Training guns with blanks

[teej]

This is just a heads up warning. The was a previous thread about Kenpo gun techniques that has been closed. The point was brought up about the defenders reaction to the sound if the gun went off.

I just want to caution anyone out there that may have gotten an idea to train with a gun with blanks. (again this is if someone got that idea)

Guns with blanks are dangerous. Several years ago, an actor on a set was showing off with a gun he knew was loaded with blanks. He accidently killed himself infront of everyone thinking that the because they were blanks...........well you get the idea. Bottom line, the gun with loaded with blanks killed him. (no, I am not referring to the Brandon Lee incident, that was completely different circumstances)

Anyway, I don't want to start a thread on gun safety. This is just in case someone read the previous thread and possibly got the idea they could practice with a gun loaded with blanks. I just want to make it clear to anyone out there reading that may not be familiar with guns, that at close range, blanks can cause serious bodily injury and even death.

Train safe, YOU are responsible for you actions.
Yours in Kenpo,
Teej

 

[Seig]

The incident you are referring to was actor John Erik Hexsum (sp?). He was on the hit series' Time Travellers and Cover Up with Jennifer O'Neil. You are absolutely correct, he placed a gun loaded with blanks against his temple and the wad from the load pushed a quarter sized piece of his skull into his brain. This happened about 1985. Other issues to be concerned with are hearing damage and flash burns. Blanks are not a good idea for training self defense techniques.

 

[teej]

Thank you Seig, I was racking my brain trying to remember the actors name and what the show was called.

Teej

 

[MisterMike]

I can't say for sure what's on these gun videos, but looks like blanks(?)

Probably not for the beginner. I've beento their camp and it's quite a dose of reality.

http://www.wayofthewinds.com/video.htm

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

I just took a look at the video a few times.

I can't tell if its blanks or maybe they could be caps too.


Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

 

[kenpo12]

Never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever train with real guns.

End of story.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Something I'm wondering about, lately--why does it make sense to train in ways that raise your risks higher than they get, "on the street," you're supposedly training for? Or to train in ways that virtually guarantee long-term damage, so that you'll, "be prepared," against the possibility of getting hurt?

Seems to me that the mention of two actors killed with blanks, or unloaded guns, was a pretty good illustration of why we don't do that--just like (for those who didn't know) the Internationals tape of those idiots with the sword and the cucumber on the throat were a pretty good illustration of why wedon't do that.

Man walks into a doctor's office.

"Hey doc, every time I raise my arm like this (he illustrates), it hurts."

Doc says, "Well, don't raise your arm like that."

 

[MisterMike]

I think training with real guns that are not fireable is OK. Like if you remove the firing pin, etc. There are replicas with the sme weight as well.

Oh - There's a difference between a demonstration (cucumber guy) and real weapons training.

I recently watched that old documentary "Budo" where the Kendo schools train in paired excercises with live blades. I think this kind of training raises the discipline bar quite a bit than if they were using wooden bokens.

Definitely not for everyone.

Whenever you introduce weapons training, the risk for serious injury goes up. The type of weapon also has a bit to do with it. I know most karate schools work with stick and knife disarms. The usually use a wooden stick, but rarely a live blade. But I think not using a live blade at some point never lets you fully respect what it can do.

 

[pete]

why does it make sense to train in ways that raise your risks higher than they get, "on the street,"- rmcrobertson

my tai chi master says you're more apt to get sick than to get attacked, so exercise for health and be prepared for defense.

this "on the street" stuff is getting overplayed. it happens, but one can train effectively without raising the terror alert passed orange.

 

[kenpo12]

this "on the street" stuff is getting overplayed. it happens, but one can train effectively without raising the terror alert passed orange.

AMEN!

 

[pete]

But I think not using a live blade at some point never lets you fully respect what it can do. - mr.mike

while i respect your point of view, i cannot agree. training with a live blade is going to injure someone, period. if we were samurai preparing for a battle with a 50/50 chance of coming out alive, at best, training may need to be raised up a notch. but if most of you guys are like me, well, the odds are a little more in our favor of getting through another day at the office unharmed.

2 years ago, i trained for the long island marathon. i followed a well respected training program, and the first time i went the distance was the day of the race. yes, it goes through your mind, will i hit the wall at the last 3 miles? but you do rise above it when needed and smart training pays off.

just a thought...

 

[kenpo12]

I'm beginning to think that a lot of peoples over infatuation with realism is nothing more than a manifestation of lack of self confidence. There comes a point in training where you are defeating the purpose and possibly risking more harm than good.
There is a certain amount of realism that should be in your training but more people are killed with weapons that are unloaded than loaded if you know what I mean.

 

[rmcrobertson]

In the cucumber-and-sword demo I saw, one guy lay down and put the cucumber on his throat.

It's remarkable how far that jugular vein will spit blood.

I'd thought kendo guys wore armor, and used wooden bokken.

As for live blades, well, sword practice and forms are one thing...sparring is another.

Realism? Here are the two first things I was taught about knife techs: a) don't do them unless you're really in deep doo-doo and you have no other choice; b) if you do them, "for real," you are going to get cut; you only get to choose how bad.

If you practice with live blades, you will be cut. Probably badly, sooner or later.

Sorry, but ALL training is unrealistic at some level. We're just arguing about level. Personally, I think it is more unrealistic to train with sharp knives and any sort of loaded guns, because a) we aren't in the SEALS and we are not going to be in the SEALS, b) getting cut or shot tends to crush the kind of confidence (AKA blind, stupid arrogance and optimism) that you will need if it is, "for-real," c) even live blades will not be real, because the intent isn't there, d) getting cut cuts your training time considerably, e) live blade means you cannot execute as closely, as strongly, or as rapidly as you might, "on the street."

I very much appreciated the point about training for health. Personally, I think that the vast majority of martial artists--if they really wanted to be realistic--would be better served with the unglamorous: a) check your tires and brakes and drop 5 or 10 MPH, b) get a non-skid mat for your tub, c) get your checkups done regularly, d) watch your diet 5% better, e) meditate more and cut some stress, f) hug your kids more, g) do a little against poverty.

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by kenpo12
I'm beginning to think that a lot of peoples over infatuation with realism is nothing more than a manifestation of lack of self confidence. There comes a point in training where you are defeating the purpose and possibly risking more harm than good.
There is a certain amount of realism that should be in your training but more people are killed with weapons that are unloaded than loaded if you know what I mean.

It's OK. It's perfectly natural to feel you have to criticize a particular groups methods of training when you would never attempt it yourself. It's a defense mechanism.

I reeeallly doubt the two Kendo practitioners (not sport Kendo, no pads here) on the video have a self confidence problem.

But it's all good. We're here to get these feelings and issues out on the table to help one another.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Actually, Mike, it's common sense.

 

[MisterMike]

"Overinfatuation with realism?" When did this become the label for traditional martial arts training? Sounds like lack of sense.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Mike, the website you listed earlier also features arrow-stopping technique. Uh....

Look, my point are really rather straightforward, and the first of them is that it makes very little sense for most of us to train in ways that are guaranteed to cause more-or-less permanent injury, whether this happens in the short of the long run.

Second, my point is that, "realism," has become an excuse for folks to get into all sorts of mad crap in the martial arts--like back-yard wrestlers hitting each other with chairs.

Third, folks, I guarantee you that if you train with blanks, or with live blades--and I'm just talking about kenpo here--sooner or later, you or somebody you train with is going to get hurt bad.

And last--I will bet a shiny nickel that people who claim to be training realistically in kenpo with live blades are, in fact, artificially restricting all sorts of the, "conditions of copmbat."

 

[kenpo12]

"Overinfatuation with realism?" When did this become the label for traditional martial arts training? Sounds like lack of sense.

Never said that about TMA training nor did I aim my comment towards you directly. I also have no problem with realistic training but there are boundries. I draw the line a using real weapon. Rattan sticks are one thing, if there is a slip you might break a finger or bruise something. Training with real weapons (guns, knives) is over the line. I don't care how careful you are or how much you think you're an expert.
You can believe whatever you would like, and that's your opinion but I dissagree strongly with using real weapons, especially guns.

 

[MisterMike]

Yes! There were arrow catching demo's Aren't they great?

OK, look, I agree that if you train long and hard enough with live weapons you're going to get knicked. The possibility of serious injury exists as well, but some schools are for those types of people. Ones who are willing to immerse themselves into their study. And yes, admittedly, you may need to have a "screw loose" or two as compared to the average Joe.

I've been to both types of training, and they each have their merits. In fact, I am now under a teacher who comes from such an environment. And just as there are those who laugh at the others for training with live blades, there are those at the other end of the spectrum who shake their heads at the "softer" schools.

No big deal. But it's not a macho factor, a self confidence boost or something these guys put on a 6 foot trophy. I think there are sound, practical reasons for that type of training.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I see I wasn't clear. I disagree with the claim that training with live blades and blanks is for those who REALLY want to learn, to REALLY "immerse themselves," in their training. I think I can honestly say that at times at least, I've been as immersed as anybody else.

It's just a different way to train. It's not better; and from my viewpoint, in my opinion, it is both unnecessary and unnecessarily dangerous.