Organizations... I don't get it

[Xue Sheng]

OK likely a stupid question :idunno:

I have been lurking around sections of MT of late that are outside of my area, which is CMA, and I don’t quite get it.

Maybe it is my background in Traditional CMA that is talking but I just don’t get the importance of an organization that oversees various arts since it does appear that many of those organizations don’t agree about the same art they are attempting to oversee, and some or many of ts memebers do not agree with it.

What am I missing here that will make this make sense to me?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Large organizations are popular from an administrative perspective because they give a small number of people direct control of the direction of an art practiced by many internationally. The benefit is that it makes it harder for frauds to lay legitimate claim to the art.

The benefit for practitioners is some level rank portability, knowledge that their cert is 'legit' and for those arts with a competitive aspect, large organizations provide a tournament circuit of some kind. Often large organizations have a vast repository of knowledge due to the larger number of people and possibly smaller organizations that have been integrated into the organization.

The drawback is that large organizations often become mired in politics, stifle innovation, and in some cases, cause the focus of the art to be lost or changed entirely. They can also be influenced by nationalism if they are tied specifically to one country, which can lead to the promulgation of false histories and such in order to bolster national pride.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I don't really get them either. I study and teach goju-ryu karate and aikido, two arts that do frequently have organizations within them to furnish fellowship and learning opportunities and (inevitably) rank as well.

Proponents of orgs frequently say that membership makes their rank portable if they move and it also standardizes technique across the board. Well, I have noticed that even with regard to teachers who were fellow classmates of my own teachers that some variation creep in over the years, so any efforts to standardize have fallen somewhat short. And the rank issue is frankly irrelevant to me.

Where orgs can be valuable are with regard to any seminar or training opportunities that they offer. I am a Aikikai dan holder and a United States Aikido Federation member. Every week, I get an email about some seminar with some noted aikido-ka somewhere. Having been to my share of these, the level of insight picked up in them can be hit and miss, but on the balance I think they have been worthwhile.

 

[Big Don]

Martial arts, to me, is an individual endeavor, yes, I may have made a lot of friends along the way, but, my success or failure is not dependent on them in any way.

 

[Flying Crane]

Xue, you need to bow to somebody, even if it's a big organization. The more corporate, the better. It's time you understood this.

We've all given you a long leash to roam about on and we've allowed you to do your own thing. But now you are questioning the Powers That Be. This is not allowable.

It is time that you learn to grovel.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue, you need to bow to somebody, even if it's a big organization. The more corporate, the better. It's time you understood this.

We've all given you a long leash to roam about on and we've allowed you to do your own thing. But now you are questioning the Powers That Be. This is not allowable.

It is time that you learn to grovel.

:bow:

Enough groveling, let's fight!

(Anytime any place anywhere I get to use a Kung Fu Panda Quote or a bastardization of a Kung Fu Panda quote...I WILL do it )

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I am not a fan of large organizations though I have been in and around many of them. My biggest complaint is the stifleing of creativity. Being a naturally creative person and someone not prone to blindly follow an organizational hierchy they usually do not work for me. The ones that are good in my opinion are ones where any practitioner has full access to the person in charge and that person goes out of there way to make it work. (I know a few like that) I have also found that this latter aspect when used in the business world goes a long way as well!

 

[teekin]

Well as usual someone has to step up to the plate and organise those things that the public wants done, a need met or Adgenda fullfilled. Thus a bunch of like minded people get together and form an Organisation to make these events happen. Then they create rules, pick a direction, cultivate membership and there you go.
But as human's we often have an adgenda we want pushed. Those who run the organisation will make sure their adgenda is being promoted. However you can't please all the people all the time so Politics happens. And the silliness begins. Having run a few decent size organisations ( Dressage Winnipeg was the Lori and Judy show for about 5 years. We did what we wanted, period. ) I can tell you that there is allways politics.

Lori

 

[Steve]

Organizations aren't all bad. Organizations can help prevent people from getting ripped off by a weird dude with no credentials. They can organize tournaments and give people who travel or have to move access to a program similar to the one they left or a place to train while they're away from home.

Organizations can standardize curriculum that help guarantee consistent training experiences.

Certainly, they can do damage to a style, but they can also be good, too. The IBJJF has been good for BJJ overall. They've spread the style, provide standards for safe tournaments under a relatively consistent ruleset, and are generally a positive influence.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Organizations aren't all bad. Organizations can help prevent people from getting ripped off by a weird dude with no credentials. They can organize tournaments and give people who travel or have to move access to a program similar to the one they left or a place to train while they're away from home.

Organizations can standardize curriculum that help guarantee consistent training experiences.

Certainly, they can do damage to a style, but they can also be good, too. The IBJJF has been good for BJJ overall. They've spread the style, provide standards for safe tournaments under a relatively consistent ruleset, and are generally a positive influence.

Absolutely! However, look at the BJJ world in general and look hard and you will see the big business it has become. When I started training in BJJ there were no white belt stripes, no tests you just rolled at a seminar and if your instructor had recommended you then you were promoted. Usually it was two, three years or more. Now in recent years I have had blue belts show up at my schools with around a year in training and their technique well it was pretty poor compared to previous years. Plus there was no thing as a kid's jiujitsu class. Now a days in several bjj schools I have been to recently they reminded me more of a McDojo or they were heading down that path. Mind you not all places are like this but they are becoming more frequent. So organizatioin can be good but.... it can also have some negative consequences too. One only needs to look at say the ATA to see this!

 

[Bruno@MT]

@Xue:

You have an interesting misconception, namely that you don't belong to a large organization. But you do. Sometime ago you posted that you were angry that some locals were trying to claim lineage in one of your arts without having a genuine claim. That is your organization right there.

As with old Japanese arts, there is a lineage tree of legit grandmasters (menkyo kaiden in Japanese; don't know the Chinese terms) under which you train. For all practical intents and purposes, this is your organization which identifies your training, and you already indicated that membership to that organization is very important / relevant to you.

They might not require you to send money to the grandmaster, and they might not require their certified teachers to do things in a specific way. But nevertheless, such a structure has all the marks of the large organizations that you mentioned.

 

[Xue Sheng]

@Xue:

You have an interesting misconception, namely that you don't belong to a large organization. But you do. Sometime ago you posted that you were angry that some locals were trying to claim lineage in one of your arts without having a genuine claim. That is your organization right there.

As with old Japanese arts, there is a lineage tree of legit grandmasters (menkyo kaiden in Japanese; don't know the Chinese terms) under which you train. For all practical intents and purposes, this is your organization which identifies your training, and you already indicated that membership to that organization is very important / relevant to you.

They might not require you to send money to the grandmaster, and they might not require their certified teachers to do things in a specific way. But nevertheless, such a structure has all the marks of the large organizations that you mentioned.

From what I know of organizations I disagree.

A lineage is not something that is set by a group of people that show up that have trained similar styles who decide what is right or wrong for that lineage. It is a historical fact based on who you trained with. And if I went and decided to train with someone else outside of that lineage there are no repercussions these days.

However there is most certainly politics within lineages, particularly Yang style Taiji. Just look at what the most recent head of the Yang family tried to do as it applies to Yang Shaohou. And to be honest the Yang family is pretty much an organization these days, but I do not belong to it and frankly I do not agree with what they are doing either.

But in my training there are not any rules, ranks or boards to oversee and enforce rules and regulations and for that matter there are no regulations beyond listing to your Sifu while in class which is pretty much found in all martial arts classes

Claiming a lineage that is false is a lie plain and simple, not following the rules of an organization is not a lie it is a breach of contract at best. And my anger towards that was out of respect for my sifu and his sifu and my sifu’s views of Taijiquan which has nothing to do with money. However if they had made the false claim of lineage to my sifu it was simply for one thing and one thing only; Money.

Prior to CMA I was in TKD and as far as I know at that time, pre-olympic there was no organization and before that was Jujitsu which also had no organization. However both did have lineages.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Absolutely! However, look at the BJJ world in general and look hard and you will see the big business it has become. When I started training in BJJ there were no white belt stripes, no tests you just rolled at a seminar and if your instructor had recommended you then you were promoted. Usually it was two, three years or more. Now in recent years I have had blue belts show up at my schools with around a year in training and their technique well it was pretty poor compared to previous years. Plus there was no thing as a kid's jiujitsu class. Now a days in several bjj schools I have been to recently they reminded me more of a McDojo or they were heading down that path. Mind you not all places are like this but they are becoming more frequent. So organizatioin can be good but.... it can also have some negative consequences too. One only needs to look at say the ATA to see this!

Now there's Gracie online university, so you don't even need to go to a school.

ATA practices and online martial arts training and promotion are example of good ideas taken to a point beyond in order to serve profitability. All those fun, rah-rah-rah, family friendly, kid friendly things that the ATA really tries to be about are, in actuality, good. And an online resource for BJJ practitioners is a fantastic idea.

But when those things either become the prime focus of an organization (as happened with the ATA) or are promoted to new students as an alternative to attending an actual class with the ability to earn promotions without ever training with an instructor, the money has become the driving factor.

Once the gimmick replaces the quality of instruction in an organization, that is a signal that the organization has turned a bad corner. Doesn't mean that the organization is worthless or ruined, or corrupt. It just means that they have made a shift in priority away from what the priority needs to be.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Absolutely! However, look at the BJJ world in general and look hard and you will see the big business it has become. When I started training in BJJ there were no white belt stripes, no tests you just rolled at a seminar and if your instructor had recommended you then you were promoted. Usually it was two, three years or more. Now in recent years I have had blue belts show up at my schools with around a year in training and their technique well it was pretty poor compared to previous years. Plus there was no thing as a kid's jiujitsu class. Now a days in several bjj schools I have been to recently they reminded me more of a McDojo or they were heading down that path. Mind you not all places are like this but they are becoming more frequent. So organizatioin can be good but.... it can also have some negative consequences too. One only needs to look at say the ATA to see this!

I have nothing to do with BJJ but I did notice that. It appeared that a few years back finding a blue belt or higher in BJJ was not only rare but a rather impressive achievement. Now it appears there are black belts everywhere.

But then, sadly, this appears to be the way of many Martial Arts these days

 

[terryl965]

Xue I will try to explain my reason for a large org., I have three sons that compete on a high level. I belong to A.A.U. which is the largest org for amature sport in general, they have one of the better grassroot programs for the sport of TKD, which is Olympic style since they started the cadet team that help train young potential athletes in thier dream of someday being a part of a National team, this is for the 10-13 year old childern. They have a wonderful program which is for the 14-17 years old and that is the Junior National team, they pick p all the expenses for each athlete and they go out of the country to get some international time as well.

Now we all know about the IOC, well here in the states that is the USAT the grovern the Olympic dreams here for us so we also belong to the uSAT for the few that want to try and make thier dreams come alive on the highest level the Olympics. I do not need them to train my people but I need them to help certain ones make the attempt to Olympic hopefully.

You see why certain people in the TKD world need certain orgs., I am not a fan but I do understand the steps that need to be taken to be a part fo the Olympic Dreams and I hope I have given you some insight into why certain orgs are needed for that sport of TKD.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have nothing to do with BJJ but I did notice that. It appeared that a few years back finding a blue belt or higher in BJJ was not only rare but a rather impressive achievement. Now it appears there are black belts everywhere.

But then, sadly, this appears to be the way of many Martial Arts these days

I think that this dynamic is created when emphasis is placed on the quantity of black belts promoted by a master. I believe that some organizations actually base in part promotions beyond a certain point (over 6th dan) on this. This is something that I have heard, not something that I have actually observed first hand.

Daniel

 

[tshadowchaser]

Many large organizations are about money and control. If you do not belong then you do not know what your talking about ( or so they say).
Some are good, some are bad, as with all things in life.
I'll give you an example of a bad one ( IMHO) because we have already had an example of a good one.
ANY SOKE organization I consider a bad one. People sitting on a board giveing credentials to others in arts they do not hold high ranks in can not be a good thing. Poeple giveing ranks in their organisation/system to otheres in return for the same rank in the 2nd persons organization can not be a good thing.
Now haveing said that I will agree that a standerisation of forms, base self defence, and time in rank can be good. However if the head of the organization forbids development beyound that then he(they) may be trying to keep the system pure or may be trying to brainwash students into beliveing that "THIS" way is the only way.
Sometimes organizations are strictly about politics and rank. the more influence and how many behinds you kiss means more rank and more say, and to me that is a bad thing. On the flip side some are about preserving the founders thoughts and give rank to that deserve it but it must be earned not bought.
ok just my thoughts folks

sorry for any spelling mistakes I am on a borrowed comp mine is in the shop

 

[Steve]

Absolutely! However, look at the BJJ world in general and look hard and you will see the big business it has become. When I started training in BJJ there were no white belt stripes, no tests you just rolled at a seminar and if your instructor had recommended you then you were promoted. Usually it was two, three years or more. Now in recent years I have had blue belts show up at my schools with around a year in training and their technique well it was pretty poor compared to previous years. Plus there was no thing as a kid's jiujitsu class. Now a days in several bjj schools I have been to recently they reminded me more of a McDojo or they were heading down that path. Mind you not all places are like this but they are becoming more frequent. So organizatioin can be good but.... it can also have some negative consequences too. One only needs to look at say the ATA to see this!

I think you're associating arbitrary and/or innocent things with a deterioration of standards, and then attributing those things to organizations. In general, where organizations are involved, I think that much of the success or failure lies with the competence and vision of the individuals involved. A well run, well led organization will be good for the group.

First, though, I won't argue that a deterioration of standards is occurring. Honestly, I don't know enough to say. I have seen little of it in the local area, but have also seen my first BJJ mcdojo, too (complete with birthday parties).

The questions are whether everything you've listed is bad and is contributing to this slip in standards AND whether these things (good or bad) can be attributed to a larger organization. I'll go through some of the things you mention.

First, kids classes have existed in BJJ since forever in Brazil. There are several excellent kids programs in my area. Every single elite competitor started as a youngster. BJJ is still relatively young in the USA. Less than 20 years for the most part, with most of the expansion in schools having occurred within the last 10. It stands to reason that establishing some good kids programs would take a while in the States. I don't have any problem with kids programs, in general, and believe that they can be VERY positive and helpful. But good or bad, how can this be attributed to the IBJJF?

Stripes on belts... that's really a non-issue for me. With 1 to 3 years between belt promotions, there can be a very big difference between, say, a brand new blue belt and one who's worn it for 2 years. I'm an entirely different grappler than I was 2 years ago putting my blue belt on for the first time. But if my instructor didn't use them, I wouldn't miss them at all. It's just not a big deal, and IMO, not an indication of bad organizational control. The IBJJF doesn't have anything to do with this.

BJJ is big business, and I won't deny that. But that's going to happen with or without a large organization. The key question for me is whether the organization is steering the ship in a positive way or a negative way.

I think, overall, the IBJJF is very good for BJJ. The Pan Ams and Mundials are well run tournaments running thousands of matches safely and efficiently. The ruleset is very clear. The belt structure, weight classes and age brackets make sense. The changes that they make seem well considered and don't unduly interfere with local instruction.

Outside the IBJJF, most of the issues that might arise are a result of local affiliation. Gracie Barra is the largest BJJ affiliation in the world, and overall, they run great schools with a structured curriculum. I'm a part of Lotus Club. Much smaller, but also with good schools and strong competitive records. Giva Santana is my coach's coach, and he's top teir. Alliance, Braja, CheckMat, Gracie Humaita... there are tons.

With the growth of any style, there are going to be frauds and charlatans, but I just don't see exclusivity as being a positive or a negative. It just is. Seeing more BJJ blue belts (and black belts), IMO, is simply a reflection of the popularity of the style. Implying that a belt rank is worth less simply because more people train in the style just doesn't logically follow.

My instructor just promoted his first two black belts a few weeks ago. One guy has trained for 10 years and the other for almost 14. On the other hand, he has a brown belt he promoted who has been training for just over 4. All three are very well deserved.

 

[Steve]

Now there's Gracie online university, so you don't even need to go to a school.

ATA practices and online martial arts training and promotion are example of good ideas taken to a point beyond in order to serve profitability. All those fun, rah-rah-rah, family friendly, kid friendly things that the ATA really tries to be about are, in actuality, good. And an online resource for BJJ practitioners is a fantastic idea.

But when those things either become the prime focus of an organization (as happened with the ATA) or are promoted to new students as an alternative to attending an actual class with the ability to earn promotions without ever training with an instructor, the money has become the driving factor.

Once the gimmick replaces the quality of instruction in an organization, that is a signal that the organization has turned a bad corner. Doesn't mean that the organization is worthless or ruined, or corrupt. It just means that they have made a shift in priority away from what the priority needs to be.

Daniel

Keeping the record straight here, the Gracie University is in no way affiliiated with the IBJJF. The only organization that the IBJJF is loosely connected to is Gracie Barra, although Carlos Gracie Jr has been very careful so far to keep them distinct.

There are tons of online resources out there for BJJ. JJ Machado, Marcelo Garcia and many others have established "online universities" although to my knowledge none award rank.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Keeping the record straight here, the Gracie University is in no way affiliiated with the IBJJF. The only organization that the IBJJF is loosely connected to is Gracie Barra, although Carlos Gracie Jr has been very careful so far to keep them distinct.

I appreciate the clarification.

There are tons of online resources out there for BJJ. JJ Machado, Marcelo Garcia and many others have established "online universities" although to my knowledge none award rank.

The impression that I got from the presentation on the site was that Gracie University Online does award rank. I have no knowledge of the others.

Daniel