OP
shorinfighter
Yellow Belt
- Thread Starter
- #21
Thank you very much. I will do that.
practicing ninjutsu
- Thread starter shorinfighter
- Start date
Which school of ninjutsu? Even limiting our discussion to the groups that derive from Toshitsugu Takamatsu, the Bujinkan is quite different from the Jinenkan, which is different again from the Genbukan... or even Stephen Hayes's To Shin Do/Quest Centers. They all have their own takes and approaches to the same broad general body of knowledge and fighting strategies. The Bujinkan really focuses on teaching their version of budo taijutsu, an amalgam of the 9 traditions that Hatsumi received, for example.
OP
shorinfighter
Yellow Belt
- Thread Starter
- #23
Doesnt ninjutsu focus a lot on stealth and evasion and stuff like that?
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
I'm going to parot what others have said and say you can't learn ninjutsu without an instructor. You can't learn any martial art without an instructor. But, if you really want something to practice, practice the Ninpo Kihon Happo. Don't know what that is? Find an instructor.
Depends. Stealth and concealment training are tied in with ninjutsu, but most schools don't practice them very often as far as I know. Mine does, but only at yearly camping trips. They are realitively simple; you just need to practice them consistently to be good at them. Want to know what they are? Find an instructor. I had to. I paid money and worked hard and drive a hour every other day to get to my dojo. Why should anyone give you information for nothing. That's not discussion, that's lecture.
And no one wants a lecture from me. Not while Chris is so much more articulate.
Everything realted to martial arts training requires an instructor. You may be able to study ninjutsu in the future, but at this moment it seems you cannot.
Nobody said you were stupid. Frankly, I don't really know or care if you're stupid. You will not learn these arts without a good instructor. You may mimic some movements, but you won't do it right, and you will never understand the basic underlying principles without a good instructor. I've written two textbooks for students of Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan and if anybody wanted to learn the art from them, I'd tell them the same thing: it just isn't possible.
And good luck learning anything useful from the hours of crap posted on YouTube. There are some good clips buried in there, but you, sadly, don't know how to determine which ones are good and which ones are utter crap.
If I may quote one of the most widely respected Karate Masters ever, Mr Miyagi, "You too much TV..."
You're posts here have proven to me that you don't know how to identify good ninjutsu, or that you don't truly understand what it is. You seem to be looking at it as if its a fighting style that focuses on stealth and evasion. While fighting is involved, from my understanding of it, there is much, much more than just the fighting involved, and the fighting isn't the most important aspect (although, some ninjutsu practitioners may focus only on the fighting). I'm not the best person on here to tell you what is important, I could but it wouldn't be the most accurate. Chris may be able to help you more, if he's willing. I will say, though, that if you're looking for a defensive fighting style focused on 'stealth and evasion', ninjutsu is not what you're looking for. Sounds like a CMA may be better for you (ask Xue Sheng which one, if he's willing as well). (Yes, I am passing the buck to other members of the forum, no it's not out of laziness. They are better qualified then me, and may be able to help you understand what you want...something thats pretty tough to find online...)
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
And I think I'll take it back to the beginning...
You're not new to ninjutsu. New to ninjutsu means that you've just joined a dojo, and are training under an instructor. What you are is interested in ninjutsu, with no real understanding of what that even is.
The very first step is to find an instructor. Without that first step, nothing else is possible. Despite the kata being on you-tube etc, there is no way you can learn them this way... and you won't find descriptions written down anywhere. Not that you can genuinely follow and learn from without guidance, anyway. Even my own students, when I've written down in great detail exactly how specific kata are performed, get them very badly wrong until they're shown the technique in question. Beyond that, there is a lot not written that is essential... the "way" things are done (what is often described as the "feel") is often more important than "how" (which hand/foot/step/grip etc)... and that is only learnt through experiencing it from someone who already knows it.
Learning by yourself isn't just "not as good", it's impossible. You genuinely can't do it. The vast majority of methods in our arts are paired forms, with an attacking and defending side... so you need a partner, just to do things in the first place. And your partner needs to be far more experienced in the art than yourself (if they're the one guiding you). Without that, you can't learn the art at all. It has nothing to do with knowing how to "prevent injury" or anything similar.
As far as your previous experience, the only way you could learn anything the way you're wanting to is to learn a very similar system... and even then, you're going to miss a lot. Techniques are not the answer, and are almost irrelevant when it comes to learning to defending yourself. To think that "more techniques is better" is to completely misunderstand the reality of self defence, and martial arts.
I think you're thinking of the wrong things when you use the term "forms" there.... karate style kata (realistically an Okinawan training methods, imported from China) is very, very different to a Japanese method. And you're not going to get information on the kata of the ninjutsu traditions online. Oh, and your goal is completely counter-productive, and will lead to you being less able to defend yourself, and less effective in the little you can do. I really don't care one way or another if you go back to karate or not, but taking bits from here, and bits from there is a recipe for disaster and sub-par skills. I'll put it this way... steak is good, so is soup. As is pizza. And ice-cream. But put them all in a bowl, mix them up, and do you think that works as a tasty meal? It's the same when you try just putting bits and pieces of unrelated (and ill-understood) systems/arts together, thinking it makes you better as a martial artist. It doesn't. It makes you a martial dabbler, unskilled at anything to any real degree, with no real understanding or knowledge.
Irrelevant. If there isn't a school nearby, you can't learn it. If there is a school, but you can't afford it, you can't learn it. Sorry if that conflicts with your ideas of what you should be able to do, but that's reality. You're not entitled to train (badly, inaccurately, and without any real guidance or basis in knowledge of the art) just because you want to. If you can't handle that reality, frankly, too bad. Deal with it.
Not without getting into a dojo, you won't. Again, that's reality. Deal with it. Throwing a tantrum doesn't make us want to help any more, you know...
What is? Your comment came directly after JKS pointed out that the best you could try is to copy (emptily) the movements of videos, but still wouldn't be learning the art, as you'd miss all the aspects that make it work, and make it the art that it is. So you're saying that you've been trying to say that you can't learn the art after all?
Learning properly under an instructor. And before you think I'm being clever, that's really a big focus for the art. There is a tradition of Isshi Soden, which is direct transmission from teacher to student, ensuring that the art is passed on properly and correctly. And, one more time, without the guidance of an instructor to teach you the correct movement first, and continue to correct your performance of it, you can't learn it, and therefore can't have anything to practice. I mean, I could tell you that you should be practicing soku yaku keri, tsuki, jodan uke nagashi, ganseki nage, omote kote gyaku, and so on, but how are you doing any of those? Are you doing them correctly? How do you know? Without instruction, you don't have anything to practice. So you can't practice anything. That's, one more time, the reality. Don't like it? Too bad. I really want a Ferrari. I can't afford one... but I really want it. It's not fair that it's more expensive than other cars... so why can't I just have one? Because reality is that I can't afford one. You don't have an instructor, due to either there not being one around, or you not being able to afford instruction? Then you can't learn this art. Deal with it.
Isshi Soden. No instructor, no learning. The art is learnt through the experience of training with seniors. You don't have anything that would allow you to learn it, so you can't learn it. As you can't learn it, you have nothing to practice.
Oh boy... no.
Listen, each of the ninjutsu organisations teach from a basis of between 7 and 26 different Ryu-ha (traditional systems). Each has a different focus and approach. Then you have the more "generic" modern arts created out of those traditional ones (such as Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu), but they are so broad in their scope that it's very, very difficult to narrow things down that way. Really, it comes down to getting to a school, and following what the teacher tells you to train. Initially it's going to be kihon, kamae, and ukemi (most likely.... there are exceptions to that)... but exactly which kihon, which kamae etc are going to be determined by what the particular organisation/instructor chooses... there can be quite a bit of variation there. And each needs to be learnt under an instructor who can guide you in how things should be done. Otherwise there's no point, as what you're doing isn't the art, so there's no benefit to training it.
But really, the reality is that you cannot learn without an instructor. Don't like that reality? Tough. It's reality. Deal with it.
Okay?
Blaze Dragon
Blue Belt
Quick question, found this thread interesting. How exactly does someone determine if a school is teaching real Ninjutsu or just slapping the label on there school? I mean take Toshindo from Quest center, which is only a 1 hours drive. In this case I thought he was classically trained in bujinkan and developed his art out of that. I think alot of people have the impression since Hayes was trained as a Shinobi that he is teaching Ninjutsu. Then I hear the argument from some that Ninjutsu is dead and doesn't exist anymore that what is taught today is suppose to be an attempt to revive a dead are (not a direct quote just things I've read online and heard from others. Hearsay if you will, so I'm asking here.)
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Wow.... okay, how long you got?
There's a lot to go into before we even get to the idea of what Toshindo teaches, firstly looking at exactly what ninjutsu is... and, believe it or not, that can be rather hotly debated.
In essence, there are two primary definitions. One is specific, and is used when referring to portions of larger curriculums, found within classical Japanese arts (Koryu). In this definition, ninjutsu refers to a range of information gathering and espionage skills, although the specifics change depending on the system itself (for example, one system might include scouting, another won't, one will focus on anti-espionage, another is more pro-active, some will have sabotage activities, others won't, and so on...).
The second definition is a modern one, and primarily stems from the popularity of organisations such as the Bujinkan, and is a more generic term, used to refer to arts who share some historical connection with the areas of Iga and Koga, as well as other arts, focused on combative methods (as distinct from the specific definition, which is a non-combative definition). Most famously, the Bujinkan was originally known as Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu Bujinkan Dojo (with Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu being the art taught at the Bujinkan Dojo). Over time, the Bujinkan name became the dominant one, for a variety of reasons.
From there, we need to look at this more "modern" usage of the term, and look at what is encompassed by it's use. Starting with the Bujinkan, the technical make-up of the organisation is derived from 9 individual systems, largely related (in two groupings, at least); Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu/Ninjutsu, Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken, Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu, Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Koto Ryu Koppojutsu, Gikan Ryu Koppotaijutsu, Gyokushin Ryu Ninpo, and Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu. Interestingly, it's really only the first six that are used to provide the techniques, with Gikan, Kumogakure, and Gyokushin not really being taught. The reason Togakure Ryu was used as the original name is that it has the longest list of headmasters, giving it precedence over the others, and affording it the greatest position, although the bulk of the techniques and basics coming from other Ryu. Among these systems, there are questions as to the historical validity of a number of them, with others being very well accepted (for a number of reasons). Those that have some doubts include the ninjutsu traditions, which is where a lot of the controversy comes into it. That said, it's generally accepted that the only organisations/schools that have a legit claim to historical traditions of ninjutsu (other than the aforementioned Koryu systems) are the Bujinkan and schools that came from them (such as the Genbukan, the Jinenkan, and Steve Hayes' Toshindo).
Each of the organisations have their own focus and approach... which can make it a little hard to see similarities at times. The Bujinkan, for instance, doesn't really teach any of the various systems it is made up of, instead, the focus is on a more free-form creative expression of martial arts, known as Budo Taijutsu. This expression is explored using the various techniques of the systems, but without necessarily looking at the individual aspects of the various systems (making a congruent whole). The Genbukan, although containing many of the same systems (and a large range of others) is focused on Tanemura's desire to preserve and protect the essence of Japanese traditional martial arts (Tanemura was formerly the Vice President of the Bujinkan, directly under Hatsumi. He left in 1984 to form the Genbukan for a range of reasons that aren't needed to go into here). As a result, the focus is on correct and proper transmission and movement. The Jinenkan is focused on teaching the various Ryu the way they are written in the scrolls that Manaka (head of the Jinenkan, and Hatsumi's first student) received from Hatsumi. Steve Hayes' Toshindo is more focused on modern application.
Now, whether or not you feel that makes Toshindo "ninjutsu" is up to how you interpret the relationship and definition of the term. To me, it's a modern ninjutsu-derived system... although Hayes does still teach the traditional kata as well.
Did that help?
There's a lot to go into before we even get to the idea of what Toshindo teaches, firstly looking at exactly what ninjutsu is... and, believe it or not, that can be rather hotly debated.
In essence, there are two primary definitions. One is specific, and is used when referring to portions of larger curriculums, found within classical Japanese arts (Koryu). In this definition, ninjutsu refers to a range of information gathering and espionage skills, although the specifics change depending on the system itself (for example, one system might include scouting, another won't, one will focus on anti-espionage, another is more pro-active, some will have sabotage activities, others won't, and so on...).
The second definition is a modern one, and primarily stems from the popularity of organisations such as the Bujinkan, and is a more generic term, used to refer to arts who share some historical connection with the areas of Iga and Koga, as well as other arts, focused on combative methods (as distinct from the specific definition, which is a non-combative definition). Most famously, the Bujinkan was originally known as Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu Bujinkan Dojo (with Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu being the art taught at the Bujinkan Dojo). Over time, the Bujinkan name became the dominant one, for a variety of reasons.
From there, we need to look at this more "modern" usage of the term, and look at what is encompassed by it's use. Starting with the Bujinkan, the technical make-up of the organisation is derived from 9 individual systems, largely related (in two groupings, at least); Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu, Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu/Ninjutsu, Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken, Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu, Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Koto Ryu Koppojutsu, Gikan Ryu Koppotaijutsu, Gyokushin Ryu Ninpo, and Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu. Interestingly, it's really only the first six that are used to provide the techniques, with Gikan, Kumogakure, and Gyokushin not really being taught. The reason Togakure Ryu was used as the original name is that it has the longest list of headmasters, giving it precedence over the others, and affording it the greatest position, although the bulk of the techniques and basics coming from other Ryu. Among these systems, there are questions as to the historical validity of a number of them, with others being very well accepted (for a number of reasons). Those that have some doubts include the ninjutsu traditions, which is where a lot of the controversy comes into it. That said, it's generally accepted that the only organisations/schools that have a legit claim to historical traditions of ninjutsu (other than the aforementioned Koryu systems) are the Bujinkan and schools that came from them (such as the Genbukan, the Jinenkan, and Steve Hayes' Toshindo).
Each of the organisations have their own focus and approach... which can make it a little hard to see similarities at times. The Bujinkan, for instance, doesn't really teach any of the various systems it is made up of, instead, the focus is on a more free-form creative expression of martial arts, known as Budo Taijutsu. This expression is explored using the various techniques of the systems, but without necessarily looking at the individual aspects of the various systems (making a congruent whole). The Genbukan, although containing many of the same systems (and a large range of others) is focused on Tanemura's desire to preserve and protect the essence of Japanese traditional martial arts (Tanemura was formerly the Vice President of the Bujinkan, directly under Hatsumi. He left in 1984 to form the Genbukan for a range of reasons that aren't needed to go into here). As a result, the focus is on correct and proper transmission and movement. The Jinenkan is focused on teaching the various Ryu the way they are written in the scrolls that Manaka (head of the Jinenkan, and Hatsumi's first student) received from Hatsumi. Steve Hayes' Toshindo is more focused on modern application.
Now, whether or not you feel that makes Toshindo "ninjutsu" is up to how you interpret the relationship and definition of the term. To me, it's a modern ninjutsu-derived system... although Hayes does still teach the traditional kata as well.
Did that help?
Koryu Rich
Yellow Belt
You mention cost and that you feel instruction is way to expensive for you. If you want instruction then you will find you might have to make some adjustments, it's a case of looking at your leisure activities and deciding which are most important to you.
The same for distance. How far are you willing to travel?
As for what you can do training wise? Get down the gym and improve your fitness levels, improve your flexibility.
Start reading about the traditional Japanese arts and what they involve, what may be expected of you.
Also realise that the help that helps you may not necessarily be the help you want to hear.
Training without person to person guidance will give you a lot of bad habits that you will find very hard to get rid of when you do start training.
If you are so eager and determined to study then why so determined to go about it this way?
Blaze Dragon
Blue Belt
Shorin,
The cold reality is that sometimes in life we want things and cannot afford them. I wanted to be a pilot once and even started taking lessons. Learning martial arts, just about any martial art, is like spare change compared to learning to fly a plane. We are talking $150.00 an hour...not a month... an hour. One day I just decided, I can't afford to do this and I had to set it aside. Maybe someday I will be able to try again but for now it's not possible.
Learning a martial art requires instruction. Imagine learning to read on your own. You could watch movies of other people reading. You could stare at a book for hours and hours. To others it might appear that you are reading. But after a month of "practice" those letters and words would still be a complete mystery to you.
Some of the things folks have said on here may sting. They are probably not what you wanted to hear. But they are the truth.
I know you are enamored with ninjitsu (most of us were at one point) but you should just see what martial arts are in your area and within reach of your budget. Learning a martial art in a classroom with a good teacher and other people is joy. It's the closest thing to real happiness I have ever known. It doesn't really matter all that much what style it is. If you are learning and enjoying yourself then all is well.
If you are just flat broke (hey it happens) check local churches and community centers. Often people teach martial arts in places like that as a charity. I've run accross some pretty darn good clubs in those places.
I've also run into $200 a month ninjitsu schools that just didn't seem worth their salt to me. I am not saying they are all that way but like any art you'll have good and bad clubs.
Your best asset right now is to keep an open mind. Sometimes in life the journey we are on is more important than the journey we wish we were on.
Respectfully,
Jon
The cold reality is that sometimes in life we want things and cannot afford them. I wanted to be a pilot once and even started taking lessons. Learning martial arts, just about any martial art, is like spare change compared to learning to fly a plane. We are talking $150.00 an hour...not a month... an hour. One day I just decided, I can't afford to do this and I had to set it aside. Maybe someday I will be able to try again but for now it's not possible.
Learning a martial art requires instruction. Imagine learning to read on your own. You could watch movies of other people reading. You could stare at a book for hours and hours. To others it might appear that you are reading. But after a month of "practice" those letters and words would still be a complete mystery to you.
Some of the things folks have said on here may sting. They are probably not what you wanted to hear. But they are the truth.
I know you are enamored with ninjitsu (most of us were at one point) but you should just see what martial arts are in your area and within reach of your budget. Learning a martial art in a classroom with a good teacher and other people is joy. It's the closest thing to real happiness I have ever known. It doesn't really matter all that much what style it is. If you are learning and enjoying yourself then all is well.
If you are just flat broke (hey it happens) check local churches and community centers. Often people teach martial arts in places like that as a charity. I've run accross some pretty darn good clubs in those places.
I've also run into $200 a month ninjitsu schools that just didn't seem worth their salt to me. I am not saying they are all that way but like any art you'll have good and bad clubs.
Your best asset right now is to keep an open mind. Sometimes in life the journey we are on is more important than the journey we wish we were on.
Respectfully,
Jon
To the origional poster if you are not really willing to put forth the effort, time and money necessary to learn a system then really you are wasting your time and effort. Your also wasting our time here. Find a local instructor, go and train and learn properly. If you try to "teach yourself" then you will end up with crap. Trust me I have seen it more than a few times and your previous karate experience will not help you a bit. Find an instructor and learn properly. Otherwise head into fantasyland! Sorry to be so blunt! 
OP
shorinfighter
Yellow Belt
- Thread Starter
- #35
I thank everybody for their helpful advice. I also apologise if i came off as rude i meant no disrespect. I will look for instructors in my area and until i find one i will practice the katas i learned from when i was in karate. But i will no longer try to learn over the internet.
OP
shorinfighter
Yellow Belt
- Thread Starter
- #36
but i will not try to teach myself. I will only practice the techniques i learned properly while i was in karate to get better at them.
That's a great attitude and idea.
When I first got involved formally in the martial arts, I was really interested in learning ninjutsu. I owned most of Stephen Hayes's books, watched every ninja movie out there (anyone else remember Sho Kusugi... or the American Ninja movies with Michael Dudikoff?) But I couldn't find it in the area. (This was back in the pre-internet era...) A few friends of mine almost literally tripped over this martial arts club in the area. The price was affordable, it was being taught somewhere I could get to... so I gave it a try. That was more than 25 years ago... and I'm still training and learning Bando. So... keep your eyes open to other possibilities, too. You never know what you might find.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Koryu Rich
Yellow Belt
Practicing the kata you know, providing you know them well enough, will be of benefit to you as far as Karate goes but be aware that you may be drilling movement that could be counter to what you wish to study latter. If you intend to practice Karate still then you of course still need to practice but if not then there are probably other things you can do.
You will need to be able to compartmentalise the different ways of moving and thinking that you will come across. Having one leak into another most of the time is not a good thing.
you have mentioned this interest in Ninjutsu, do you know what is involved in the training? The various organisations and what to keep away from?
J W
Green Belt
Same here, I was obsessed with ninjas when I was younger and read all the Stephen K. Hayes books I could find. There were no ninjutsu schools anywhere near me, though, so when a TKD school opened within bike-riding distance, I signed up. I spent the next 5 or 6 years with that school, and I really enjoyed it and got pretty good at it.
So shorinfighter, I wouldn't rule out other arts. Sounds like you don't know too much about ninjutsu, anyway, so how do you even know that it is what you really want to do? There may be other schools nearby that offer something you'd really enjoy.
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