physical fitness & self defense.

[Archangel M]

While I agree with your premise, keep in mind that if your 2-3 seconds of technique doesn't work, he's probably not going to just "be standing there". Odds are he will be pounding away on you or the two of you will be rolling around on the floor.

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

Didn't mean standing per se, just 'functional' and pissed off as heck...

Anyway, I agree. What you posit may well eventuate. And if it does go to the ground, then the fitness factor could be even more significant, as grappling-work can get quite strenuous... even where skill and textbook technique are employed.

Which is why we train for it in drills and non-compliant sparring.

TCG

 

[Aikicomp]

Well I don't think you can necessarily assume that you won't be wrestling with someone. If you get tackled well from the side and are unaware you certainly will be wrestling. Sparring is a poor word to use however it is very necessary to learn to strike effectively and if some exchanging of blows is required then it definitely requires some fitness even with technique

I did not say you would not be wrestling, I said you should not spend a lot of time doing it.

When I wrote sparring I was using it in a general sense of the word, I'm sorry you felt it was poor.

Again, I did not say fitness is not required I said it, in my opinion, is less important than technique.

When things such as adrenal dumping come in to play it is not always possible to have perfect balance, timing and technique etc so worst case scenario is there is some scuffling which can take its toll physically.

Isn't that why we train? So that we get our balance, timing and techniques closer and closer to perfection so it takes less of a toll physically.

As for ki and breathing, well that's nice in theory but in a surprise attack or even one that is relatively sudden generating ki is not an option and controlling your breathing to a point of truly increasing your strength (I'm assuming you are referring to ki building type breathing) while performing a physical task is not easy under pressure and regardless of how often you have used ki on students or others in the dojo, using in the street against armed attackers is damn risky.

Really?..... From your above statement your knowledge about the principles, generation and application of Ki is quite limited and incorrect. Actually, we were taught to flow Ki all the time regardless of where you are or what you are doing so we would not be caught unaware and suprised by an attack. Once you learn how to use it you tend to use it all the time ESPECIALLY when stressed and/or under pressure in daily life or a self-defense situation.

I'm picturing you using Aikido type techniques in this scenario such as locks etc and moving.

There are aspects of Aikido in our Ju-Jitsu style and they work quite well when incorporated into our self-defense techniques. Why do you think Aikido techniques are not applicable on the street?

This sort of thing is great in the dojo but if this is all you are doing and your fellow students are attacking then given the nature of the tecniques it is very hard to know how it would relate to the street as these students know how to flow with your techniques and comply in this way hense making them seem easier to perform.

That's why in our style we attack for real with real intent NOT just going thru the motions and complying with the techniques to make them easier.
My teacher saw this in other styles and recognized as a flaw and fixed it to make it more applicable for the street.


Striking/self defense scenarios with some reasonable sort of contact both receiving and giving are necessary to be able to deal with such scenarios and these do require physical fitness

I agree 100%

Practicing technique will NOT develop physical fitness of any real use. Practicing technique will refine the technique. In BJJ learning and practicing the technique won't develop fitness but when you grapple, that is when you develop fitness. With strikes, learning the movements of the strike will not develop fitness, but once you start hitting pads and sparring/doing full on self defense scenarios your fitness will develop.

We have aspects of Judo, Karate, Aikido and Savate in our Ju-Jitsu style and using techniques from all four of those arts combined is a good way to develope physical fitness as well as learn the various movements and techniques contained therein. We then go on to use what we learn to practice street self defense situations based on real attacks and not just going through the motions with unrealistic attacks. So, I don't completely agree with you.

In my opinion it is irresponsible for martial artists to be out of shape. Sure a little bit of weight because of laziness is ok but relying solely on technique and think that you will be fine is silly.

I agree, never said to rely soley on technique. I just said I thought it was more important.

Also if you a a fat lazy smoker then the option of running is totally out of the question which takes away one option before an attack has ever occured.

I agree. That's why if you are, your technique has to be better than your fitness

Cheers
Sam :asian:

You know your repsonse reads like a bash right? I certainly hope it was not because to bash another person or their style has no honor and is a cowardly act, going against what a true Martial Artist is in every sense of the word.

I'm new here and don't know the people on here yet and it's hard to tell from the typed word what the intent was from a post so, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

If I may ask, would you mind telling me your amount of experience and rank, from your post it seems like you study BJJ, is this correct?.

Michael

 

[jarrod]

well the technique vs fitness discussion is interesting & all but the point i was trying to make is keep yourself healthy, even if strength & conditioning isn't a major component of your MA training. often i'll see a MAist who is borderline morbidly obese & wonder what the point of training to defend yourself is when your lifestyle has you headed towards early mortality anyway. the odds of being seriously hurt in a violent attack are astronomically small compared to the probability of succumbing to an unhealthy lifestyle.

like this guy, for instance:

jf

 

[searcher]

jarrod-where on earth did you find that video? I don't want to come right out and bash the guy in it, but how does a MAist let themself get like that? Come on guys, it is not that hard to push away from the table and hit the gym.


"Big, fat, andstupid is no way to go through life son." One of the greatest lines in history, I just wish I could remember where it came from.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

This is just my opinion;
Train your endurance like a marathon runner.

Train your muscles like a bodybuilder.

Increase your flexibility like an Olympic gymnast Yoga guru.

Eat only what the body needs.

Train your Spirit and mind like an ascetic in the mountains.

Practice your martial art techniques as if you are going to die and every technique requires precision.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is just my opinion;
Train your endurance like a marathon runner.

I'll get right on it.

Train your muscles like a bodybuilder.

Check. I want to not be able to scratch the back of my neck.

Increase your flexibility like an Olympic gymnast Yoga guru.

Um, how does that work with the bodybuilder part? I haven't seen a lot of bodybuilding gymnasts. Well, Mary Lou Retton, but uh, ok.

Eat only what the body needs.

My body needs a jelly donut.

Train your Spirit and mind like an ascetic in the mountains.

Not those nasty ascetics on the plains or the evil ascetics in the valleys. The mountain ones are bestest.

Practice your martial art techniques as if you are going to die and every technique requires precision.

Every technique does require precision, and we are all going to die.

Especially if my body keeps needing them jelly donuts.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Actually stretching is a big part of bodybuilting nowadays.

 

[Senjojutsu]

"Big, fat, andstupid is no way to go through life son." One of the greatest lines in history, I just wish I could remember where it came from.

Jon,

Way too easy to answer, Animal House (1978), the actual catch phase is below, that whole movie had great catch phrases:

Dean Wormer to Flounder: Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son.
in that same scene...
Dean Wormer: Daniel Simpson Day... HAS no grade point average. All courses incomplete. Mr. Blu - MR. BLUTARSKY... ZERO POINT ZERO.

Later Scene:
Flounder: I can't believe I threw up in front of Dean Wormer.
Boon: Face it, Kent. You threw up *on* Dean Wormer.

I think Joe Biden studied history at Delta House:
D-Day: War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.
Bluto: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough... [thinks hard]
Bluto: the tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!

 

[searcher]

Thank you Senjojutsu!!!


That is the time when they are all getting suspended.

 

[jarrod]

jarrod-where on earth did you find that video? I don't want to come right out and bash the guy in it, but how does a MAist let themself get like that? Come on guys, it is not that hard to push away from the table and hit the gym.


"Big, fat, andstupid is no way to go through life son." One of the greatest lines in history, I just wish I could remember where it came from.

it was posted on another thread. this is what i'm talking about; you don't have to be as jadecloudalchemist describes (though it is a lofty ideal) martial artists just shouldn't waddle.

jf

 

[thetruth]

You know your repsonse reads like a bash right? I certainly hope it was not because to bash another person or their style has no honor and is a cowardly act, going against what a true Martial Artist is in every sense of the word.

I'm new here and don't know the people on here yet and it's hard to tell from the typed word what the intent was from a post so, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

If I may ask, would you mind telling me your amount of experience and rank, from your post it seems like you study BJJ, is this correct?.

Michael

Wasn't intended as a bash. As for cowardly well thats a matter of opinion as I believe that if someone states their opinion and signs their name then they aren't being cowardly. If I believe something I'll say it and sign my name and give my phone number and address if necessary. As for my experience. I have a 2nd dan in Kempo, I have done American Kenpo for a couple of years, I did Judo for 6 years and have instructor certification in Jim Wagners RBPP. I have recently started BJJ and also do some reality based self defense that incorporates Floro Fighting Systems among other techniques. I did Kempo for 7 years and left because my instructor was a knob. I did triathlons for a few years and as I said have recently gotten back into the arts (I did Jim Wagners course last year).

A for fitness I realise it's choice but I think it's just plain lazy for 99% of regular people to be overweight let alone those who are teaching a method of not only self protection but also exercise. People are just making excuses for their crappy habits. Preach choice but don't even bother preaching anything to do with health until you can get your own in check.

I am sure that being an overweight smoker certainly effects ones ability to perform perfect technique as well as ones ability to generate ki. I'm sure the body has to be in a certain state for ki to circulate properly. I'm sure it isn't just the fitness side being fat effects.

Thats my rant and if you happen to be fat and take it personally well that's up to you.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[thetruth]

That video was hilarious. If a guy with that kind of gravity centre can't keep his balance properly then he's in real strife

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[Glycerine0160]

You know your repsonse reads like a bash right? I certainly hope it was not because to bash another person or their style has no honor and is a cowardly act, going against what a true Martial Artist is in every sense of the word.

I'm new here and don't know the people on here yet and it's hard to tell from the typed word what the intent was from a post so, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

If I may ask, would you mind telling me your amount of experience and rank, from your post it seems like you study BJJ, is this correct?.

Michael

I'm not trying to bash you but I'm just curious if there is anything I am lead amiss on. Breathing to maintain ki I imagine is simliar to yoga breathing, diaphragmic breathing, whatever you want call it. If that is the breathing you are referring to, it is literally impossible to maintain deep, slow breathes when you raise your work output intensity. That is like try sprinting and doing anything but huffing and puffing erratically.The only thing I could think in reference to ki would just be being relaxed and striking by keeping the whole body relaxed (except on the instances you need to tense, like right before the punch, etc) and exhaling as you do so.

If you are referring to the latter, then the critisicm you recieved before about "you could never do this in a surprise situation" then that is a moot point. The only time your body would not be able to do this is if you went into shock and were taking quick, acute bursts of breath. (similiar to what happens what a person engages in a panic attack) How to find out for sure how you would act is watch your behavior.

Before I started martial arts, when I got suddenly frightened by something, I would tighten up and get in "flight" mode. After some months of martial arts training I evovled it into putting up my guard, "fight mode" but I would still be somewhat tense. Now when I get scared, I only instantly tighten up for a about second or less while I put up my guard, then I quickly loosen up and access the situation. How I rationalize this is I am not afraid. I realize, there is hardly any action that I could incur that I would not be able to react to. (with the exception of getting hit from behind) But if a fist comes, my guard is instantaneous. Not to mention, I try to keep in my mind that the best primal reaction to train yourself to do is to back up. In my case, JKD has a move where you lean back on your back foot and you rest your lead foot on their leg therefor putting you just out of range of a punch so you can access the situation, your opponent, and your environment. I only bring this last paragraph up to mention that it is very possible to train/adapt your body to quickly disengage in tightening up which would therefor reengage your traditional breathing owing to the idea your breathing only becomes inefficient when you tighten up, which ultimately reduces the effecitiveness of a an opponent's surprise attack (unless it is from behind where under no conditions could you foresee it)

 

[Aikicomp]

I'm not trying to bash you but I'm just curious if there is anything I am lead amiss on. Breathing to maintain ki I imagine is simliar to yoga breathing, diaphragmic breathing, whatever you want call it.
Yes and no, The Ki I was refering to is when you take the energy from around you and use it to your advantage by channeling it through your body being able to turn it off and on at will. Concentrating on breathing is how you first aquire the stillness to tap into it and eventually learn how to access it all the time.

If that is the breathing you are referring to, it is literally impossible to maintain deep, slow breathes when you raise your work output intensity.

Not slow and deep but, more of a controlled concentration on breathing while doing work.

That is like try sprinting and doing anything but huffing and puffing erratically.The only thing I could think in reference to ki would just be being relaxed and striking by keeping the whole body relaxed (except on the instances you need to tense, like right before the punch, etc) and exhaling as you do so.

That we refer to as focus at impact not Ki. Although some Ki is involved.

If you are referring to the latter, then the critisicm you recieved before about "you could never do this in a surprise situation" then that is a moot point. The only time your body would not be able to do this is if you went into shock and were taking quick, acute bursts of breath. (similiar to what happens what a person engages in a panic attack) How to find out for sure how you would act is watch your behavior.

Before I started martial arts, when I got suddenly frightened by something, I would tighten up and get in "flight" mode. After some months of martial arts training I evovled it into putting up my guard, "fight mode" but I would still be somewhat tense. Now when I get scared, I only instantly tighten up for a about second or less while I put up my guard, then I quickly loosen up and access the situation. How I rationalize this is I am not afraid. I realize, there is hardly any action that I could incur that I would not be able to react to. (with the exception of getting hit from behind) But if a fist comes, my guard is instantaneous. Not to mention, I try to keep in my mind that the best primal reaction to train yourself to do is to back up. In my case, JKD has a move where you lean back on your back foot and you rest your lead foot on their leg therefor putting you just out of range of a punch so you can access the situation, your opponent, and your environment. I only bring this last paragraph up to mention that it is very possible to train/adapt your body to quickly disengage in tightening up which would therefor reengage your traditional breathing owing to the idea your breathing only becomes inefficient when you tighten up, which ultimately reduces the effecitiveness of a an opponent's surprise attack (unless it is from behind where under no conditions could you foresee it)

I hope this explains it a little bit better, as it is something that has to be experienced or felt or applied to truly understand it. To try to explain it fully, is well, difficult.

Michael

 

[thetruth]

But if a fist comes, my guard is instantaneous. Not to mention, I try to keep in my mind that the best primal reaction to train yourself to do is to back up. In my case, JKD has a move where you lean back on your back foot and you rest your lead foot on their leg therefor putting you just out of range of a punch so you can access the situation, your opponent, and your environment. I only bring this last paragraph up to mention that it is very possible to train/adapt your body to quickly disengage in tightening up which would therefor reengage your traditional breathing owing to the idea your breathing only becomes inefficient when you tighten up, which ultimately reduces the effecitiveness of a an opponent's surprise attack (unless it is from behind where under no conditions could you foresee it)

This however is not the case when you are surprised. Your flinch will be instantaneous which you cannot control and is inbuilt. It's just your actions after the flinch that you can control and how quickly they come out.

I'm not sure if you are referring to a surprise attack in the first bit but I'm assuming you are.

Cheers
Sam

 

[Glycerine0160]

I hope this explains it a little bit better, as it is something that has to be experienced or felt or applied to truly understand it. To try to explain it fully, is well, difficult.

Michael

Hmm I'm not familiar. I won't say I have never recognized someone say it before, but I don't understand. Is KI a complete spirtual basis? Is there actual any way you can scientifically explain it through anatomy? What exactly is hidden energy like KI? I have recently been explained something similiar but does not seem to fit the picture you are painting. I have been told if you practice techniques while keeping your muscles tight and focusing in on diaphragmic breathing, you build up muscle fibers to make it almost like "inner strength" while performing these techniques which to me translate to building up type 2 muscle fibers which is really just endurance/strength muscle.

 

[Aikicomp]

Hmm I'm not familiar. I won't say I have never recognized someone say it before, but I don't understand. Is KI a complete spirtual basis?

Not spiritual, I would explain it as more of a mental kind of thing.

Is there actual any way you can scientifically explain it through anatomy?

Wow..I never tried. The easiest way I can try to explain it is basically, its Mind over Matter.

What exactly is hidden energy like KI?

OK, There is energy all around us, universal energy if you will, and we teach certain Ki exercises with mental imaging, breath control, mental focus and control to access that energy and use it in every day life as well as in Ju-Jitsu techniques. Once you learn how to harness Ki you can use it to you advantage ie: my teacher would wear a sport jacket in the dead of winter. He could "push" the cold away from his body with Ki. You can walk with Ki, work with Ki, throw with Ki, punch and kick with Ki, ect.
Chinese call it Chi..Japanese call it Ki. Aikidoka are taught to harness and use it in their Aikido techniques. Our style of Ju-Jitsu uses Aikido techniques and principles (as well as Karate, Judo and Savate) so, that's probably where my teacher picked it up. Eventually, after you learn the basic exercises, you learn to "flow" it all the time no matter what you are doing and at times, actually have to concentrate to "turn it off" and revert back to using physical stregnth.

I have recently been explained something similiar but does not seem to fit the picture you are painting. I have been told if you practice techniques while keeping your muscles tight and focusing in on diaphragmic breathing, you build up muscle fibers to make it almost like "inner strength" while performing these techniques which to me translate to building up type 2 muscle fibers which is really just endurance/strength muscle.

I was on my way out the door when I responded yesterday and did not have time for a more detailed explanation, like I said it's hard to explain it without actually feeling the effects of it. So I hope what I wrote (as inadequet as it was) was enough for you to at least have some idea of what it's all about. There are many books about it and resources available for you to delve into.

A funny story, when I first learned one exercise (where two people can not lift you up off the ground) I bet my father and his friend $20.00 that they could not lift me up. My Dad was 6'1 225 his friend 6' 200 and little old me 5'8 150......needless to say I won the $20, but, gave it back cause they never had a chance anyway.

Michael

 

[Glycerine0160]

I was on my way out the door when I responded yesterday and did not have time for a more detailed explanation, like I said it's hard to explain it without actually feeling the effects of it. So I hope what I wrote (as inadequet as it was) was enough for you to at least have some idea of what it's all about. There are many books about it and resources available for you to delve into.

A funny story, when I first learned one exercise (where two people can not lift you up off the ground) I bet my father and his friend $20.00 that they could not lift me up. My Dad was 6'1 225 his friend 6' 200 and little old me 5'8 150......needless to say I won the $20, but, gave it back cause they never had a chance anyway.

Michael

I'm not very religious. I don't think I ever will be in terms of existentialism. Spirtuality? I suppose I'm open to the suggestion but that still leads one to the argument of who controls this energy? I have heard people say people like Einstein knew about it. I have nothing against religion in terms of value though, like I would be open to Buddhism or something that as a way of life, but I just personally would never subscribe to anything "humans" think they discovered cause I would assume they made it. Which is the forefront of why I could take in a way of living and conduct, just never a belief of higher power, not on that is concerened with just humans. I will stop there cause I wanted to try to walk around this cause the religion can cause unncessary discussion.

Regardless, I believe you that ki has helped you. I don't doubt that. I'm a philospher in my mind, I analyze and think too much. I am not just someone who "accepts" a concept without knowing why. Hence why religion and even math (although math always has a reason why, I'm the type of person that needs to know that why and becomes severely befuddled until I figure it out, which in actuality, might not be necessary)

Where I am going with this is, I would be very interested in taking in this concept of ki. Bruce Lee spoke of it I believe. I always wanted to know more of it but no one in my classes discuss it. Almost like it never exists.



But most importantly. I was just dicussing on my fitness forum about muscle fibers. They told me only the best athletes can recruit 70% of muscle fibers. The other 30% is reserved for survial situations, like a murder breaks into your home. I'm just curious, I wonder if this energy is really just the ability to acquire the muscle fibers in a more controlled motion? I am not trying to say Ki energy doesn't float around, but I'm just wondering if taking in such a belief can be avoided? Perhaps this could give an anatomical reasoning?

My psychology professor told me things about spinning dervishes who are monks who can spin around for a period of time and stop and can take a piercing wound from a weapon and not even feel it or flinch from it. He also told me of his mother who had poor circulation and it took her a long time of trial error and almost giving up until she was able to control her heart. Her heart would speed up due to this poor circulatory condition and the specialist told her its possible to control your heart at times (which is a involuntary fuction) She eventually did learn it and lived way past her time with someone wtih that condition)

I know this is all very philosophical and I tend to analyze things like this...
I'm not sure what you think my attitude is cause it might be misinterpreted..but to summarize

1. ) I am very interested in this ki energy. (I actually have a filipino secondary instructor that did speak of this energy and was roman catholic and switched over to buddhism. He said since that transition, his martial arts went to higher levels.) I could speak to him.

2.) Is it necessary to believe in some outside force and to what extent? You dont' seem to have taken into Buddhism but you believe in ki.

Take your time reposting or send me a personal message. It is possible you just know how it works and not the whole wordly aspect of it. But enlighten me of what it is you do know.

 

[thetruth]

OK, There is energy all around us, universal energy if you will, and we teach certain Ki exercises with mental imaging, breath control, mental focus and control to access that energy and use it in every day life as well as in Ju-Jitsu techniques. Once you learn how to harness Ki you can use it to you advantage ie: my teacher would wear a sport jacket in the dead of winter. He could "push" the cold away from his body with Ki. You can walk with Ki, work with Ki, throw with Ki, punch and kick with Ki, ect.
Chinese call it Chi..Japanese call it Ki. Aikidoka are taught to harness and use it in their Aikido techniques. Our style of Ju-Jitsu uses Aikido techniques and principles (as well as Karate, Judo and Savate) so, that's probably where my teacher picked it up. Eventually, after you learn the basic exercises, you learn to "flow" it all the time no matter what you are doing and at times, actually have to concentrate to "turn it off" and revert back to using physical stregnth.

I seriously doubt that he pushed the cold away, perhaps warmed his body a touch and caused a bit of steaming. Also I will add one thing. There is a book out there called 'Angry White Pyjamas' by a guy who went and did the Yoshinkan Aikido's police riot course. During his time there the founder Gozo Shioda passed away. After the funeral a large group of high ranking students (well into the dan levels) went out for the wake and got into a fight. No Aikido came out, it was a messy punch on. Now I'm not saying it ever would but it certainly made me doubt that any KI could be developed on the spot to use in a fight. Also it isn't something you can use in a fight from the beginning, it takes many years in an art form such as aikido to get the techniques to a point where they are effortless and just flow with or without the use of ki.
Cheers
Sam:asian: