Opponent's reaction to strikes

[punisher73]

Question for you all. Many of the technique's flow is based on an opponent's reaction to the strikes. Do any of you find that some techniques are based on an incorrect assumption of how an opponent will react?

For example, I have seen some techs that have a follow up strike to a solar plexus punch being a chop to the back of the opponent's neck because he has bent over from the solar plexus strike. Most of the time (almost 100%) when I have hit someone with a punch to the midsection the opponent "folds" around the punch but does not bend over at the waist.

Anyone else have the same result or do your opponent's always bend over?

 

[Mark Weiser]

One of the great things about Kenpo is we can borrow movements from our arsenal to deal with this problem.

If an Opponent refuses to bend over from a punch to the Solar region. We can follow up with a upward palm heel strike to the chin lifting the opponent up on his toes or even backwards. However if the opponent bends over we like to shot an upward elbow to the chin/neck area followed by an downward fist across the face then unleash a scooping kick to the groin and then move back into the recovery position to unleash another series of blows if needed.

 

[MA-Caver]

Having the adaptablity to change forms/techniques is one of the things that attracts me to Kenpo, although I'm not (presently) studying it. GM Parker (Sr.) was an experienced street fighter and he knew from personal experience and observation that not everyone is going to react in the same way all the time. It is up to the kenpoist to be able to switch in the middle of one form to another. This takes additional practice on-top of the regular practice. Kenpo from what I know of it has numerous of techniques/forms that allows the artist to pick and choose which will suit. Of course the higher the belt ranking the more options said artist will have to choose from. It'll be a matter of doing it instantaneously.

As a (former) street-fighter I've seen and experienced many fights where a guy would hit another and the other just stood there and grinned, while others over-reacted and you're/they're like... I just barely touched him!???.
IMO for the kenpoist (or any other MA) adaptability is the key in a "for-real" situation... (isn't that what we're all really training for??). Point is; having the flexibility to change in the middle of the fight/form/technique goes a long way in helping to be coming out ahead.
:asian:

 

[BlackCatBonz]

dont think "technique". techniques are tools to help you understand movement...... once you have developed a keen sense, you no longer think technically, you just move.

shawn

 

[Han-Mi]

dont think "technique". techniques are tools to help you understand movement...... once you have developed a keen sense, you no longer think technically, you just move.

shawn

I agree and disagree. You don't think technically, but you tend to move technically. The better your technique, the more effective it is. Sometimes movements that are not techniques at all are most useful, but a good technical base is important.

The main thing I think you were eluding to is that you do not group techniques based on what you are to in sets, but by what is happening in the moment. That I agree with completely.

 

[MJS]

Question for you all. Many of the technique's flow is based on an opponent's reaction to the strikes. Do any of you find that some techniques are based on an incorrect assumption of how an opponent will react?

For example, I have seen some techs that have a follow up strike to a solar plexus punch being a chop to the back of the opponent's neck because he has bent over from the solar plexus strike. Most of the time (almost 100%) when I have hit someone with a punch to the midsection the opponent "folds" around the punch but does not bend over at the waist.

Anyone else have the same result or do your opponent's always bend over?

It all comes down to being able to flow smoothly. I've seen some people doing a tech. and the 'attacker' moves in a different way than what the defender is used to. The typical response from the defender...

"You moved wrong. Here, throw the attack at me again."

That is a perfect example of being able to just flow from one move to the next. If one thing isnt working, you need to be able to keep the flow going and do something else.

The SD techs. are always taught in the 'ideal phase' to start off. Once the person gets used to that, they shoulndt be relying on those techs. but instead, use them as a foundation, and be able to build off of them and be creative.

Mike

 

[bignick]

in a self-defense situation...do you best to make plan A work....but you better have a good plan B too

 

[MJS]

Something that might help this to make more sense. Check out the new On the Mat clip in the Kenpo EPAK thread. Some very good examples of different reactions are shown there.

Mike

 

[Rick Wade]

Something that might help this to make more sense. Check out the new On the Mat clip in the Kenpo EPAK thread. Some very good examples of different reactions are shown there.

Mike

We work with this in our Monday night advanced class in that towards the end of the night we start juicing the techniques up. Now what I mean is we don't break bones or send anyone to the hospital but I like to start attacking harder so that you defend more like you would in the street. and it is amazing. example this week we were woring on grasp of death with some extentions. We pointed out the head lock is not coming from I bend over you put your arm around me and yadda yadda yadda. the attackis comming from some one jumping on you from the back and he has forward momentum, that is how you get out of the head lock and that in combination is how you spin him around. Put a little bit of realisim into your attacks and see what happens.

I see the same thing in non Kenpo shools but it is in the form of someone says hit me and the attacker thows a punch that couldn't have hit them. i.e. the attacker with a strait arm and his fist isn't even touching the opponts body. where you see the transition is in sparring at tournaments alot of people throw punches and kicks that can't reach because that is how they practice.

Remember you fight like you train.

V/R
Rick

 

[punisher73]

The SD techs. are always taught in the 'ideal phase' to start off. Once the person gets used to that, they shoulndt be relying on those techs
----------------

I understand going beyond the technique and flowing to open targets etc. My question was when the technique is in the "ideal phase" and everything is perfect you notice that the way the technique is set up that no one would respond to a strike that way no matter what.

The technique that comes to mind is called "fists of fury" and seems like a 5 swords variation. In the technique the main strikes are a right inward block that goes into a right backfist. Then a left reverse punch using a vertical fist to the solar plexus. Then you kind of move off angle and then a right hammerfist to the back of the opponent's neck because he has bent over at the waist from the punch.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Heretic! %-}

I agree. Several techniques are based on wrong assumptions for the ideal phase. Thundering Hammers works far better if you start with an uppercut to the groin (Trejo). Five swords works beautifully if you do the uppercut "too low" (Planas). I agree with all the responses that Kenpo contains the answers to variable response to a technique, but that's not what P73 asked.

Mr. Planas states that Kenpo contains True/False questions which the student needs to ask for themselves. I'm not comfortable with this because I can't imagine why we should practice anything in a wrong manner.

 

[MJS]

We work with this in our Monday night advanced class in that towards the end of the night we start juicing the techniques up. Now what I mean is we don't break bones or send anyone to the hospital but I like to start attacking harder so that you defend more like you would in the street. and it is amazing. example this week we were woring on grasp of death with some extentions. We pointed out the head lock is not coming from I bend over you put your arm around me and yadda yadda yadda. the attackis comming from some one jumping on you from the back and he has forward momentum, that is how you get out of the head lock and that in combination is how you spin him around. Put a little bit of realisim into your attacks and see what happens.

Yes, I enjoy doing the same thing as well. Especially in the advanced ranks, you need to pick up the pace. Nothing like adding in some good power, resistance and aliveness to supercharge the workout a little!!!!

I see the same thing in non Kenpo shools but it is in the form of someone says hit me and the attacker thows a punch that couldn't have hit them. i.e. the attacker with a strait arm and his fist isn't even touching the opponts body. where you see the transition is in sparring at tournaments alot of people throw punches and kicks that can't reach because that is how they practice.

It drives me nuts when I see that!!! The same thing is done with chokes. It looks more like a shoulder massage than a choke. As you said above, I'm not saying put the person in the ER, but come on, at least put your hands around the throat!!!

Remember you fight like you train.

Absolutely!!!!

Mike

 

[MJS]

The SD techs. are always taught in the 'ideal phase' to start off. Once the person gets used to that, they shoulndt be relying on those techs
----------------

I understand going beyond the technique and flowing to open targets etc. My question was when the technique is in the "ideal phase" and everything is perfect you notice that the way the technique is set up that no one would respond to a strike that way no matter what.

While it may be possible to do that tech. in the ideal phase, the odds of it happening that way are slim. Again, thats why I stress to the students they should use the techs. as a foundation to build off of. Once they get the understanding of the tech. then they need to be creative and just react.

Mike

 

[Mekugi]

Hi!

Hope you don't mind, but I would like to quote something from Iwaki Hideo on this subject. He uses the word "Henka" or varation in this case to describe what I believe is being discussed here. Pardon the intrusion, but I thought you may like it:

Therefore, by entering form and withdrawing without trace, by being neither concerned with defense or offense, following the natural physical laws without strength and discarding any trace of oneself, you can bridal and ride the opponents form. You should think of this as though riding on the peak of a wave. We call this "log floating on the wave", and as though you were floating on that wave, you will be able to feel the opponents balance and intention at it's core. Using your body and gravity to eliminate the force that is felt, applying proper footwork to move in the direction in which it was eliminated, a version of the appropriate kata that fits the situation will appear. This is the same as the "standard" opening moves in the game of chess (note: he said "Go" Originally). Although I said "standard", the substance is altogether different. This 'substance' is the subtlety in henka where the inside and outside are Combined by acquiring a sense for this subtlety. Then, we can freely focus on the forces of natural movement which is the object of henka. Henka is to discard any trace of your predetermined action, to ride upon the enemy's form, to blend in the direction of that form and return to the beginning

Note: this is my translation of this passage, I had to change the language used slightly to have it make sense in English. Pardon is begged in advance!

 

[Han-Mi]

One more thing to think about.

Not everyone is trained to our ability and physical standards. Often, if you hit an untrained person in the stomach they will fold over it more than a trained fighter. In fact, a friend of mine started trainin 3 years ago. I always tried my techs on him and tried to teach him some stuff here and ther, before he started training. He pretty much reacted how he should. Once he started training, he reacted less, making the techs harder to apply.

 

[8253]

The techniques in Kenpo are there to teach the basic movements of what could be done in a specific situation. However no opponent will react exactly the way the techniques show in practice. That is why there are so many variations taught in Kenpo at different levels. As your training continues, the basics of the techniques only change slightly, but it is these variables that teach you to deal with the different reactions that a persons body does after you strike your target. Granted there are major changes to techniques but those are just other variations as well. It is very rare that a technique can be completed in an actual fight. This is why there is such an arsenal in Kenpo. There will always be another option.

 

[MisterMike]

I find that is true for every style.

 

[Karazenpo]

dont think "technique". techniques are tools to help you understand movement...... once you have developed a keen sense, you no longer think technically, you just move.

shawn

First of all, Shawn, I totally agree with your post. Now, the answer to the originally question is 'yes' I have seen tecthniques that don't fit body reaction. For instance, a hammerfist to the groin followed by a backfist to the nose. I've seen this in several Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo systems and even a Bruce Lee movie. I suppose one could say if you're fast enough you can catch him to the face before he buckles or the backfist is followup if the hammerfist did not serve it's purpose properly.........but that's just one that instantly comes to mind. The rule of thumb I use in body reactions is this. 1) When you strike an oppponent to the face the head goes backward. How far back? Who knows? It can be just a snap back to some degree or go all the way down to the ground. 2) When you strike to the groin or solar plexus, your opponent 'sucks in' , buckles over or goes down to the ground. In my experiences, that's about all you can count on regarding body reactions to strikes. The high strike he goes back, the mid to lower strike he comes forward. Bear in mind, I'm referring to hand strikes. It's goes without saying a powerful side kick, etc. to the solar plexus could knock an opponent over backwards!

 

[Rick Wade]

One more thing to think about.

Not everyone is trained to our ability and physical standards. Often, if you hit an untrained person in the stomach they will fold over it more than a trained fighter. In fact, a friend of mine started trainin 3 years ago. I always tried my techs on him and tried to teach him some stuff here and ther, before he started training. He pretty much reacted how he should. Once he started training, he reacted less, making the techs harder to apply.

We have a saying in the UKF ignore the mass. learn how to make your friend fold over you can make anyone fold over. adn THAT is what make you and him better. That is what you see when you see the upper belts practicing and one guy hits someone and it doesn't look that hard but the guy folds up like an envelope.

 

[Han-Mi]

We have a saying in the UKF ignore the mass. learn how to make your friend fold over you can make anyone fold over. adn THAT is what make you and him better. That is what you see when you see the upper belts practicing and one guy hits someone and it doesn't look that hard but the guy folds up like an envelope.

Good point