Parker Letter on Tracy's Site

[Danjo]

This is mainly for Doc Chapel, but obviously anyone is welcome to respond.

I just read the letter from GM Parker on GM Tracy's website regarding his time training with Mitose. He says that he exchanged a great deal of martial art knowledge over many years. I was under the impression taht he had only a passing aquaintance with Mitose and that the martial arts information consisted of a weak deo of a foot punch.

Please help me understand this in context.

 

[John Bishop]

This is mainly for Doc Chapel, but obviously anyone is welcome to respond.

I just read the letter from GM Parker on GM Tracy's website regarding his time training with Mitose. He says that he exchanged a great deal of martial art knowledge over many years. I was under the impression taht he had only a passing aquaintance with Mitose and that the martial arts information consisted of a weak deo of a foot punch.

Please help me understand this in context.

Mr. Parker told me that he had known Mitose since he (Parker) was 16 years old. When Parker trained with Chow at the Nuuanu YMCA, it was still a branch school of Mitose's, so it's very possible Mitose visited often, or at least occassionally.
The thing Mr. Parker was emphatic about, was even though he knew Mitose, and probably witnessed and or participated in workouts with him, he was never directly a student of Mitose's.

 

[Ray]

If you're referring to the letter of reply that Mr. Parker sent to Mr. Hensel, it never says that Mr. Parker trained with Mitose; only that they shared "martial arts knowledge."

For me, an interesting aside, is that the document titled "shedding light on Mr. Parker's Letter" following the letter. It mentions Mr. Dale "Petite" which, I'm sure is a mis-spelling of Pettit. Mr. Pettit was my first and primary instructor.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Why is the Tracy's camp so hung up on lineage? If what you are doing works, who cares where it came from.

 

[The Kai]

Sounds bad
It is a sttempt to re write history , for thier own ends

 

[hongkongfooey]

It does seem that Ed Parker is being written right out of their history. Sad really. Mr. Parker was man who gave them the majority of their Kenpo knowledge.

 

[Doc]

This is mainly for Doc Chapel, but obviously anyone is welcome to respond.

I just read the letter from GM Parker on GM Tracy's website regarding his time training with Mitose. He says that he exchanged a great deal of martial art knowledge over many years. I was under the impression taht he had only a passing aquaintance with Mitose and that the martial arts information consisted of a weak deo of a foot punch.

Please help me understand this in context.

Take it for what it's worth sir. The Tracy's have a history of this demeaning of Ed Parker and 'rearranging' of their own history to put themselves in the Mitose Lineage. They even publicly 'explained' how they 'promoted' one of Mitose's students, who then in turn, promoted them to put themselves in Mitose's Lineage in an old brochure. Anyone who performs such "lineage gymnastics" has some serious issues.

Ed Parker has on numerous occasions in print, and also stated publicly, "Mitose showed me nothing." emphasing that Mitose was never his teacher, and was basically a "Con man" who duped people out of money and wrangled 'prestige' and used the money to 'control' people and circumstances to continue to enhance his 'prestige' and continue his cons. Chow wasn't very educated and Mitose was considered the 'brains' and Professor Chow the 'muscle' who Mitose manipulated and reaped the financial benefits.

It's pretty clear and publicly documented that Mitose was indeed a criminal. The only argument that remained is whether he was a credible martial artist. My teacher said he wasn't. What I saw of him the one time verified Ed Parker's statements of Mitose in both areas.

It is also very well documented and common knowledge Professor Chow was a fighter, and his reputation was inherent in his local nickname, "Thunderbolt," while his lack of education and business acumen was equally common knowledge. These things speak for themselves and it is clear that Chow didn't 'con' Mitose nor did Chow seem to think much of Mitose as a martial artist.

Why they, (Tracy's) continue to do this is anyone's guess. Al has always been very successful with or without Ed Parker, so I have never understood the point, especially in 2006. He (they) left Parker almost 40 years ago, and Parker has been deceased for 15 years.

 

[hongkongfooey]

You nailed it, Doc. Everything I read on the Tracy's site makes me scratch my head. Especially when they claim to be the only people who know what really happened in the early Kenpo days. I have no doubt that Al Tracy has a lot of knowledge of Kenpo, and the art that he teaches is effective. But, I just can't understand all of the effort put into aligning themselves with a con man and a criminal.I feel that if being in Mitose's lineage is so important, then stop teaching the Kenpo that Ed Parker taught and start teaching Kosho Ryu.

Just my opinion Tracyites, don't get too upset with me.

 

[Doc]

You nailed it, Doc. Everything I read on the Tracy's site makes me scratch my head. Especially when they claim to be the only people who know what really happened in the early Kenpo days. I have no doubt that Al Tracy has a lot of knowledge of Kenpo, and the art that he teaches is effective. But, I just can't understand all of the effort put into aligning themselves with a con man and a criminal.I feel that if being in Mitose's lineage is so important, then stop teaching the Kenpo that Ed Parker taught and start teaching Kosho Ryu.

Just my opinion Tracyites, don't get too upset with me.

I shoulda said that.

 

[Carol]

The website of a MA school/system has one primary purpose: money. Revenue generation. To get the potential student through the door, then closing them on an agreement. The Tracy brothers are known for their furious differences with SGM Parker. They are also known for having a business model.

This is how Tracy Kenpo is not EPAK. The sites gave me the impression that every possible delineation between the Tracy brothers and Mr. Parker has been exploited for the sake of market positioning. Distinguishing themselves in order to sell themselves to potential students.

Perhaps old habits die hard. If the Tracy brothers have been patterning themselves in this fashion for almost 40 years, it may be the only way they know to promote themselves. They wouldn't be the first businessmen to fall in to such habits.

I highly respect their art and the good folks that teach and practice Tracy Kenpo. I just disagree with the way the brothers promote their schools.

 

[Danjo]

Take it for what it's worth sir. The Tracy's have a history of this demeaning of Ed Parker and 'rearranging' of their own history to put themselves in the Mitose Lineage. They even publicly 'explained' how they 'promoted' one of Mitose's students, who then in turn, promoted them to put themselves in Mitose's Lineage in an old brochure. Anyone who performs such "lineage gymnastics" has some serious issues.

Ed Parker has on numerous occasions in print, and also stated publicly, "Mitose showed me nothing." emphasing that Mitose was never his teacher, and was basically a "Con man" who duped people out of money and wrangled 'prestige' and used the money to 'control' people and circumstances to continue to enhance his 'prestige' and continue his cons. Chow wasn't very educated and Mitose was considered the 'brains' and Professor Chow the 'muscle' who Mitose manipulated and reaped the financial benefits.

It's pretty clear and publicly documented that Mitose was indeed a criminal. The only argument that remained is whether he was a credible martial artist. My teacher said he wasn't. What I saw of him the one time verified Ed Parker's statements of Mitose in both areas.

It is also very well documented and common knowledge Professor Chow was a fighter, and his reputation was inherent in his local nickname, "Thunderbolt," while his lack of education and business acumen was equally common knowledge. These things speak for themselves and it is clear that Chow didn't 'con' Mitose nor did Chow seem to think much of Mitose as a martial artist.

Why they, (Tracy's) continue to do this is anyone's guess. Al has always been very successful with or without Ed Parker, so I have never understood the point, especially in 2006. He (they) left Parker almost 40 years ago, and Parker has been deceased for 15 years.

Thanks Doc,

Mainly I was curious about the Martial arts knowledge that Parker would have been exchanging back and forth with Mitose over the years according to that letter. Could the phrase, "He showed me nothing." have meant that what Mitose showed Parker was worthless to him, being rudimentary or silly, rather than non-existant?

 

[Gentle Fist]

Quick question for Doc and the floor...

Where did the Tracy's get their syllabus material for after Sandan?

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Al Tracy only get up to Sandan with Parker? If that is correct, then where did he get material to fill in 4th and 5th?

And 600 techs???? I have trouble mastering just a few? I thought the point of Kenpo was to build reaction not repetition...

Any thoughts?

 

[Flying Crane]

Quick question for Doc and the floor...

Where did the Tracy's get their syllabus material for after Sandan?

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Al Tracy only get up to Sandan with Parker? If that is correct, then where did he get material to fill in 4th and 5th?

And 600 techs???? I have trouble mastering just a few? I thought the point of Kenpo was to build reaction not repetition...

Any thoughts?

From what I understand from how the Tracy's explain things on their website, they learned all the material from Mr. Parker, but it was not in any particular order as a syllabus at that time. I think that for their own system, they created their own syllabus and divided the material into the ranks as they saw fit.

As far as what rankings they received from Mr. Parker or others, I don't know and cannot comment with any authority.

As far as 600 techniques, the real number is about 341, yellow belt to 4th black. Many techniques have several variations (often the variations are very minor differences, in my opinion they often don't warrent inclusion). Fifth black has a syllabus of 41 techniques, but all but about two of them are just additional variations on earlier techniques, so I don't like to count those as part of the whole. The number 600 comes from the total number of techniques, plus all the variations.

However you count them, I am in agreement that there are too many. In my opinion, many of them are very similar to each other and don't need to be included because they don't really add anything new. Other techniques are unrealistic and in my opinion should not be included. I personally have modified the curriculum pretty severely for my own use, to try and resolve these issues as best as I was able.

 

[Doc]

Thanks Doc,

Mainly I was curious about the Martial arts knowledge that Parker would have been exchanging back and forth with Mitose over the years according to that letter. Could the phrase, "He showed me nothing." have meant that what Mitose showed Parker was worthless to him, being rudimentary or silly, rather than non-existant?

Actually you are not the first sir to interpret that quote with a possible double meaning. It is an exact quote that he went on to clarify adamantly with "Mitose was never ever my teacher."

To put things in perspective, no one who claimed to be a student of Chow (according to Ed Parker), ever claimed Mitose as a teacher as well. Those later who identified Mitose as "their teacher," were never students of Professor Chow.

 

[Danjo]

Actually you are not the first sir to interpret that quote with a possible double meaning. It is an exact quote that he went on to clarify adamantly with "Mitose was never ever my teacher."

To put things in perspective, no one who claimed to be a student of Chow (according to Ed Parker), ever claimed Mitose as a teacher as well. Those later who identified Mitose as "their teacher," were never students of Professor Chow.

Thanks Doc,

As always, it's been enlightening.

 

[Dave Simmons]

Doc,

Here we go again with all the he said, you said...

Most of those who frequent this forum have no idea what happened back in the day. I was there, as you know, and most who post on these forums do not know the issues. The facts are being ditorted with time.

 

[Flying Crane]

Doc,

Here we go again with all the he said, you said...

Most of those who frequent this forum have no idea what happened back in the day. I was there, as you know, and most who post on these forums do not know the issues. The facts are being ditorted with time.

If you feel that anything said in this thread has been distorted, please clarify. I for one would love to hear another perspective, from someone who was around in the early days.

 

[Doc]

Doc,

Here we go again with all the he said, you said...

Most of those who frequent this forum have no idea what happened back in the day. I was there, as you know, and most who post on these forums do not know the issues. The facts are being ditorted with time.

I agree completely sir. The thing that makes it truly difficult is the disagreement from among those who were there, who for various reasons were given different perspectives, and/or perceived things differently. In these matters we should let them speak for themselves, and make the most of what we have now. Time is short and everyone's lease is running out.

I've always expressed puzzlement at some of the things that occurred in both camps. I always considered the Tracy's to be the most successful business wise and, in part credited them with the inspiration for Parker to attempt the same. It's the 'after the game is over' re-telling that's weird sir. I spend too much time trying to get my own stuff right to really worry about it.