Parker or Lee

Bode

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Doc is doing seminars in England right now otherwise I am sure he would have something to say. I have never heard Doc tell a story where Parker was either A) a racist B) one who would promote himself. Believe me I have heard the stories about Parker straight from Doc. While some would believe Doc didn't learn from Parker I find this laughable. All you have to do is take a look at who promoted Ed Parker Jr (Jr only used for clarification) to black belt.

In terms of credibility. Everyone has their own interpretation of events. Some claim Mitose was a genius. Some claim Chow didn't promote EP to black (as the article claims) With all the constant bickering amongst Martial Artists it's no wonder there is so much inacurate information.

Peronally, I don't subscribe to the "who promoted who" and "what rank are you" attitude. The evidence of the teacher is in the students. When you see an entire classroom and the orange belts move as good as the black belts, then you have a problem.

Who really cares where the information comes from? EP was a genius at codifying and describing the martial arts. We stand on his shoulders. On the foundations he built for HOW to THINK about the arts. Others continued with the foundations that EP created. Give credit where credit is due, but look to the students for evidence of a teachers skill. Graduating from Harvard does not mean you will perform well in your job area. It is a discriminator and should be given it's proper respect, but it is not, and never should be, the final word.

Credit is mainly due for Chow and Ark Wong, who both taught EP. If other people are on the list, so be it, but we shouldn't get caught up in the, "Well so and so showed him this little wrist flippy thing, so give him credit."

So was it Parker or Lee?
Who cares... my teacher learned from Parker and I believe his students are evidence enough of his skill.
Not trying to kill a thread, but this debate has been going on forever.
 

Dark Kenpo Lord

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Bode said:
While some would believe Doc didn't learn from Parker I find this laughable. All you have to do is take a look at who promoted Ed Parker Jr (Jr only used for clarification) to black belt.
Now that is laughable. Ed Jr. is not a premier representation of an American Kenpo Black Belt by any stretch of the imagination. If that's your evidence I'd suggest you find another example.


DarK LorD
 

Toasty

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"Credit is mainly due for Chow and Ark Wong, who both taught EP. If other people are on the list, so be it, but we shouldn't get caught up in the, "Well so and so showed him this little wrist flippy thing, so give him credit"





Ark Wong?
Don't you mean James Wing Woo?

Didn't most of the American Kenpo forms (sets) come from Mr. Woo?
 
R

rmcrobertson

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Ark Y. Wong taught one of the few traditional Chinese classes open to everybody during the 1950s and 1960s, in LA's Chinatown, and Mr. Parker apparently was pretty well acquainted. Mr. Woo did a lot of the forms, up through Long 2, but remained a general influence after that. Apparently, a lot of the set and form material is either rewritings of traditional stuff, or the concepts of assorted black belts in kenpo, reworked by the man himself.
 

kenposikh

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Dark Kenpo Lord said:
Now that is laughable. Ed Jr. is not a premier representation of an American Kenpo Black Belt by any stretch of the imagination. If that's your evidence I'd suggest you find another example.


DarK LorD


Sir,

can you explain what you mean by this statement, what makes someone a premier representation of a black belt the knowledge or the ability to teach and explain and pass on information.

Let me qualify take a person who has trained in or been around the arts for 40 years and then has an unfortuneate accident so that they are confined to a wheelchair. Do we take their blackbelt away cos they can't do anymore...

No offence just wondering
 

Bode

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Now that is laughable. Ed Jr. is not a premier representation of an American Kenpo Black Belt by any stretch of the imagination. If that's your evidence I'd suggest you find another example.
My statement was not intended to use EP Jr as a "premier representation" of American Kenpo. It was only an attempt to connect one person to another. Chapel to EP Jr. I think it pretty well establishes that EP and Chapel at least knew each other. I find it unlikely EP Jr would have received his black belt from someone who didn't know his father.
The skill of EP Jr are another topic. I have personally never seen him move so I cannot comment. Clear?

Mr. Woo did a lot of the forms, up through Long 2, but remained a general influence after that. -rmrobertson
Thanks for the addition. One more major EP influence.
Back on subject... Bruce or EP?
If EP did learn something from Bruce, surely it wasn't enough to claim him as a major influence. Ark Wong, Chow, and Woo... that probably rounds out the bunch.
 

Ray

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Bode said:
Doc is doing seminars in England right now otherwise I am sure he would have something to say. I have never heard Doc tell a story where Parker was either A) a racist B) one who would promote himself.
The assertion in the link in post 59 that, because Parker was LDS (Mormon), he was also a racist is a false statement (it doesn't logically follow). I didn't know Parker, so I can't say whether he was or wasn't; if he was it wasn't the church's fault.

(Again in ref to the link in post 59) As far as EPAK containing all sorts of LDS Temple "signs and tokens," it is also false. Twenty years of kenpo did nothing to prepare me for any visits to the temple (I converted in 2000). And I learned Kenpo in Salt Lake, from a Mormon who knew Parker (and who, at least, hosted some of Parker's seminars--he split off from the IKKA in 1985).
 

Goldendragon7

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Ray said:
The assertion in the link in post 59 that, because Parker was LDS (Mormon), he was also a racist is a false statement! and..... as far as EPAK containing all sorts of LDS Temple "signs and tokens," it is also false!
I agree with Ray....

Once and for all...... this type of nonsense is pure....
:bs:

I am catholic and even tho we disagreed on theological issues at times ..... in all the years I was with him there were never any racial issues or religious issues forced upon me. If there were "little tokens or signs" of anything that could be applicable to training..... they were generic for anyone to use as examples, no matter what the religious beliefs!

(I am so tired of hearing this type of discussion....) sigh

:asian:
 

Doc

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Dark Kenpo Lord said:
Now that is laughable. Ed Jr. is not a premier representation of an American Kenpo Black Belt by any stretch of the imagination. If that's your evidence I'd suggest you find another example.
DarK LorD
Typical of you you to chime in and take shots because someone's name is mentioned. I suggest you look like crap by my standards. I know its my opinion, just like you have one. Now what has been established? Nothing. I think if you have something negative to say about Edmund you call him up, instead of making such comments on a thread not even about him. It's almost as if you lie in wait for an opprotunity to always have something negative to say. Its getting old.
 

Doc

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Toasty said:
"Credit is mainly due for Chow and Ark Wong, who both taught EP. If other people are on the list, so be it, but we shouldn't get caught up in the, "Well so and so showed him this little wrist flippy thing, so give him credit"





Ark Wong?
Don't you mean James Wing Woo?

Didn't most of the American Kenpo forms (sets) come from Mr. Woo?
No, he meant and said, Ark Wong.
 

Doc

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Goldendragon7 said:
I agree with Ray....

Once and for all...... this type of nonsense is pure....
:bs:

I am catholic and even tho we disagreed on theological issues at times ..... in all the years I was with him there were never any racial issues or religious issues forced upon me. If there were "little tokens or signs" of anything that could be applicable to training..... they were generic for anyone to use as examples, no matter what the religious beliefs!

(I am so tired of hearing this type of discussion....) sigh

:asian:
Agreed. As one of Ed Parker's Black Belts who had a close relationship with him from 1963 to 1990 when he passed, He NEVER attempted to force or preach his religious convictions on anyone to my knowledge. And the racial crap is laughable to me as a Black Man who knew him well.
 

Doc

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rmcrobertson said:
Ark Y. Wong taught one of the few traditional Chinese classes open to everybody during the 1950s and 1960s, in LA's Chinatown, and Mr. Parker apparently was pretty well acquainted. Mr. Woo did a lot of the forms, up through Long 2, but remained a general influence after that. Apparently, a lot of the set and form material is either rewritings of traditional stuff, or the concepts of assorted black belts in kenpo, reworked by the man himself.
Awesomely accurate statement.
 

BruceCalkins

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bushi jon said:
If I am not mistaken it was Ed Parker that gave BL his irst big break in the Movies. I remember Ep had a production company at the time and he turned Bl over to the producers of the Green Hornet and several smaller roles.I could be wrong though
Greeting Jon: Althoguh Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a stong bond in the early 60s and both shared knowledge with each other. Bruce Lee was a Major Movy Star before he came to Americe just not in the US. He had been working with Movies from age 6, His father was an actor. Bruce Lee also trained in Koon Long and Shaolin Kung-fu long before he trained in Wing Chun. He just Counts Yip Man and his favorite teacher because these trainings were the foundation to his JKD. BL also trained in Thai Fighting and even got his golden gloves in american boxing. Before the Internationals where BL demoed his JKD and his 1 inch punch EP had not met him. Their friendship built from there. I have several Books on BL that mention EP as a friend and influance as his art evolved through the years. JKD never stopped evolving right up to Lee's Death.
 

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SokeCalkins said:
Greeting Jon: Althoguh Ed Parker and Bruce Lee made a stong bond in the early 60s and both shared knowledge with each other. Bruce Lee was a Major Movy Star before he came to Americe just not in the US. He had been working with Movies from age 6, His father was an actor. Bruce Lee also trained in Koon Long and Shaolin Kung-fu long before he trained in Wing Chun. He just Counts Yip Man and his favorite teacher because these trainings were the foundation to his JKD. BL also trained in Thai Fighting and even got his golden gloves in american boxing. Before the Internationals where BL demoed his JKD and his 1 inch punch EP had not met him. Their friendship built from there. I have several Books on BL that mention EP as a friend and influance as his art evolved through the years. JKD never stopped evolving right up to Lee's Death.
Bruce was not a major star in the Hong Kong cinema, but he was a child actor doing bit roles, and reading books is indeed one way to get information not always factual. As far as how long he trained in Wing Chun, I was surprised no one asked me where I got my information from. Simple, that's what Bruce said, and I believed him.
 

BruceCalkins

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Doc said:
Bruce was not a major star in the Hong Kong cinema, but he was a child actor doing bit roles, .
No disrespect intended but.
Yes he was a Child actor doing bit roles until he was about 14 then he had larger roles and even a few where he was a major (If not Lead) player. Lee had over 50 movies under his belt before he ever did an american film. And his Martial Arts training started from his father at an early age his father was a Kung-Fu Artist and studied Wu Shu and Shaolin Kung-Fu. And he started Wing Chun at age 13
 

The Kai

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Part of the Bruce Lee mythology

Actually WU Shu was not an art till the 80's
 

Toasty

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Doc said:
No, he meant and said, Ark Wong.



Yeah, thanks there Doc... I knew what he said, thats why I asked.

So, what influence did Ark Wong have on Ed Parker as opposed to James Wing Woo?
 

hardheadjarhead

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SokeCalkins said:
It was not a Sport. Until 1980s. Wu Shu was used by the Chinese Actors in Kabuki for many years before 1980

Sorry, but you're very, very wrong.

Kabuki is classical Japanese theater, not Chinese. Wu Shu has never, I repeat NEVER been used in Kabuki theater in any form at any time.


Regards,


Steve
 

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SokeCalkins said:
BL also trained in Thai Fighting

Sir,

Where did you get this info? it's the first time i hear this. Who was his teacher?The book where you got the info?

Before the Internationals where BL demoed his JKD and his 1 inch punch EP had not met him. .

Actually Ed Parker met Bruce Lee through James Y.Lee before the Internationals.

Respectfully,

Jagdish
 
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