Push Hands Fail

[Same Trick74 25]

I did not know that. But they have several videos on that site that are labelled Yiquan, and they are of push hands. And I'm not surprised you can't see it. It is on FaceBook, so you won't be able to see it in China.

Even within the Fu Zhongwen linage(Yang Taiji) I have seen the label “Yiquan”. TJQ is of course “yiquan” in the sense it’s supposed to work with same’ish mind methods as “Yiquan” do.
but something tells me they just kin of want to hook on the “Yiquan” fame, but that was at its peak 20-30 years ago, at least.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

Even within the Fu Zhongwen linage(Yang Taiji) I have seen the label “Yiquan”. TJQ is of course “yiquan” in the sense it’s supposed to work with same’ish mind methods as “Yiquan” do.
but something tells me they just kin of want to hook on the “Yiquan” fame, but that was at its peak 20-30 years ago, at least.

I did not know that, thanks for the info

I trained a bit if Yiquan, but just some standing posture, a bit of the stepping and push hands. But only in a few seminars with the same guy

 

[JowGaWolf9]

Interesting clip.

Is he actually considered a master in China by those familiar with him?
Why was he unable to achieve the same results with the stranger that he demonstrated with his student?

It raises an interesting question about how demonstrations translate when the partner is not part of the practice.

Has anyone had a similar experience when someone, after seeing a demo, wanted to test whether what was demonstrated would work on them?

ha ha ha. I knock people out.
But seriously, yes. I do this all the time because I want to experience what it feels like more so than wondering "If it would work on me." I try to separate technique from the practitioner. Based on that feedback I begin to analyze if it would work on me. I usually get my answer to "Will it work on me?" through sparring.

His student gave him the opportunity. His opponent didn't give him the opportunity. He needs to create opportunity on his opponent, but he didn't do a good job.

I agree with this. It goes back to the same ole debate we always get into. Willing partner vs resisting partner.
Here's a little bit of how Ai explains what I described to it.
There are three completely different situations:

• Willing partner → they let the technique happen.
• Countering partner → they interrupt or redirect you.
• Resisting partner → they actively fight the technique.

So even if the technique is the same, the application changes depending on the partner’s intent.

Boxing shows this clearly:

• A jab on someone willing
• A jab on someone countering
• A jab on someone resisting

Those are three different problems, not one.

Structure changes the technique too​

In the video, the teacher wasn’t dealing with the same body twice.

• The student had one stance, balance, and center of gravity.
• The other guy had a completely different structure.

So the technique was being applied to two different physical setups, which naturally changes how it must be applied. Pushing someone in a bad stance is not the same as pushing someone in a strong stance. You must first break the strong stance so that it's bad, then push.

Style matchups are really structure matchups​

When you say:

• Jow Ga vs BJJ
• Jow Ga vs Karate

You’re really talking about structure vs structure, not style vs style.

Each structure has its own:

• balance points
• weight distribution
• angles
• force paths

So you have to adjust / adapt the technique based on what structure you’re trying to overcome.

​

.

 

[JowGaWolf9]

This is how I see all Martial arts techniques.

I don’t treat techniques as fixed. I treat them as solutions to specific structural problems.. Because of this., I'm in agreement with Wang. Sometimes an additional technique must be used to break the Resisting or Countering Structure. THEN apply the technique shown in the Demo.

 

[Anarax1]

"Functionalizing" the art is the process of incorporating the skills you've gained from drilling into live(sparring) or free form practice. Two drills that sometimes fall short of this is push hands and chi sao.

There's benefits and skills to be gained from both drills that could be applied in live training. I've touched hands with practioners who were highly skilled in push hands and chi sao, but couldn't incorporate those skills even in light sparring. They didn't know how to root or uproot to defend or execute a takedown. There was very little to no sensitivity, even at the more optimal ranges and position to incorporate what they learned from chi sao.

If you're drilling with no purpose in mind, your instructor can't functionalize the art, it might be time to place your enery and effort elsewhere.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

There's benefits and skills to be gained from both drills that could be applied in live training. I've touched hands with practioners who were highly skilled in push hands and chi sao, but couldn't incorporate those skills even in light sparring. They didn't know how to root or uproot to defend or execute a takedown. There was very little to no sensitivity, even at the more optimal ranges and position to incorporate what they learned from chi sao.

Interesting. .

In your opinion, what would you advise them to practice to correct this?
You mentioned that the practitioners were highly skilled. What led you to believe they were highly skilled?

The same kind of comments could also be made about CMA in general, where the distinctiveness of the practices is often not reflected in actual use.

 

[JowGaWolf9]

"Functionalizing" the art is the process of incorporating the skills you've gained from drilling into live(sparring) or free form practice. Two drills that sometimes fall short of this is push hands and chi sao.

There's benefits and skills to be gained from both drills that could be applied in live training. I've touched hands with practioners who were highly skilled in push hands and chi sao, but couldn't incorporate those skills even in light sparring. They didn't know how to root or uproot to defend or execute a takedown. There was very little to no sensitivity, even at the more optimal ranges and position to incorporate what they learned from chi sao.

If you're drilling with no purpose in mind, your instructor can't functionalize the art, it might be time to place your enery and effort elsewhere.

This sounds like how I train. Purpose and function.

"I've touched hands with practioners who were highly skilled in push hands and chi sao, but couldn't incorporate those skills even in light sparring."

I've seen this myself. The bigger issue for me was A vs A. Those in the system were good with applying their techniques against others within the system but did not do well with A vs B and applying them against those outside of the system.

And I believe nothing highlighted this as much as CMA vs MMA years ago. That was a big wake up call. One that I was glad that hit the Kung Fu world the hardest. The good news is that I've seen a significant changes. It appears that Purpose and Function are now the higher priority.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

In your opinion, what would you advise them to practice to correct this?

One time I did "arm dragging" on a Taiji guy, he said, "This is not Taiji".

Taiji PH training should also include counter for "arm dragging" when your opponent tries to borrow your force.

How to deal with "switch hands" should also be included in Taiji PH training when your opponent tries to guide your leading arm to jam your back arm.

 

[windwalker099129 159]

How to deal with "switch hands" should also be included in Taiji PH training when your opponent tries to guide your leading arm to jam your back arm.

Having trained for a time in Brendan Lai’s group when he was teaching in Golden Gate Park, we practiced a movement they referred to as “1-2-3.” Simuler to what is shown,

Because of my Taiji background, my instinct was to follow the movement rather than resist it, which tended to unbalance the other person. They usually weren’t able to adjust to that.


Mr. Lai came over and said, “No, not like that — like this,” and demonstrated the movement on me.

His touch was very soft and very quick. Since he was the teacher, I made no attempt to counter or rebalance him. Not part of what he was teaching at the time.

What had been happening before was simply the result of following the movement rather than trying to control it — which wasn’t the point of the drill he was teaching.

Although there are techniques that push hands works from...The point isn’t really the techniques themselves, but what the practice develops.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

Because of my Taiji background, my instinct was to follow the movement rather than resist it, which tended to unbalance the other person. They usually weren’t able to adjust to that.

Could you provide more detail on this?

What did you do when your opponent's

- right hand touched your right forearm?
- left hand touched your right elbow joint?

 

[windwalker099129 159]

Could you provide more detail on this?

What did you do when your opponent's

- right hand touched your right forearm?
- left hand touched your right elbow joint?

The movement in the GIF appears to be based on the 1-2-3 Gou Lou Choi sequence, where the intent is to capture, pull, and strike. In the drill as it is normally trained, the contact points are meant to establish control so the sequence can happen quickly.

If you follow the touch at each contact point, however, the other person ends up with nothing stable to control while they are trying to come in. My response was simply to capture, follow the pull, and neutralize the balance, which caused the partner to become unbalanced before the strike could occur.

At that point the issue is no longer the technique itself, but whether one can adapt to what is actually happening at the moment of contact.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

My response was simply to capture, follow the pull, and neutralize the balance, which caused the partner to become unbalanced before the strike could occur.

How did you cause your opponent to be unbalanced?

 

[isshinryuronin18 18]

The movement in the GIF appears to be based on the 1-2-3 Gou Lou Choi sequence, where the intent is to capture, pull, and strike. In the drill as it is normally trained, the contact points are meant to establish control so the sequence can happen quickly.

If you follow the touch at each contact point, however, the other person ends up with nothing stable to control while they are trying to come in. My response was simply to capture, follow the pull, and neutralize the balance, which caused the partner to become unbalanced before the strike could occur.

At that point the issue is no longer the technique itself, but whether one can adapt to what is actually happening at the moment of contact.

At the end of the technique, the guy in black could have stepped in with his left leg and taken the other guy's back as his right side was compromised. Even though his initial attack failed, it did present an opportunity to take advantage of the resulting situation.

 

[JowGaWolf9]

One time I did "arm dragging" on a Taiji guy, he said, "This is not Taiji".

Taiji PH training should also include counter for "arm dragging" when your opponent tries to borrow your force.

View attachment 33969

How to deal with "switch hands" should also be included in Taiji PH training when your opponent tries to guide your leading arm to jam your back arm.

View attachment 33970

I'm thinking circle the arm like here or maybe

or the rear hand of Brush Knee.

Instead of hooking my arm like your student does in top video. I would want to move with you and then have my arm ahead of you movement. My goal would be to deny you the tension that you want as you pull.

At the very minimum, I do not want to hook my arm to provide you with a better grip. With someone who has a strong grip, I definitely would do arm circles in hopes that I could lock your grip in a position that would be uncomfortable for you.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

One time I did "arm dragging" on a Taiji guy, he said, "This is not Taiji".

Taiji PH training should also include counter for "arm dragging" when your opponent tries to borrow your force.

View attachment 33969

How to deal with "switch hands" should also be included in Taiji PH training when your opponent tries to guide your leading arm to jam your back arm.

View attachment 33970

One word.... "follow", arm drag me if you want.... I'll follow, that is IF you can get an arm drag. The guy in the video was resisting. One thing you do, does not mean all will be the same

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

I'm thinking circle the arm like here or maybe

or the rear hand of Brush Knee.

Instead of hooking my arm like your student does in top video. I would want to move with you and then have my arm ahead of you movement. My goal would be to deny you the tension that you want as you pull.

At the very minimum, I do not want to hook my arm to provide you with a better grip. With someone who has a strong grip, I definitely would do arm circles in hopes that I could lock your grip in a position that would be uncomfortable for you.

Simply follow, stay relaxed and don't resist

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

Simply follow, stay relaxed and don't resist

1. resist -><-
2. yield/sticky/follow ->->
3. interrupt

IMO, 3 is better than 1 and 2.

Instead of hooking my arm like your student does in top video. I would want to move with you and then have my arm ahead of you movement. My goal would be to deny you the tension that you want as you pull.

At the very minimum, I do not want to hook my arm to provide you with a better grip. With someone who has a strong grip, I definitely would do arm circles in hopes that I could lock your grip in a position that would be uncomfortable for you.

When I use my right hand to drag your right arm, if you use your left hand to push on my right elbow joint, you can "interrupt" my right arm dragging. So, when I use "circular" foot work on you, you have to use "straight line" footwork to cut infront of me.

In other words, you have to take the control back.

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

1. resist -><-
2. yield/sticky/follow ->->
3. interrupt

IMO, 3 is better than 1 and 2.


When I use my right hand to drag your right arm, if you use your left hand to push on my right elbow joint, you can "interrupt" my right arm dragging. So, when I use "circular" foot work on you, you have to use "straight line" footwork to cut infront of me.

In other words, you have to take the control back.

View attachment 33980

Do you really want to go here again... you know my thoughts on your Taijiquan expertise or to be more correct lack there of.You do not understand it, and likely never will. You are stuck in if A then B and it is never that simple, in any martial art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang129 159]

You do not understand it, and likely never will.

Please stop personal attack. It's against the Martial Talk policy here.

How to counter "arm dragging" was considered "secret" about 50 years ago. I share the counter method here and you attack me personally. Why?

 

[Xue Sheng120 38]

Please stop personal attack. It's against the Martial Talk policy here.

And yet you know hoiw I feel, we have had this discussion multiple times in multiple threads..... so don't instigate an issue by stating it agian