Priorities: Chick-Fil-A, Starbucks, & the Economy

[Steve]

The ultimate lesson here...if you are a business owner, don't voice your opinion on religion or sexual politics. Regardless of how you try to frame it you will be targeted by the media and your opinion reframed as "hate".


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Or, alternatively, voice your opinions, but don't co-mingle your personal opinions on religion or sexual politics with your business.

Or alternative number 2, do so understanding that co-mingling personal politics and business will potentially help OR harm your business, and be prepared to accept the consequences.

Either way, don't be a baby about it and cry about how the media is targeting you, wah, wah, wah.

 

[rickster]

Sure...what better way to convert them than when they read the scripture I have printed on all the cups and napkins?

You wont be converting them, they will be (in some way) trying to convert your shop

And what about those who think they are vamps or lykens, or those wearing up-side down crosses?

 

[rickster]

Perhaps the gay community/culture should start their own calling "Chick Fil Gay"?

 

[Steve]

Bear with me, this is just a thought experiment...and a question, because I honestly don't know the business legalities of the following.

If I wanted to start a coffee shop called "Christs Cafe" and I served "Crucifiction Cappuccino" with "Basicalla Brownies" in an atmosphere with stained glass windows, Christian Music playing, Bibles on the tables and the Pope Channel playing on the television 24/7 would that be legal?

If I employed members of my Church there (as in I only placed help wanted ads in the Church program or announced it at Church functions) would that be legal?

If it became successful and I opened 10 more in my part of the country would that change things?

I'm no lawyer, but based on my understanding, your business model is probably okay, but only hiring people from your church is pretty clearly discrimination based on a protected class.

Whether you opened up 10 or 100, I think that the situation would be pretty much the same, although you'd have to deal with variations in State and local anti-discrimination laws and such. For example, in Washington, it is legal to discriminate based upon sexual orientation (IIRC), although sexual orientation is a protected class in Seattle.

 

[Steve]

You wont be converting them, they will be (in some way) trying to convert your shop

And what about those who think they are vamps or lykens, or those wearing up-side down crosses?

In and Out does this. Don't they? They don't proselytize, but they do include a quote from scripture on the bottom of every drink cup.

Perhaps the gay coomunity/culture should start their own calling "Chick Fil Gay"?

I know this is a joke, but someone already beat you to it. http://hilahcooking.com/chick-fil-a-copycat/

It's grubbin, too. I tried it after reading the tip about marinating in pickle juice. That's genius, right there.

 

[rickster]

I'm no lawyer, but based on my understanding, your business model is probably okay, but only hiring people from your church is pretty clearly discrimination based on a protected class.

Whether you opened up 10 or 100, I think that the situation would be pretty much the same, although you'd have to deal with variations in State and local anti-discrimination laws and such. For example, in Washington, it is legal to discriminate based upon sexual orientation (IIRC), although sexual orientation is a protected class in Seattle.

I like sexual orientations

 

[Tgace]

You wont be converting them, they will be (in some way) trying to convert your shop

And what about those who think they are vamps or lykens, or those wearing up-side down crosses?

Im just trying to experiment with the concept of mixing religion with your business..is it allowed? Where are the lines (in terms of law)? What can you do in terms of business decision making when you do mix them?

In my little shop here...how long till people intentionally try to get jobs with the express purpose of some sort of "protest"... or come to the shop with a plan to catch a lawsuit against me because they dont approve of my "theme"? I suppose that is all part of the risk, but what are the actual legal limits?

 

[Tgace]

I'm no lawyer, but based on my understanding, your business model is probably okay, but only hiring people from your church is pretty clearly discrimination based on a protected class.

Whether you opened up 10 or 100, I think that the situation would be pretty much the same, although you'd have to deal with variations in State and local anti-discrimination laws and such. For example, in Washington, it is legal to discriminate based upon sexual orientation (IIRC), although sexual orientation is a protected class in Seattle.

I didnt say I "would only hire" from my Church..only that the only place I put my adds for help would be at Church related functions and publications...

Is there law stating that I have to place help wanted ads in a public place were people of all types can see them (legit question..I dont know).

 

[ballen0351]

Your analogy about the Muslim American employee is interesting. On the one hand, CFA has said that they are not a "Christian business" but that they espouse "Christian values". Yet any follower of Christ knows that you do not demand a non-believer to pray. You especially don't demand that he or she pray in exchange for something of value (like their job).

Ironically, when it comes to employee treatment it may be Chick-Fil-A that needs a strong lesson on "Christian values".

a few complaints out of how many thousand employees seems to me that treat people just fine.

 

[Steve]

I didnt say I "would only hire" from my Church..only that the only place I put my adds for help would be at Church related functions and publications...

And by only placing ads for help at the church, you're going to end up hiring only people who are from the church. Clearly, you're overtly trying to only hire Christians, which is overtly discriminatory. And religion happens to be a protected class.

Look at it like this. Say I don't like people with kinky, curly, black or dark brown hair. Fine. Hair color isn't a protected category and I don't want anyone with kinky, curly, black or dark brown hair on my staff. But if, by never hiring someone with kinky, curly, black or dark brown hair, my staff ends up looking like the cast of Mad Men or pre-Wyatt Cenac Daily Show, I'm just ASKING for a racial discrimination suit. I could explain all day that it's not that they're African American. It's because I don't like their hair. But, my hiring practices are overtly discriminatory and race is a protected category.

So, again, you're trying to be cute with the law, but in an EEOC dispute, the court doesn't care about cutesiness. Bottom line is that you have a Christian themed store (fine) but are actively discriminating against potential applicants based upon religious preference (not fine).

 

[Tgace]

Yup.

http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/religion.html#_Toc203359497

EXAMPLE 8
Recruitment
Charles, the president of a company that owns several gas stations, needs managers for the new convenience stores he has decided to add to the stations. He posts a job announcement at the Hindu Temple he attends and asks other members of the temple to refer only Hindu friends or family members who may be interested in the position. He does no other recruitment. By limiting his recruitment to Hindus, Charles is engaging in unlawful discrimination.

hmmm..."and asks other members of the temple to refer only Hindu friends or family members who may be interested in the position." Thats an important addition isnt it? Of course even if you didn't add that you would still draw eeoc troubles most likely.

Of course I dont think that precludes me from placing ads in the Church flyers as well. Which...if I get a Church applicant and a "Hindu" applicant, which should I hire? Of course any intelligent employer knows that he will pretty much have to hire a non-Christian to try and avoid discrimination accusations. Of course a coffee shop like mine may as well have a big Lawsuit Target placed on it because it would be nieve to believe that people would not intentionally target my business for a lawsuit simply because they dont like my religious beliefs.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Woman put an ad in her church bulletin looking for a 'Christian Room Mate'. Got sued and lost on a discrimination case.

 

[Tgace]

Woman put an ad in her church bulletin looking for a 'Christian Room Mate'. Got sued and lost on a discrimination case.

That was dropped:

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/...-against-woman-looking-for-Christian-roommate

http://blog.ceb.com/2012/04/20/fair-housing-acts-dont-apply-to-roommate-listings/

Fair Housing Acts Don’t Apply to Roommate Listings

The Ninth Circuit interpreted this definition of “dwelling” as applying only to an independent living unit, noting that it would be difficult to divide a single-family house or apartment into separate “dwellings” for purposes of the Act.

The court found no indication that Congress, in enacting the FHA, intended to interfere with personal relationships inside the home; rather, Congress wanted to address the problem of landlords discriminating in the sale and rental of housing.

But she did have to go through the court hassle over it...which I guess is the real lesson here.

 

[Steve]

Yup.

http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/religion.html#_Toc203359497


hmmm..."and asks other members of the temple to refer only Hindu friends or family members who may be interested in the position." Thats an important addition isnt it? Of course even if you didn't add that you would still draw eeoc troubles most likely.

Whew. I feel like I passed a mid-term exam!

Of course I dont think that precludes me from placing ads in the Church flyers as well. Which...if I get a Church applicant and a "Hindu" applicant, which should I hire? Of course any intelligent employer knows that he will pretty much have to hire a non-Christian to try and avoid discrimination accusations.

Presuming the Hindu applicant was at least equally qualified for the position, you'd be asking for trouble. You're right. If you have a list of applicants who are otherwise equally well qualified for a position, you'd likely move onto other considerations.

If the Hindu applicant was less qualified, you'd be smart to document your interviews well, but I wouldn't necessarily shy away from hiring the right person for the job.

 

[Tgace]

So...knowing the "theme" of my business...what happens if one of my employees engages in "anti Christian" conversation with my customers? Or suddenly takes offense at the "marriage is between a man and a woman" coasters?

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[jks9199]

I didnt say I "would only hire" from my Church..only that the only place I put my adds for help would be at Church related functions and publications...

Is there law stating that I have to place help wanted ads in a public place were people of all types can see them (legit question..I dont know).

I don't think so. I think you're fine so long as, were someone to walk in and ask about a job, they got honest consideration and that, if rejected, it wasn't for any of the prohibited.

 

[Steve]

So...knowing the "theme" of my business...what happens if one of my employees engages in "anti Christian" conversation with my customers? Or suddenly takes offense at the "marriage is between a man and a woman" coasters?

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That would be case by case. But if you're asking me my opinion, I'd say that "anti-Christian" conversations are a bad idea regardless of the theme of your business. Anti-any religion is probably a bad idea. Why is the employee discussing religion at all, beyond the specific nature of selling a product? The presumption is that your "business" is to sell goods and make money, and isn't about proselytizing. Which leads to your second question...

If you're selling product, it's reasonable to expect your employees to sell the product you stock. People do it in sales all the time, even with products they don't personally like or use. If I owned a Christian book store, I'd expect my employees to try and sell my christian books, by golly.

 

[Carol]

I didnt say I "would only hire" from my Church..only that the only place I put my adds for help would be at Church related functions and publications...

Is there law stating that I have to place help wanted ads in a public place were people of all types can see them (legit question..I dont know).

I dont know if it's a law or a "guideline" with a force similar of law, but once you have a certain number of employees, you need to file EEO reports that show outreach to many peoples, including underrepresented minorities.

There is likely a point where it would be good business to do so to minimize liability risk.


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[Wo Fat]

I didnt say I "would only hire" from my Church..only that the only place I put my adds for help would be at Church related functions and publications...

Is there law stating that I have to place help wanted ads in a public place were people of all types can see them (legit question..I dont know).

I think if you had more than 100 employees and were "corporate", you'd have EEO-1 filing requirements. But even if you were smaller, you would probably still be subject ot Title VII.

Placing adds where only church members would see them, is more of a "tap-on-the-shoulder" form of employing people. And it's one of the things that hurts you if someone sues.

 

[Carol]

So...knowing the "theme" of my business...what happens if one of my employees engages in "anti Christian" conversation with my customers? Or suddenly takes offense at the "marriage is between a man and a woman" coasters?

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Well, what is "anti-Christian conversation"? Who gets to decide what that is, and how does it affect the business of your cafe?

What if they do take offense at such coasters? How do those coasters translate to their overall work environment and their ability to advance?

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