mozzandherb
Green Belt
Yes, but that was in a controlled environment...much different
physical fitness & self defense.
- Thread starter jarrod
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Nolerama
Master Black Belt
I don't think size is as much a factor as sheer athleticism. Couple that with technique and you have an effective way to defend yourself.
Besides, size by no means implies physical fitness.
mozzandherb
Green Belt
haha...didn't know he was a street fighter
Still if I had to choose I would choose Helio over let's say Tyson anyday
Well I don't think you can necessarily assume that you won't be wrestling with someone. If you get tackled well from the side and are unaware you certainly will be wrestling. Sparring is a poor word to use however it is very necessary to learn to strike effectively and if some exchanging of blows is required then it definitely requires some fitness even with technique
When things such as adrenal dumping come in to play it is not always possible to have perfect balance, timing and technique etc so worst case scenario is there is some scuffling which can take its toll physically. As for ki and breathing, well that's nice in theory but in a surprise attack or even one that is relatively sudden generating ki is not an option and controlling your breathing to a point of truly increasing your strength (I'm assuming you are referring to ki building type breathing) while performing a physical task is not easy under pressure and regardless of how often you have used ki on students or others in the dojo, using in the street against armed attackers is damn risky.
I'm picturing you using Aikido type techniques in this scenario such as locks etc and moving. This sort of thing is great in the dojo but if this is all you are doing and your fellow students are attacking then given the nature of the tecniques it is very hard to know how it would relate to the street as these students know how to flow with your techniques and comply in this way hense making them seem easier to perform. Striking/self defense scenarios with some reasonable sort of contact both receiving and giving are necessary to be able to deal with such scenarios and these do require physical fitness
Practicing technique will NOT develop physical fitness of any real use. Practicing technique will refine the technique. In BJJ learning and practicing the technique won't develop fitness but when you grapple, that is when you develop fitness. With strikes, learning the movements of the strike will not develop fitness, but once you start hitting pads and sparring/doing full on self defense scenarios your fitness will develop.
In my opinion it is irresponsible for martial artists to be out of shape. Sure a little bit of weight because of laziness is ok but relying solely on technique and think that you will be fine is silly. Also if you a a fat lazy smoker then the option of running is totally out of the question which takes away one option before an attack has ever occured.
Cheers
Sam :asian:
redantstyle
Blue Belt
this horse is fossilized, but...
If you can execute a 'technique', you dont need much strength at all. personally, i dont consider it 'gung fu' unless it is relatively effortless. most of what i have done in my life has not been 'gung fu'. but from time to time....
if someone is larger, then they can execute a more powerful technique. it is a matter of mass, primarily.
strength, as in brute force, can be a major asset, depending on your opponent. the root flaw in brute force is that it is entirely relative. the smaller your opponent, the better it works. and vice versa.
i've had sparring partners pushing a hundred pounds more than me. so i can appreciate the distinction. i could lift all the weights i wanted to, but the return is simply not worth it.
barring all of the above, what is core to self defense is anaerobic capability. i find the '3 second rule' to be one simple evidence of this.
regards.
If you can execute a 'technique', you dont need much strength at all. personally, i dont consider it 'gung fu' unless it is relatively effortless. most of what i have done in my life has not been 'gung fu'. but from time to time....
if someone is larger, then they can execute a more powerful technique. it is a matter of mass, primarily.
strength, as in brute force, can be a major asset, depending on your opponent. the root flaw in brute force is that it is entirely relative. the smaller your opponent, the better it works. and vice versa.
i've had sparring partners pushing a hundred pounds more than me. so i can appreciate the distinction. i could lift all the weights i wanted to, but the return is simply not worth it.
barring all of the above, what is core to self defense is anaerobic capability. i find the '3 second rule' to be one simple evidence of this.
regards.
Archangel M
Senior Master
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I think that some people are under the TV/Movie impression that when they get attacked they are just going to throw that 1-4 seconds of "technique"...barely break a sweat...and then dust off their sleeves as they stroll away. When In many cases you could be in a "rolling around" streetfight that will be lost by the first person who runs out of gas.
by and large, western martial arts "technique" training is less painful, strenuous, and more "fun" than fitness training.
by and large, western martial arts "technique" training is less painful, strenuous, and more "fun" than fitness training.
Phoenix44
Master of Arts
Fitness. So you can run away.
mozzandherb
Green Belt
That is actually a very good point
emiliozapata
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I get mocked alot over in a different forum for advocating extreme physical conditioning. Besides all the excellent points mentioned, this type of training confronts your own mental weakness and lets you learn to deal with pain and adversity and hopefully to keep pushing forward.
Senjojutsu
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Hello Jarrod & others,
I have seen this fitness vs. technique topic discussed several times before during past years – as devil’s advocate I counter with - “never confuse fitness with fighting ability”.
Seriously, I agree with several posts that fitness is a very important component in training – but fitness training for what (specific) end goals?
I will give you a counter analogy:
If as an example, a group of ten (competitive Triathlon) athletes walked into an outlaw biker bar and squared off against ten, grizzled bikers – which of these groups would you wager next month’s rent money on?
By any measurable scale or testing - those ten tri-athletes are the “fitter individuals”.
But the outlaw bikers are “hardened individuals” who have proven their basic brawling techniques in many a bar, out on the streets and within county lock-ups.
Now if the brawl would go on for over a minute – yes the tri-athletes, now sans a few teeth, would have the stamina edge. But then again by that elapsed time – weapons and gunplay would most likely be involved in this real-life example.
…and I think medical science has clearly shown that a sucking chest wound decreases one’s aerobic capacity.
:uhyeah:
Now if you could get a bunch of outlaw bikers, or English football yobs, into a training regimen for a competitive Triathlon – those would be people I would NOT want to meet in any dark alley.
I have seen this fitness vs. technique topic discussed several times before during past years – as devil’s advocate I counter with - “never confuse fitness with fighting ability”.
Seriously, I agree with several posts that fitness is a very important component in training – but fitness training for what (specific) end goals?
I will give you a counter analogy:
If as an example, a group of ten (competitive Triathlon) athletes walked into an outlaw biker bar and squared off against ten, grizzled bikers – which of these groups would you wager next month’s rent money on?
By any measurable scale or testing - those ten tri-athletes are the “fitter individuals”.
But the outlaw bikers are “hardened individuals” who have proven their basic brawling techniques in many a bar, out on the streets and within county lock-ups.
Now if the brawl would go on for over a minute – yes the tri-athletes, now sans a few teeth, would have the stamina edge. But then again by that elapsed time – weapons and gunplay would most likely be involved in this real-life example.
…and I think medical science has clearly shown that a sucking chest wound decreases one’s aerobic capacity.
:uhyeah:
Now if you could get a bunch of outlaw bikers, or English football yobs, into a training regimen for a competitive Triathlon – those would be people I would NOT want to meet in any dark alley.
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No Emilio, you get mocked because a lot of us think "Kug Maky Ung Ryu Ninjutsu is a silly name. And because you don't know where I live (I hope) so there's nothing you can do about it, even if you are totally ripped. So There!
Er... other than that, I pretty much agree.
Hmmm thats true. I dont think ive seen you mocked for the extreme phyical conditing aspect of it. maybe your thinking of the techique part of it. honestly if i had the time (university students dont) and equipment, i would definaly do alot of physical training, just because i like the thought of my body being the most effiecent and powerful it can be. thats why i like ninjutsu, it brings effiecently to a whole new level.
unfortunaly im stuck with jogging, push-ups and those jackknifes on wii-fit as my physical training tools (wii fit or not those jackknifes work wonders on the abs)
Why are you stuck with those items as your means of getting fit? There are a bunch of things you can do for fitness, but lets save that for another thread.
well those are my chosen methods, considering my time and financial restraints, but yes i could easily do more. i don't need to at the moment. im in fairly good shape and will be even more so after a summer working on the farm.
Heck yeah. Farm work is a killer. Yard-work alone kills me. But if you want a cheap piece of exercise equipment, get an old tire, clean out the black-widows and other vermin and start chuckin' it around. I think I've seen 'em do this in an old dog Bros. tape, and besides, look what it's done for Emilio... who, if reading this... HEY EMILIO! GET THIS... should post his conditioning routines. I think (if he were to keep his silly terminology to himself) that he might get a pretty positive response. As far as being silly goes, I'm quite experienced, so you should all pay attention to what I say.
haha that tire thing might actually be a really good full body work out for me. of course im not sure the proffesors and such would be very impressed with me throwing a tire out of my room on the third story of residence runnning down three flight of stairs, retriving it. running back up three flights of stairs and repeating the process...
needless to say it would build endurance, leg and arm muscles, and a bad reputation!
TigerCraneGuy
Orange Belt
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Fitness and SD... interesting thread.
Just for context, I train Kenpo 5.0, which has us fighting at different ranges from contact to control manipulation. Kick-boxing-type tactics to bridge the gap, Kenpo sequences for in-fighting, various takedowns, and a large amount of groundwork out of BJJ, albeit with the mindset of getting back on our feet ASAP.
With that out of the way, imho, I think some measure of physical fitness is important. One may not be as conditioned as a professional cage fighter, or a 100-man-Kumite Kyokushin stylist, but given that combat is by nature, a relentless and brutal activity, it pays to be prepared for pretty extreme levels of exertion. Just my 2 cents. An opinion, nothing more.
True, the ideal scenario is to get it over and done with in 3-4 seconds, but if that doesn't happen, then what? Say, I've executed a Kenpo SD sequence, and he's still standing, then what? Now he's seen what I can do, and things are going to get more difficult. Now, the fight's on, and to survive, I may have to last more than a minute, or maybe 2... or maybe more than that. Who knows?
Personally, I'd prefer not to take that chance. I want every edge I can get, and if it means being able to outlast the aggressor, so I can take him out of the game, and then have enough gas in the tank to practice my Nike-jitsu, then so be it.
Kind regards,
TCG
Just for context, I train Kenpo 5.0, which has us fighting at different ranges from contact to control manipulation. Kick-boxing-type tactics to bridge the gap, Kenpo sequences for in-fighting, various takedowns, and a large amount of groundwork out of BJJ, albeit with the mindset of getting back on our feet ASAP.
With that out of the way, imho, I think some measure of physical fitness is important. One may not be as conditioned as a professional cage fighter, or a 100-man-Kumite Kyokushin stylist, but given that combat is by nature, a relentless and brutal activity, it pays to be prepared for pretty extreme levels of exertion. Just my 2 cents. An opinion, nothing more.
True, the ideal scenario is to get it over and done with in 3-4 seconds, but if that doesn't happen, then what? Say, I've executed a Kenpo SD sequence, and he's still standing, then what? Now he's seen what I can do, and things are going to get more difficult. Now, the fight's on, and to survive, I may have to last more than a minute, or maybe 2... or maybe more than that. Who knows?
Personally, I'd prefer not to take that chance. I want every edge I can get, and if it means being able to outlast the aggressor, so I can take him out of the game, and then have enough gas in the tank to practice my Nike-jitsu, then so be it.
Kind regards,
TCG
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