Power and economy of motion

[tumpaiguy]

My understanding of economy of motion is to get the most out of doing the least. Call it launch, call it explosion, whatever. He is getting a very powerful result from doing very little. No wasted movements is another way to describe EOM. There are no wasted movements in his 1 inch punch. BTW, there are many things done with economy of motion that does not include lauching, like not stepping farther then you have to to avoid a strike, or keeping your hands up instead of at your waste. So launching really has very little to do with economy of motion in the big picture.

With Respect,
Jerry

 

[Touch Of Death]

My understanding of economy of motion is to get the most out of doing the least. Call it launch, call it explosion, whatever. He is getting a very powerful result from doing very little. No wasted movements is another way to describe EOM. There are no wasted movements in his 1 inch punch. BTW, there are many things done with economy of motion that does not include lauching, like not stepping farther then you have to to avoid a strike, or keeping your hands up instead of at your waste. So launching really has very little to do with economy of motion in the big picture.

With Respect,
Jerry

Launching is your attitude of motion so stepping off the line of attack could be considered launching off the line of attack by some. Anyways, I did miswrite. Launch is not a required component; however I can't go with a one inch punch as the example of economy of motion. It may or may not be the closest weapon to the closest target, while still achieving the desired effect. Since when is your hip the closest weapon to the closest target? The guy really had to pass through all your defensive ranges to wind up with a target one inch from your hip.
Sean (www.iemat.com)

 

[psi_radar]

Five Swords is a fun technique to play with. We've worked on the entry quite a bit with the universal conclusion that the technique works, and well, if the roundhouse is intercepted very early in the launch. On the other hand, if the roundhouse/haymaker has time to come around, you'd be better off trying to tighten range and deliver an elbow to the solar plexus or use your opponent's momentum and arm to throw them to the ground. You can retain the arm and lock it up once they're on the ground. Another fun variation is to insert a hip throw at the point you'd normally do an uppercut. But I digress.

Here's something you may or may not have thought of. Rather focusing on the power, i.e. force of your blows, try thinking about the effect you want to deliver. You ultimately want pain and compliance, right? A lot of pain isn't generated simply by the force of the blow, but where and how deep that blow resonates within the body.

For example, try this as an exercise. Get a skilled and willing accomplice to punch you once fast and hard in the abdomen (not in the solar plexus, to the left or right and a little lower), but while only attempting to penetrate to the back of your abdominal muscle walls. This is how we often strike, especially when thinking about building speed or over-anticipating our next move; we tend to pull it a little early, penetrating shallowly while retaining a lot of energy in tensed muscles. After appreciating that experience, ask him to slowly, with a relaxed arm, deliberately punch in the same place while trying to reach your backbone, and without immediately drawing back his arm. It's almost like a deep push with knuckles on the end. Even though the first punch cost your friend a great deal more energy, my bet is the second one made you feel MUCH more shocked and debilitated.

Now try it with the technique. In the Five Swords entry, get in as fast as necessary, but instead of focusing on speed and force with your blocks, try thinking of staying relaxed until the point of impact, and then suddenly "put weight" or "intent" directly into your hands. Yes, you are using a conscious thought that results in your mass fully engaging on a localized area of contact. Sounds weird, but it works. Then think the movement through, and rather than simply making contact, aim deeper and use follow-through to really nail the muscle and nerve centers. Penetrate rather than hit; think about your hands actually coming out the other side. Once you get the feel for this, try adapting the practice to other strikes. Have fun and be sympathetic to your partner, this can really sting!

 

[tumpaiguy]

so stepping off the line of attack could be considered launching off the line of attack by some.



Since when is your hip the closest weapon to the closest target? The guy really had to pass through all your defensive ranges to wind up with a target one inch from your hip.
Sean (www.iemat.com)

Ok, and the 1 inch punch could be considered a good example of economy of motion by some depending on how you look at it.

I don't get the hip reference, what is that referring to?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Ok, and the 1 inch punch could be considered a good example of economy of motion by some depending on how you look at it.

I don't get the hip reference, what is that referring to?

I was assuming you were punching one inch from your own body, or off the hip. From where would you execute a one inch punch?
Sean

 

[tumpaiguy]

So, have you not seen the 1 inch punch? He starts with his fist 1 inch from the target, which is a guy holding a pad against his chest. Without drawing back or chambering he punches the guy and knocks him back several feet. It would seem to weaken your arguement if you are debating something you haven't seen.

Respectfully,
Jerry

 

[Touch Of Death]

So, have you not seen the 1 inch punch? He starts with his fist 1 inch from the target, which is a guy holding a pad against his chest. Without drawing back or chambering he punches the guy and knocks him back several feet. It would seem to weaken your arguement if you are debating something you haven't seen.

Respectfully,
Jerry

I saw it done by a local JKD guy named Paul. His arm didn't look extended but lets forget methods and talk about economy of motion. The term refers to moving from one move to the next as well as efficiantly executing a single move; so, we are arguing apples and oranges.
Sean

 

[tumpaiguy]

Let's break this down a little. Motion indicates movement. Any time you make your movements more economic without sacrificing results, thats economy of motion!

 

[Rainman]

Let's break this down a little. Motion indicates movement. Any time you make your movements more economic without sacrificing results, thats economy of motion!

Movement idicates movement. Is more specific than motion because movement is a particular instance or manner in moving. To define in the way you did is very open ended and leaves too much for interpretation. What does make your movements more economic mean? What concepts to follow in order to make this statement true or false?

The flip side is you are using this as a header that sub divides out for further detail and gives the definition it's real meaning depending on the circumstance in which the concept is used. Meaning is will have some flexibility in how in can be applied.

 

[Bill Lear]

Movement indicates movement. Is more specific than motion because movement is a particular instance or manner in moving. To define in the way you did is very open ended and leaves too much for interpretation. What does make your movements more economic mean? What concepts to follow in order to make this statement true or false?

The flip side is you are using this as a header that sub divides out for further detail and gives the definition it's real meaning depending on the circumstance in which the concept is used. Meaning is will have some flexibility in how in can be applied.

MOVEMENT
Main Entry: move·ment
Pronunciation: 'müv-m&nt
Function: noun
1 a (1) : the act or process of moving; especially : change of place or position or posture (2) : a particular instance or manner of moving b (1) : a tactical or strategic shifting of a military unit : MANEUVER (2) : the advance of a military unit c : ACTION, ACTIVITY -- usually used in plural
2 a : TENDENCY, TREND <detected a movement toward fairer pricing> b : a series of organized activities working toward an objective; also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end <the civil rights movement>
3 : the moving parts of a mechanism that transmit a definite motion
4 a : MOTION 7 b : the rhythmic character or quality of a musical composition c : a distinct structural unit or division having its own key, rhythmic structure, and themes and forming part of an extended musical composition d : particular rhythmic flow of language : CADENCE
5 a : the quality (as in a painting or sculpture) of representing or suggesting motion b : the vibrant quality in literature that comes from elements that constantly hold a reader's interest (as a quickly moving action-filled plot)
6 a : an act of voiding the bowels b : matter expelled from the bowels at one passage

Economy
Main Entry: 1econ·o·my
Pronunciation: i-'kä-n&-mE, &-, E-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -mies
Etymology: Middle French yconomie, from Medieval Latin oeconomia, from Greek oikonomia, from oikonomos household manager, from oikos house + nemein to manage -- more at VICINITY, NIMBLE
1 archaic : the management of household or private affairs and especially expenses
2 a : thrifty and efficient use of material resources : frugality in expenditures; also : an instance or a means of economizing : SAVING b : efficient and concise use of nonmaterial resources (as effort, language, or motion)
3 : the arrangement or mode of operation of something : ORGANIZATION
4 : the structure of economic life in a country, area, or period; specifically : an economic system

MOTION
Main Entry: 1mo·tion
Pronunciation: 'mO-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mocioun, from Middle French motion, from Latin motion-, motio movement, from movEre to move
1 a : an act, process, or instance of changing place : MOVEMENT b : an active or functioning state or condition <set the divorce proceedings in motion>
2 : an impulse or inclination of the mind or will
3 a : a proposal for action; especially : a formal proposal made in a deliberative assembly b : an application made to a court or judge to obtain an order, ruling, or direction
4 obsolete a : a puppet show b : PUPPET
5 : MECHANISM
6 a : an act or instance of moving the body or its parts : GESTURE b plural : ACTIVITIES, MOVEMENTS
7 : melodic change of pitch
- mo·tion·al /'mO-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective
- mo·tion·less /'mO-sh&n-l&s/ adjective
- mo·tion·less·ly adverb
- mo·tion·less·ness noun
- in motion of an offensive football player : running parallel to the line of scrimmage before the snap

Chad,

I think tumpaiguy is onto something, and your splitting hairs that just don't seem to be there.

:asian:

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Movement idicates movement. Is more specific than motion because movement is a particular instance or manner in moving. To define in the way you did is very open ended and leaves too much for interpretation. What does make your movements more economic mean? What concepts to follow in order to make this statement true or false?

The flip side is you are using this as a header that sub divides out for further detail and gives the definition it's real meaning depending on the circumstance in which the concept is used. Meaning is will have some flexibility in how in can be applied.

Don't Bogart whatever you're smoking cuz it must be some good stuff. What exactly are you trying to say?

Dark Lord

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Economy of motion is one of those things that gets covered in the history of stats, physics, org. development, etc. Relates historically to the efficiancy experts from the onset of the industrial age, assisting with bricklaying. Efficiency guy observes brick layers, and counts how many bricks can be laid per some period of time. Watching them, he notes the slower ones make bigger motions in picking the brick up, and holding it well above the intended placement target before putting it down.

This wider arc takes longer to get a brick placed, meaning fewer bricks per hour, meaning increased labor costs. What to do? Shorten the path of delivery...point of origin (the brick heap) to point of contact (the wall with cement schmutz). Trying to apply the brick REALLY HARD is not even part of the picture; simply applying MORE bricks in LESS time.

Take a mental inventory of the martial arts that were available at the time AK was being developed into what it is we train in now. Mainly, hard-style karate, with the hand returning to the chambered position at the hip prior to execution of each next move. Want to hit a guy 5 times? Return to the hip between each hit.

Five swords would take forever, and look very different than what we know. Inward block, return R. hand to hip. Outward handsword, return right hand to hip...and so on. The flow of energy from blow to blow that is the visually identifiable hallmark of AK techniques, without a lot of "returning to hip" types of movements, is the economy of motion.

Power is still related to increases in momentum. Wanna hit hard? Need more energy. Chamber that blow! Wanna hit a buncha times fast? Don't chamber it...instead, find the next open target near your next readily available natural weapon, and stick a hard part of your body in a soft part of theirs. With practice, you'll develop the ability to put some chutzpah behind the shorter moves, but they are simply not designed to take you through a stack of terra cotta tiles like some of the power blows.

Complementary, but different.

D.

 

[Rainman]

MOVEMENT
Main Entry: move·ment
Pronunciation: 'müv-m&nt
Function: noun
1 a (1) : the act or process of moving; especially : change of place or position or posture (2) : a particular instance or manner of moving b (1) : a tactical or strategic shifting of a military unit : MANEUVER (2) : the advance of a military unit c : ACTION, ACTIVITY -- usually used in plural
2 a : TENDENCY, TREND <detected a movement toward fairer pricing> b : a series of organized activities working toward an objective; also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end <the civil rights movement>
3 : the moving parts of a mechanism that transmit a definite motion
4 a : MOTION 7 b : the rhythmic character or quality of a musical composition c : a distinct structural unit or division having its own key, rhythmic structure, and themes and forming part of an extended musical composition d : particular rhythmic flow of language : CADENCE
5 a : the quality (as in a painting or sculpture) of representing or suggesting motion b : the vibrant quality in literature that comes from elements that constantly hold a reader's interest (as a quickly moving action-filled plot)
6 a : an act of voiding the bowels b : matter expelled from the bowels at one passage

Economy
Main Entry: 1econ·o·my
Pronunciation: i-'kä-n&-mE, &-, E-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -mies
Etymology: Middle French yconomie, from Medieval Latin oeconomia, from Greek oikonomia, from oikonomos household manager, from oikos house + nemein to manage -- more at VICINITY, NIMBLE
1 archaic : the management of household or private affairs and especially expenses
2 a : thrifty and efficient use of material resources : frugality in expenditures; also : an instance or a means of economizing : SAVING b : efficient and concise use of nonmaterial resources (as effort, language, or motion)
3 : the arrangement or mode of operation of something : ORGANIZATION
4 : the structure of economic life in a country, area, or period; specifically : an economic system

MOTION
Main Entry: 1mo·tion
Pronunciation: 'mO-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mocioun, from Middle French motion, from Latin motion-, motio movement, from movEre to move
1 a : an act, process, or instance of changing place : MOVEMENT b : an active or functioning state or condition <set the divorce proceedings in motion>
2 : an impulse or inclination of the mind or will
3 a : a proposal for action; especially : a formal proposal made in a deliberative assembly b : an application made to a court or judge to obtain an order, ruling, or direction
4 obsolete a : a puppet show b : PUPPET
5 : MECHANISM
6 a : an act or instance of moving the body or its parts : GESTURE b plural : ACTIVITIES, MOVEMENTS
7 : melodic change of pitch
- mo·tion·al /'mO-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective
- mo·tion·less /'mO-sh&n-l&s/ adjective
- mo·tion·less·ly adverb
- mo·tion·less·ness noun
- in motion of an offensive football player : running parallel to the line of scrimmage before the snap

Chad,

I think tumpaiguy is onto something, and your splitting hairs that just don't seem to be there.

:asian:

They are not there for you... Kenpo perpetually refines itself. What I use are sub cats to aid in refinement of movement. I have only shown you a small version of what exits here. Use it or don't.

 

[Gary Crawford]

Economy of motion is one of those things that gets covered in the history of stats, physics, org. development, etc. Relates historically to the efficiancy experts from the onset of the industrial age, assisting with bricklaying. Efficiency guy observes brick layers, and counts how many bricks can be laid per some period of time. Watching them, he notes the slower ones make bigger motions in picking the brick up, and holding it well above the intended placement target before putting it down.

This wider arc takes longer to get a brick placed, meaning fewer bricks per hour, meaning increased labor costs. What to do? Shorten the path of delivery...point of origin (the brick heap) to point of contact (the wall with cement schmutz). Trying to apply the brick REALLY HARD is not even part of the picture; simply applying MORE bricks in LESS time.

Take a mental inventory of the martial arts that were available at the time AK was being developed into what it is we train in now. Mainly, hard-style karate, with the hand returning to the chambered position at the hip prior to execution of each next move. Want to hit a guy 5 times? Return to the hip between each hit.

Five swords would take forever, and look very different than what we know. Inward block, return R. hand to hip. Outward handsword, return right hand to hip...and so on. The flow of energy from blow to blow that is the visually identifiable hallmark of AK techniques, without a lot of "returning to hip" types of movements, is the economy of motion.

Power is still related to increases in momentum. Wanna hit hard? Need more energy. Chamber that blow! Wanna hit a buncha times fast? Don't chamber it...instead, find the next open target near your next readily available natural weapon, and stick a hard part of your body in a soft part of theirs. With practice, you'll develop the ability to put some chutzpah behind the shorter moves, but they are simply not designed to take you through a stack of terra cotta tiles like some of the power blows.

Complementary, but different.

D.

I find this completely true(long way to get there though).Econemy in motion should always be the goal when effecency is essential.To put it in simple terms,if you have time to chamber your strike,do it.You will obviously hit harder.The point(I think) is that having that luxury of having time to chamber strikes in a real fight (or competition) isn't always there.That's why it is a good idea to also train in the ability to strike without chambering and still deliver hard impact.The "one Inch punch" was mentioned before and is a great example of the potential of unchambered power.If you don't believe what the one inch punch is capable of,then find someone who is at least half assed proficient in the strike.Have them hit a thick phonebook press against your chest.If they have a good concept of how to exicute it,you will feel it go all the way through you.Then after you understand that,then imagine how much impact potential that one can really deliver from slightly longer ranges.

 

[Rainman]

Don't Bogart whatever you're smoking cuz it must be some good stuff. What exactly are you trying to say?

Dark Lord

Sorry I refuse to feed the trolls anymore.

 

[Rainman]

Economy of motion is one of those things that gets covered in the history of stats, physics, org. development, etc. Relates historically to the efficiancy experts from the onset of the industrial age, assisting with bricklaying. Efficiency guy observes brick layers, and counts how many bricks can be laid per some period of time. Watching them, he notes the slower ones make bigger motions in picking the brick up, and holding it well above the intended placement target before putting it down.

This wider arc takes longer to get a brick placed, meaning fewer bricks per hour, meaning increased labor costs. What to do? Shorten the path of delivery...point of origin (the brick heap) to point of contact (the wall with cement schmutz). Trying to apply the brick REALLY HARD is not even part of the picture; simply applying MORE bricks in LESS time.

Take a mental inventory of the martial arts that were available at the time AK was being developed into what it is we train in now. Mainly, hard-style karate, with the hand returning to the chambered position at the hip prior to execution of each next move. Want to hit a guy 5 times? Return to the hip between each hit.

Five swords would take forever, and look very different than what we know. Inward block, return R. hand to hip. Outward handsword, return right hand to hip...and so on. The flow of energy from blow to blow that is the visually identifiable hallmark of AK techniques, without a lot of "returning to hip" types of movements, is the economy of motion.

Power is still related to increases in momentum. Wanna hit hard? Need more energy. Chamber that blow! Wanna hit a buncha times fast? Don't chamber it...instead, find the next open target near your next readily available natural weapon, and stick a hard part of your body in a soft part of theirs. With practice, you'll develop the ability to put some chutzpah behind the shorter moves, but they are simply not designed to take you through a stack of terra cotta tiles like some of the power blows.

Complementary, but different.

D.

Complementary but different... Wish I thought of that!

 

[Bill Lear]

They are not there for you... Kenpo perpetually refines itself.

What is not there for me? What are you talking about???

What I use are sub cats to aid in refinement of movement.

Subcatagories of what exactly?

I have only shown you a small version of what exits here. Use it or don't.

You haven't shown me anything. I don't know what you're talking about. Do you? (Seriously.)


:asian:

 

[Bill Lear]

Economy of motion is one of those things that gets covered in the history of stats, physics, org. development, etc. Relates historically to the efficiancy experts from the onset of the industrial age, assisting with bricklaying. Efficiency guy observes brick layers, and counts how many bricks can be laid per some period of time. Watching them, he notes the slower ones make bigger motions in picking the brick up, and holding it well above the intended placement target before putting it down.

This wider arc takes longer to get a brick placed, meaning fewer bricks per hour, meaning increased labor costs. What to do? Shorten the path of delivery...point of origin (the brick heap) to point of contact (the wall with cement schmutz). Trying to apply the brick REALLY HARD is not even part of the picture; simply applying MORE bricks in LESS time.

Take a mental inventory of the martial arts that were available at the time AK was being developed into what it is we train in now. Mainly, hard-style karate, with the hand returning to the chambered position at the hip prior to execution of each next move. Want to hit a guy 5 times? Return to the hip between each hit.

Five swords would take forever, and look very different than what we know. Inward block, return R. hand to hip. Outward handsword, return right hand to hip...and so on. The flow of energy from blow to blow that is the visually identifiable hallmark of AK techniques, without a lot of "returning to hip" types of movements, is the economy of motion.

Power is still related to increases in momentum. Wanna hit hard? Need more energy. Chamber that blow! Wanna hit a buncha times fast? Don't chamber it...instead, find the next open target near your next readily available natural weapon, and stick a hard part of your body in a soft part of theirs. With practice, you'll develop the ability to put some chutzpah behind the shorter moves, but they are simply not designed to take you through a stack of terra cotta tiles like some of the power blows.

Complementary, but different.

D.

So your comparing Economy of motion to an actual economic system...

Inflation = chambering

Depression = Not enough momentum

etc...

I get it, but I thought we were training in proper body mechanics to hit just as hard from point of origin, instead of having to waste time and rechamber. ( <---Just a thought.)


:asian:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

So your comparing Economy of motion to an actual economic system...

Inflation = chambering

Depression = Not enough momentum

etc...

I get it, but I thought we were training in proper body mechanics to hit just as hard from point of origin, instead of having to waste time and rechamber. ( <---Just a thought.)


:asian:

Leopards Paw, 1st strike. The most economical line of drive would be to simply place the inverted backnuckle to the back of attackers head, without gaining distance prior to the strike via the looping action. However, the impact at time of contact, as well as the excursion of the strike into the target, would be pretty much nil.

(still like the grab-and-beat stuff )

 

[pete]

the beauty of kenpo is in its continuity... offense within defense, action within reaction. the beginning of one technique cannot be separated from the end of the previous, making "point of origin" more of a path than a specific point. the use of minor moves to obscure, distract, and unsettle, and major moves to deliver power are balanced and build an economy of motion towards the condition as a whole, not just a single action or even a series of singular cause and effects.

...or, i may just be mistaken...

pete.