Teaching

[kenpo tiger]

One of the requirements for black belt in our school is teaching. When you reach Brown I, and have learned all the requirements for Black, you are assigned a class that you teach once a week. Everyone who teaches has, by virtue of having reached advanced colored belt rank or Black belt, a good working knowledge of the basic techniques and extensions, forms and sets because of time spent in our system and just plain hard work to get to where they are.

We are taught that MSGM Parker encouraged ideas and interpretation of his system, which is why there are different styles of the same art.

My question is: since thought and interpretation are encouraged by the nature of kenpo, if a student is taught something by the head instructor which is interpreted differently but within the proper context (as interpreting a particular portion of a form or set with regard to method or direction of attack) by another instructor, should the student refuse instruction (after requesting help) because he thinks it's wrong? Should the instructor in question refuse to continue teaching that student?

Your thoughts, please.

 

[Thesemindz]

I have been taught several things differently by different instructors. The best solution is for the student to perform the material the way the instructor standing in front of him tells him to perform it, and then analyze the situation later, with the same instructor, a different instructor, or on his own, and look for similarities and differences and see what can be learned from the experience.

I have seen this very situation give rise to all sorts of foolishness on the part of students and instructors alike. The instructor will sometimes get uppity and superior and tell the student "this is how it is and this is how its going to be," that accomplishes nothing positive. At the same time, I know students who simply refused to do as an instructor asked during a group class because, "that's not how Mr. X taught me to do it, so I just ignored the instructor." This is also silly because the instructor was put in his position for a reason, to ignore what he's trying to share with you because it's new or different is small minded and foolish, not to mention that it undermines his position and disrupts class, possible hindering other students from learning the lesson the instructor is trying to teach.

As an instructor, I tell my students, perform the material this way, if an instructor asks you to do it differently, before you tell him no find out why he thinks its a good idea. Then play with both ways later on. Worst case scenario, you'll find out which one works better for you, and learn a little more about why to do or not do certain things. Best case scenario, you learn two different ways to accomplish the same goal.

Instructors have to be willing to admit they don't have the monopoly on what is right and wrong, and they need to teach their students to be open to many different ideas and how to find the lessons contained within each. Students need to be willing to learn, really learn, and not just to parrot what Mr. X taught them.


-Rob

 

[Han-Mi]

I have been taught several things differently by different instructors. The best solution is for the student to perform the material the way the instructor standing in front of him tells him to perform it, and then analyze the situation later, with the same instructor, a different instructor, or on his own, and look for similarities and differences and see what can be learned from the experience.

I have seen this very situation give rise to all sorts of foolishness on the part of students and instructors alike. The instructor will sometimes get uppity and superior and tell the student "this is how it is and this is how its going to be," that accomplishes nothing positive. At the same time, I know students who simply refused to do as an instructor asked during a group class because, "that's not how Mr. X taught me to do it, so I just ignored the instructor." This is also silly because the instructor was put in his position for a reason, to ignore what he's trying to share with you because it's new or different is small minded and foolish, not to mention that it undermines his position and disrupts class, possible hindering other students from learning the lesson the instructor is trying to teach.

As an instructor, I tell my students, perform the material this way, if an instructor asks you to do it differently, before you tell him no find out why he thinks its a good idea. Then play with both ways later on. Worst case scenario, you'll find out which one works better for you, and learn a little more about why to do or not do certain things. Best case scenario, you learn two different ways to accomplish the same goal.

Instructors have to be willing to admit they don't have the monopoly on what is right and wrong, and they need to teach their students to be open to many different ideas and how to find the lessons contained within each. Students need to be willing to learn, really learn, and not just to parrot what Mr. X taught them.


-Rob

Very well put.

In my experience teaching, I often come to a situation where a student will say that a different instructor had taught something to them differently. If the instructor is a higher rank I often tell them to do it that way until I can disguss it with them. If we are equally ranked or I am higher rank, I will have the student practice it my way and tell them to ask me about it again after I have had a chance to speek with the other instructor.
I do not come out and say 1 or the other is wrong. I understand that it is great to learn many perspectives and, it is a good way for a student to develop their own pespective. Often enough we end up saying that the student may do it either way they prefer. And sometimes we learn that we were wrong and that in practical application, what we did will not work. Whatever happens, you should remind the student that you are teaching and that they should respect you and your teachings as you have more experience than them.

Try not to be overbearing though.

K, I'm done.:asian:

 

[MJS]

One of the requirements for black belt in our school is teaching. When you reach Brown I, and have learned all the requirements for Black, you are assigned a class that you teach once a week. Everyone who teaches has, by virtue of having reached advanced colored belt rank or Black belt, a good working knowledge of the basic techniques and extensions, forms and sets because of time spent in our system and just plain hard work to get to where they are.

We are taught that MSGM Parker encouraged ideas and interpretation of his system, which is why there are different styles of the same art.

My question is: since thought and interpretation are encouraged by the nature of kenpo, if a student is taught something by the head instructor which is interpreted differently but within the proper context (as interpreting a particular portion of a form or set with regard to method or direction of attack) by another instructor, should the student refuse instruction (after requesting help) because he thinks it's wrong? Should the instructor in question refuse to continue teaching that student?

Your thoughts, please.

I've run into this countless times. One inst. teaches one way and the next teaches different from the first, and so on. While its good to have some uniformity in the way things are taught, its also important to remember that we are all different. One person may need to adapt the tech. to fit them, due to size, strength, etc. therefore, you'll get a different 'version' of the tech. so to speak. Is this wrong??? Not at all. I've had students say to me one person taught this move to me different from what you're doing. I never try to discredit the other person, but simply tell the student about the variations. As for refusing instruction. If thats the case, then they are not keeping an open mind to different variations and possibilities. Should the inst refuse to teach? Of course not.

Mike

 

[Kenpodoc]

Two sides to this question. As the instructor I try to teach the standard curriculum as laid out by my instructor. If a student tells me they learned it differently from another instructor, I acknowlege that there is more than one way to do a technique. I then ask them to learn it my way but advise them that I will check with our chief instructor and get back to them about the technique. This allows me to keep the class flowing and gives me opportunities to reevaluate my own knowlege.

As a student I try to learn each variation as I learn it. As a result I have techniques in which I know what I call the Lee Wedlake, Huk Planas, Frank Trejo and Paul Dye variations. There is important information buried in each variation. I review each variation with my Instructor since it is Mr. Hatfield's studio and he deserves to be allowed to choose his standard technique. I sometimes choose one variation as my own personal favorite.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[kenpo tiger]

This thread arose from a discussion Pete and I had after class one evening. We are the same rank, but Pete has more time in kenpo than I do, so I enjoy hearing his 'take' on things. He's also quite practical in his application of some of our techniques and often spots the 'hidden moves' buried therein and can easily activate them. This particular topic is one he and I discuss at great length due to our mutual curiousity with the 'what-if' factor. As he's much taller and broader than I am, it's interesting to hear his take on how to apply the final kick at the end of "Unfolding the Dark", since he has longer legs and will most certainly end up in a different position than I will vis-a-vis the attacker once he's on the ground. The same is true for certain forms - where I would have to be in relation to my attacker isn't the same as it is for a taller person.

I enjoy hearing from everyone about how they adapt techniques and forms to suit their body type or the situation because I can only learn and benefit. KT

 

[pete]

that would be environment and target availability

 

[Doc]

One of the requirements for black belt in our school is teaching. When you reach Brown I, and have learned all the requirements for Black, you are assigned a class that you teach once a week. Everyone who teaches has, by virtue of having reached advanced colored belt rank or Black belt, a good working knowledge of the basic techniques and extensions, forms and sets because of time spent in our system and just plain hard work to get to where they are.

We are taught that MSGM Parker encouraged ideas and interpretation of his system, which is why there are different styles of the same art.

My question is: since thought and interpretation are encouraged by the nature of kenpo, if a student is taught something by the head instructor which is interpreted differently but within the proper context (as interpreting a particular portion of a form or set with regard to method or direction of attack) by another instructor, should the student refuse instruction (after requesting help) because he thinks it's wrong? Should the instructor in question refuse to continue teaching that student?

Your thoughts, please.

It is the nature and practice of our University to recognize that a curriculum at a specific level will convey the same information by all members of the teaching staff to students.

It is NEVER the students responsibility to discern what is "correct." It is the responsibility of the teaching staff to insure a consistency in curriculum from student to student, class to class, and level to level as dictated by the final authority or head teacher. If you are encapable of teaching what is deemed correct, you should not be teaching. Descrepencies are addressed and resolved immediately to avoid any confusion among the student body.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

The arts I study are not kenpo, so I post here just as a comment from someone from a different system. My instructors often go out of their way to point out the different ways of doing the same or similar manoeuvers - "it's the same, but different" is something I started hearing as soon as I started training. I think it's a great thing to do - although sometimes a student (me) may feel overwhelmed with the flexibility, the drills we do are more simplified, which helps. But I really like being able to see, and try to understand, how fluid and adaptable a particular response can be.

 

[Doc]

In my experience, when "instructors" spend a considerable amount of time speaking of endleass variables and possibilities, they have very little real information to desseminate. The compexity of basics and their applications are significant enough without introducing alternate material and ideas not actually relevant to the student developing immediate skills and a workable understanding of the core material.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

that would be environment and target availability

You go get 'em Pete LOL.


DarK LorD

 

[mj-hi-yah]

It is the nature and practice of our University to recognize that a curriculum at a specific level will convey the same information by all members of the teaching staff to students.

Doc what steps do you take in your University to ensure this? What do you do to prepare your teachers for communicating consistent teaching? Do your students have a mentor or intern before taking on their first teaching class? Do you have teaching preparatory classes? How long before the average person in your University begins teaching?

It is NEVER the students responsibility to discern what is "correct."

This is very interesting...

It is the responsibility of the teaching staff to insure a consistency in curriculum from student to student, class to class, and level to level as dictated by the final authority or head teacher. If you are encapable of teaching what is deemed correct, you should not be teaching. Descrepencies are addressed and resolved immediately to avoid any confusion among the student body.

Do you ever consider that depending on an individual's body type that the targets or weapons may need to be adapted as a result of the differences in things like weight and height? To give an example from our yellow belt moves...Attacking Mace...If a very tall person is executing this move, because of their long legs, using the instep of the foot to hit the target in the roundhouse kick may not be as practical as having the knee come around to the target. Would you make exceptions for this type of thing in your University, or do you have moves in your curriculum that are intended for all body types to execute in exactly the same way?

Respectfully,
MJ :asian:

 

[Doc]

Doc what steps do you take in your University to ensure this? What do you do to prepare your teachers for communicating consistent teaching? Do your students have a mentor or intern before taking on their first teaching class? Do you have teaching preparatory classes? How long before the average person in your University begins teaching?

All classes are designed to begin the process of becoming a competent teacher. Although there are those who decide they do not want to teach, all individuals are taught from the same perspective.

All students are mentored by select senior teachers and begin an internship during Course 105 (green) where monitored teaching is mandatory under the scrutiny of all senior staff. All students regardless of tenure or level are subject to correction while they are teaching. I personally monitor all classes and interns consistently, as well as teach.

Those who are successful receive a teaching credential over and above course completion certifications for various levels of proficiency. Teaching credentials much be renewed every other year through a minimum number of class participation hours as a student as well as a teacher demonstrating mastery of the latest curriculum information. Only those with teaching credentials may teach regardless of age, tenure, or rank. All numerical “rankings” are considered honorary or emeritus depending upon the individual. There are no exception, myself included. The credentials board consists of 6 “Deans,” the most senior professor, Ed Parker as well as senior consultants (for the higher credentials) from our school department heads from Pentjak, W.A.R., Jiu-jitsu, Aikido, and Qung fu.

During any class session, the most senior credentialed teacher is responsible for “quality control” of the curriculum. The basic guidelines and all undergrad course materials are available on the floor via computer where all instructors have access.

Quote:
It is NEVER the student’s responsibility to discern what is "correct."

This is very interesting...

Quote:
It is the responsibility of the teaching staff to insure a consistency in curriculum from student to student, class to class, and level to level as dictated by the final authority or head teacher. If you are incapable of teaching what is deemed correct, you should not be teaching. Discrepancies are addressed and resolved immediately to avoid any confusion among the student body.

Do you ever consider that depending on an individual's body type that the targets or weapons may need to be adapted as a result of the differences in things like weight and height?

Perhaps you forgot in the lengthy description of the program you read. It states, “Tailoring is usually restricted to Physical Geometry Limitations inherent in the diversity of human anatomy. That is, if a person is too tall for you to reach the prescribed target, there is a tailored adjustment made, but the target change usually conforms to the same meridian for destructive effect, not personal preference. Motion-based-Kenpo Karate is 90% “Tailoring,” SubLevel Four is the opposite with a 90% structured curriculum because of body effective limitations. Tailoring in the lower division is restricted to diversity in height and girth only, and only as dictated by the senior instructor.”

To give an example from our yellow belt moves...Attacking Mace...If a very tall person is executing this move, because of their long legs, using the instep of the foot to hit the target in the roundhouse kick may not be as practical as having the knee come around to the target.

Bad example. First roundhouse kicks should not be executed with the instep. Second, the knee will not reach the appropriate target, and negate the rest of the technique, not to mention you will be dangerously close to an attacker with them sitting on your centerline. Bad idea.

Everything I write and every conversation I have with a “student” I remember. Make sure before you ask a question that you have absorbed previously disseminated information with the same degree of seriousness in which it is given. Grades go down and time is diverted.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

All classes are designed to begin the process of becoming a competent teacher. Although there are those who decide they do not want to teach, all individuals are taught from the same perspective.

This is interesting. Some people are not comfortable teaching. Do you have many students who don't teach?

All students are mentored by select senior teachers and begin an internship during Course 105 (green) where monitored teaching is mandatory under the scrutiny of all senior staff. All students regardless of tenure or level are subject to correction while they are teaching. I personally monitor all classes and interns consistently, as well as teach

This is excellent!

Those who are successful receive a teaching credential over and above course completion certifications for various levels of proficiency. Teaching credentials much be renewed every other year through a minimum number of class participation hours as a student as well as a teacher demonstrating mastery of the latest curriculum information. Only those with teaching credentials may teach regardless of age, tenure, or rank. All numerical “rankings” are considered honorary or emeritus depending upon the individual. There are no exception, myself included.

These are great standards. The fact that you hold yourself to the same level of review as all other teachers is very progressive.

The credentials board consists of 6 “Deans,” the most senior professor, Ed Parker as well as senior consultants (for the higher credentials) from our school department heads from Pentjak, W.A.R., Jiu-jitsu, Aikido, and Qung fu.

This is interesting. Your students are very lucky to have this.

During any class session, the most senior credentialed teacher is responsible for “quality control” of the curriculum. The basic guidelines and all undergrad course materials are available on the floor via computer where all instructors have access.

Doc how did you come to this? The use of computers in martial arts teaching is quite innovative.

Bad example. First roundhouse kicks should not be executed with the instep. Second, the knee will not reach the appropriate target, and negate the rest of the technique, not to mention you will be dangerously close to an attacker with them sitting on your centerline. Bad idea.

Thanks for sharing your obsevations on this.

Everything I write and every conversation I have with a “student” I remember. Make sure before you ask a question that you have absorbed previously disseminated information with the same degree of seriousness in which it is given. Grades go down and time is diverted.

:asian: Please see my e-mail.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Doc,

You said, supra, "First roundhouse kicks should not be executed with the instep." Please explain.
I was taught to execute a roundhouse kick by chambering the leg, pivoting my foot, bringing the leg up into 'tabletop' position (head, knee and heel aligned) in order to 'turn the hip over' with the lower portion of the leg cocked, and then extending the lower portion of the leg, striking the target with my shin and instep, retracting and so on to finish executing the kick.

Thank you. KT

 

[Doc]

Doc,

You said, supra, "First roundhouse kicks should not be executed with the instep." Please explain.
I was taught to execute a roundhouse kick by chambering the leg, pivoting my foot, bringing the leg up into 'tabletop' position (head, knee and heel aligned) in order to 'turn the hip over' with the lower portion of the leg cocked, and then extending the lower portion of the leg, striking the target with my shin and instep, retracting and so on to finish executing the kick.

Thank you. KT

Kicking with the shin and instep is a basic that prevails mostly in kicking based sport arts. It is generally not seen in any of the traditional Japanese, Okinawan, or Chinese Arts. Its existence can be traced back to excessive "tailoring" and borrowing of basic from other arts, as well as a focus on competition kicking.

Although there are a few applications that make this acceptable, in general an extension of the ankle and matatarsals and flexation of the toes will result in significant strain on the hip flexors. Over time hip surgery is guaranteed. If this type of kick must be utilized, it should never be done any higher than the mid-level of your own thigh. At this height it is almost quasi-acceptable but the truth is, that foot position sends an ambiguous message to the body that does not allow it to "set" for the intended activity.

A kick is defined in SL-4 by Ed Parker Sr. as an "exaggerated step" for a reason. The method you stated will eventually lead to some type of medical intervention. Some really great kickers have had hip replacement surgery because of improper basics and body mechanics. I can think of three prominent names in motion based Kenpo. Sorry but from my understanding it is a VERY, VERY bad idea.

 

[Doc]

This is interesting. Some people are not comfortable teaching. Do you have many students who don't teach?

Yes there are many who don't or no longer teach. The senior Deans in general don't teach anymore after many years of doing so. Of course when you stop teaching your teaching credential lapses and they work primarily as administrators. To go back in the classroom they would have to intern again under a senior instructor and update their understanding of the curriculum. There are others who choose not to teach but the majority look forward to it. However no one is required to teach for advancement. In my view nothing is worse than a "teacher" who doesn't want to be a "teacher."

These are great standards. The fact that you hold yourself to the same level of review as all other teachers is very progressive.

Progressive yes, but no big deal when you consider I am the final authority on information. It was set in place for when someone else will be the "head" to insure there is never a dictatorial structure when it comes to knowledge and information. Knowledge should prevail, not numerical rank or position.

Doc how did you come to this? The use of computers in martial arts teaching is quite innovative.

Ed Parker Sr. began using computers from day one of their invention. Ed Parker jr. has kept me abreast of the latest technology and has always facilitated my computer work and kept me reasonable current. To place as much of the curriculum as possible on computer for student teacher access just makes sense if you're serious about standardization and consistency in the dessemination of information.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Kicking with the shin and instep is a basic that prevails mostly in kicking based sport arts. It is generally not seen in any of the traditional Japanese, Okinawan, or Chinese Arts. Its existence can be traced back to excessive "tailoring" and borrowing of basic from other arts, as well as a focus on competition kicking.

Although there are a few applications that make this acceptable, in general an extension of the ankle and matatarsals and flexation of the toes will result in significant strain on the hip flexors. Over time hip surgery is guaranteed. If this type of kick must be utilized, it should never be done any higher than the mid-level of your own thigh. At this height it is almost quasi-acceptable but the truth is, that foot position sends an ambiguous message to the body that does not allow it to "set" for the intended activity.

A kick is defined in SL-4 by Ed Parker Sr. as an "exaggerated step" for a reason. The method you stated will eventually lead to some type of medical intervention. Some really great kickers have had hip replacement surgery because of improper basics and body mechanics. I can think of three prominent names in motion based Kenpo. Sorry but from my understanding it is a VERY, VERY bad idea.

That's very interesting. Then, if a kick is 'an exaggerated step' - and please excuse my ignorance of Sub-Level 4 principles - then how would the roundhouse kick be executed? (BTW - I was taught that method in two separate arts, not kenpo, one of which is a hybrid karate based upon shotokan and the other taekwondo. I'm not saying it's right - it's what I was taught, as stated.) KT

 

[TigerWoman]

Just an observation, the only problems I have seen or heard of with the instep roundhouse kick was in the foot inself. Probably from kicking too many stacked/taped together boards or concrete. Some have had foot surgery for broken bones from that. (TKD)

I would also like to hear more details on how this could lead to hip problems. I've been doing hard roundkicks for 8 years and am 54 and frankly my hips feel better than when I started. Also, I am quite comfortable kicking anywhere from chest to head level with a round kick, so am quite confused with your statement, Doc. Just wondered, since I don't know you, do you have a medical degree to base that statement on or can you substantiate that in any way? TW

 

[MJS]

Doc,

You said, supra, "First roundhouse kicks should not be executed with the instep." Please explain.
I was taught to execute a roundhouse kick by chambering the leg, pivoting my foot, bringing the leg up into 'tabletop' position (head, knee and heel aligned) in order to 'turn the hip over' with the lower portion of the leg cocked, and then extending the lower portion of the leg, striking the target with my shin and instep, retracting and so on to finish executing the kick.

Thank you. KT

This is how I learned to throw the kick as well. However, keep in mind that the bones of the foot are small. I can see how kicking a target, be it a bag or a body, with the instep can cause a strain. You will get much more power throwing the Thai style RH kick with the shin. In addition, you will also get more power by following through with the kick, rather than doing the snapping motion.

Mike