, change — and especially emptiness — don’t always emphasize them in the same way.

At one time, what came out of Chen and later became known as “Taiji” wasn’t even called Taiji. It went by names like “Touch Boxing,” “Soft Boxing,” and others — descriptions based more on observable qualities than on the philosophical framework that was associated with it later.

If the focus is on developing emptiness — not presenting a fixed point, not giving something to be acted on — then certain methods may not arise in the same way, or may not be emphasized.

So it may not be a matter of what’s missing, but what’s being prioritized.

---

 

[windwalker099129 159]

When I work with people, the emphasis is on letting them feel emptiness in use — the difference between force, which can be felt, and results that arise without force being felt.

For me, that’s a defining characteristic of Taiji and what distinguishes it from many other arts. When demonstrations rely on mechanics that look and feel the same as other styles, it raises the question of what is actually being expressed.

It also explains why people sometimes ask, “Is this Taiji?”

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

Or maybe not

What I’ve found is that as one progresses, it becomes clear that certain things don’t naturally fit, depending on the type of skill set being developed.

Different approaches lead to different outcomes. Methods that emphasize throws, sweeps, and breakfalls will naturally include those elements. Others, focused more on sensitivity, timing, change — and especially emptiness — don’t always emphasize them in the same way.

At one time, what came out of Chen and later became known as “Taiji” wasn’t even called Taiji. It went by names like “Touch Boxing,” “Soft Boxing,” and others — descriptions based more on observable qualities than on the philosophical framework that was associated with it later.

If the focus is on developing emptiness — not presenting a fixed point, not giving something to be acted on — then certain methods may not arise in the same way, or may not be emphasized.

So it may not be a matter of what’s missing, but what’s being prioritized.

---

I can only go with my experince. Admittedly with the Folks of William CC Chen (Student of CMC) they tend to use more force and more strength.

The Chen guy (student of Wang Hai Jun, who was a student od Chen Zhanglei) it was a bit more subtle, but still, sweeps were not necessarily as much taijiquan as they would be long fist

However My Yang Shifu student of Tung Ying Chieh, you basically find yourself on the floor, and most of the time not knowing how you got there ,same with qinna and anything else he did. He was sensing the emptiness and all of a sudden you are looking up from the floor, or joint locked, or stumbling off in a different direction. But then, when he and I were doing opush hands a lot he had been doing Yang taijiquan for around 50 years.

​

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

did you find the CMC taiji to hold any value toward combat ?

The person who taught me the CMC Taiji had no combat experience. I didn't learn any Taiji fighting skill from that person.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

Move with and Follow are two different things.

When your opponent is moving in circle, your follow will also be in circle, your follow will be predictable. This is why I believe follow is not a good choice.

I pull you, you follow me, I can then borrow your following force and pull you more.

 

[Same Trick74 25]

Yang style, and Chen for that matter all have leg skills and Shuaijiao. Depending on what level of push hands training you are at. Found myself on the floor more that once doing push hands with my Yang Shifu. But these things generally appear when you progress to moving push hands. And had a Chen guy put me there more than once too. You will also find it in Wu stlye. Use to be videos of Eddie Wu sweeping peoples feet out from under them. Also Break fall training is part of the Wu family taijiquan. And frankly, since all have Shuaijiao, I have alwaays wondered why they all don't train falling and break falls.

No ”tatami” culture. Also perhaps learning the ”hard way” one will take more care of not putting oneself in wrong positions toward eventual opponents? I mean the goal is to stay standing.

 

[Same Trick74 25]

The person who taught me the CMC Taiji had no combat experience. I didn't learn any Taiji fighting skill from that person.

i understand that Zheng Manqing himself was quite fond of PH, and Taiji-PH isn’t all that lost of martial value, which should be obvious since Chang taiji seemingly practice it too ?
Your ZMQ-taiji teacher was maybe holding back from you ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

Taiji-PH isn’t all that lost of martial value,

During PH, if your opponent's right-hand grabs on your left wrist, his left-hand grabs on your right wrist, what will you do?

If you rotate your arms and try to break your opponent's grips, his both hands can then slide along your arms and reach to your elbow joints. From there his hands can reach to your shoulder, head, or waist.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

During PH, if your opponent's right-hand grabs on your left wrist, his left-hand grabs on your right wrist, what will you do?

If my opponent’s right hand grabs my left wrist and his left hand grabs my right wrist, I wouldn’t try to rotate my arms to break the grips.

Instead, I’d rotate from the base so that either elbow aligns into the space between his feet — vertically or horizontally — with the change coming from the ankle and traveling through the body.

Because both of his hands are committed, that connects directly into his center. It’s not something he can simply follow by sliding up the arms, as the change isn’t local — it’s already affecting his structure.

If the movement is in the arms, then yes, he can follow and continue up the chain. If it’s whole-body, his balance is already being taken.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

Because both of his hands are committed,

This is what I'm trying to say all these years. When your opponent grabs on your wrists, he is "not committed". He just wants you to do something so he can take advantage on it. The moment that you try to do something, he will release his wrist grips and go to your elbow or shoulder.

This also apply to PH training as well. If your opponent breaks away from your am contact, you have to obtain that contact back again in order to continue your PH training.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

This is what I'm trying to say all these years. When your opponent grabs on your wrists, he is "not committed". He just wants you to do something so he can take advantage on it. The moment that you try to do something, he will release his wrist grips and go to your elbow or shoulder.

This also apply to PH training as well. If your opponent breaks away from your am contact, you have to obtain that contact back again in order to continue your PH training.

You should read your post again that’s not what you said. You asked what would you do, and suggested that the person would just follow the Jin path to the body. As to being committed or not, it’s a matter of who can. “Song “ more. The one who can , can use the others intent

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

You should read your post again that’s not what you said. You asked what would you do, and suggested that the person would just follow the Jin path to the body. As to being committed or not, it’s a matter of who can. “Song “ more. The one who can , can use the others intent

But when to release the wrist grips is under your opponent's control.

I will try very hard not to let my opponent to control my wrists. When that happen, it will be to my disadvantage.

I also don't believe Song can do anything different here. The moment that your opponent releases his grips, the moment that the connection is broken.

Try to think that a wrist grabbing is like a downward parry. The contact moment may last for only 1/2 second. When your opponent's right hand grabs on your left wrist, his right side entering is open. He can enter whenever that he wants to.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

The approach I’m referring to isn’t based on the grip itself. The act of gripping is preceded by the intent to do so, that’s the level the change is based on and reacts with. It’s not dependent on a mechanical link.

From that perspective, connection isn’t lost just because the hands release, and control of the wrists isn’t the determining factor.

In the video posted
George Xu talks about this as two bodies — inner and outer.

He mentions, he controls the internal, and gives the other the external
Depending on ones focus and practice, it changes how and what can be done.