Opinions Wanted

[Thesemindz]

I've had a suggestion to limit posting in The Study to Supporting Members only.

Regular members would still be able to read it.

Thoughts?

Well Bob, it's your site.

Personally, I'd hope you leave it open. I've been meaning for years to support, and never found the money. I'm not going to make excuses for it, it is what it is. I'm taking advantage of the free services you offer.

If you make it pay for play, I'll probably still take advantage of the free services, but I'll miss another one I'm not paying for.

Like I said, it's your site, but I hope you leave it the way it is.


-Rob

 

[terryl965]

Bob the study need to stay even though I cannot stand it for the various reasons. I would suggest you make it by invite only for those individuals that are really causing you the most problems, but then again that would be censorship and I am not for that. The best thing is to meave it and carry on the way it has been and those that cannot seem to get the rule go and seel tranquality for a brief while.

 

[Thesemindz]

An unmoderated study leaves a free-for-all bull **** section where the most idiotic things can be posted, insults slung, threats leveled (you know, kind of like now)

I guess it's just me, but I haven't noticed it being so bad.

I mean, I understand that sometimes the conversations get kinda heated, and I understand that there are some differing opinions, but has it really gotten this out of hand?

Maybe I've just missed those threads. I know I've gotten in some heated discussions with some other posters, and sometimes I've put people on my ignore list, although I always take them back off immediately because I can't handle not knowing, but nothing I've seen has driven me away.

Not everyone agrees with me. Not everyone holds views I consider legitimate, or reasonable, or even sane. Some people hold views I find misguided, or based on faulty information. I even think a few people are morons. But that's ok. I'm sure many people feel the same way about me. It doesn't bother me, I'm confident in my positions, and for the most part I enjoy discussing them.

Like I said, I don't know. I always try to be rational in the study, even when I see someone post something that drives me crazy. I know sometimes I get passionate, and I suppose sometimes I can be abrasive with my positions, but I've always tried to stay within the limitations of TOS and listen to Mod warnings.

Has it really gotten so bad? Are the Mods really at their wits ends? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just asking. Maybe I just missed some posts in there somewhere, or maybe they were in threads I didn't read, but it seems like a lot of people are calling it quits on the study lately, and I guess I just don't understand the furor.


-Rob

 

[Sukerkin]

Simple answer, TM, Yes, it is that bad.

I log in at dinner time at work and Moderate for 3/4 hour. I log in when I get home from work and Moderate for anything between 3 and 6 hours depending on how thick the **** is lying.

Where am I all that time? In the Study, trying to get people to grasp the simple concept that it is possible to violently disagree with someones views whilst still acting like a reasonable well adjusted adult and not a child of twelve who can't have their own way. As with law enforcement, it always seems to be the same people who keep rising to the top of the "naughty step" list too. Logging in day after day and seeing that half of what I'm looking at in New Posts is RTM's (lots from the 'usual suspects') gets a little soul destroying.

Every once in a while I might actually get to post on something I'm interested in and have a conversation with another grown up but mostly it's trying to get people to sit down and behave, hoovering up the mess when that doesn't work and discussing with my colleagues what to do about the latest train wreck.

Because there is an extremely fair, codified, hierarchy of regulations about how to deal with wrong-doers, it can take a very long time indeed before someone earns themselves a suspension. That just adds up to a never reducing mountain that we on Staff shovel at each and every day. In all honesty it feels like policing an infinite street full of drunken chavs.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Right.

Suppose I'll weigh in then.

As a former moderator of another forum( Sukerkin knows whereof I speak as he and i first "met" there), I know firsthand the amount of work that goes into moderating a forum of the size and scope of MT. That's partly why I try never to give anyone cause to warn me over something because I've been there once myself, done the moderating job before and , frankly, would NEVER do it again.

So it isn't always obvious whether the mod staff are having a tough time or not, but it's always busier than it looks, trust me.

At this other forum, the topic of banning political discussion came up one year.

I was strongly enough opposed to it that I was prepared to resign if it were enacted.

It turns out that it didn't.

Over the next year that followed even I was enough disgusted at the behavior of enough members that a year later I was one of those who most strongly *supported* such a ban.

That year it turns out it went through.

And yes, it got quieter. *Temporarily*.

But we had no less headaches by the end of that year because the nature of the beast is that politics brushes against almost all other topics.

But that also, in hindsight, marked the decline of that forum. We lost something, a lot of sense of "community", the place just wasn't the same or as friendly.

See that's what people miss in this age where conflict is considered "bad"--it's part of socializing. I had to learn this the hard way myself, relatively later in my life, but really, look at two people who settle an issue in court, versus two who slap some gloves on and have at in the gym or backyard.

I bet most of us can guess which pair of people is more likely to take some relieved breaths, say "Okay, we had it out, it's over now" then go for drinks.

The only people who walk away "happy" or the "winners" in the courtroom are the attorneys.

Hell, even back when duelling was legal, they were not always, or later even *mostly*, to the death--in many cases the "first drawn blood" was enough, "honor" was "satisfied", and sometimes you even became friends.

Even back in my childhood--we were the last generation to escape PC meddling--once you beat, or even just fought, someone, you became friends, or at least the antagonism stopped.

Add to this that different parts of the country( this is a largely US community but even in Europe or the UK there are, I'm sure, similar regional differences as we have here because that's human nature), there will be those who've grown up with completely different attitudes to conflict. There's a concept in the Southern states of a "friendly fight" that doesn't exist in my native New England, for example. Where I was from, fighting somebody was to put them down in self defense and for no other purpose. In other places it's part of welcoming one into another group.

Imagine the mixed signals on an internet forum from just that difference in attitude alone. It'd be rather like the verbal/text equivalent of (Poster #1) "What's the matter, boy, you yella?(poster#2)*SNAPCRACKLEPOPMANGLEHARM*( crowd) "Dude, WTF?!?!?!?!!"

Which, now that we come to it, isn't that sort of miscommunication and differing views of conflict the very reason we're having this discussion to start with?

It was like when I went to the 2007 Meet and Greet and I met Terry the first time( Hi Terry ). I was struck by his outspokenness because , where I grew up, speaking in a loud tone of voice that everyone could always hear would in many cases be considered bad manners, however, in Texas, where Terry is from, that's just the normal way of talking--why say something if you haven't the conviction to *SAY* it, was the "vibe" I've gotten from one or two Texans since I met Terry and down there, that's normal. And Terry's an awesome guy.

If worse comes to worst, you have the ability that we, on the other forum never did of simply restricting certain posters' access to certain boards. In this way, no innocent posters are affected.


Hope you found something of use in my little ramble here. After considering it, my vote, were it to exist, would be to keep it open and prune offending branches when necessary.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I can only answer for me here.
My martial arts training effectively ended in 2005. So, it's hard for me to participate in most of the site. Politics, social areas, those I can still involve in, and after the last few years immersion, especially after the 08 election, I find myself beyond burned out, apathetic is more like it. I don't care, much, on alot of things, and that bothers me. So, my stepping back is to let my fried "caring" cells heal. I'm still tossing up the odd topic, and will be popping in here and there, but I need time to catch my breath.

Now, that said, yes, some of the mods are tired, and some are burning out. Same reasons. Seems I remember the same thing happening in 2005 after the 04 election as well. Some of them spend more time on here, than I do, and I'm on 5-6 hrs a day. Much of the "burn out sources" isn't what you see in public, it's from the discussions in the back, the back and forths with members. Most people get a cool down note, they cool down. Some though, you'd think we'd just tried to ram the DeathStar up their bums, after first covering it in hot sauce and salt. Some folks think that a couple of stripes on a bit of fabric, a couple of bits of wall candy, or a fancy title means that they can treat us like dirt. They are beyond indignant when we inform them it doesn't.

I've had so called martial arts masters threaten me with bodily harm and legal action over a fracking "play nice" warning that was posted in a thread they were involved in, if you can believe that bit of stupidity. I had another one call me up and run off a string of profanity so rude, even the redist of rednecks would be ashamed. I've had another couple of our banned "winners" roast me on another site, and bring my family into the mix, defame my character, call me a tax cheat, and imply worse. It gets a bit, old, fast.

Over an internet forum. Don't get me wrong, I think MT is the best damn forum there is, but at the end of the day, it's a forum. It ain't gold plated or diamond encrusted. It's a BBS.

One I've made a lot of good aquaintances, a few close friends, and a few dear enemies with, and made a few bucks on, with and through.

So, my intent with MT is to keep it going, until I can't. At that point, I'll do what I can to see it continues. More money's always good, but we're not going to shut down tomorrow, or go pay only tomorrow if you don't. It'd just be appreciated if ya did.

So, there's my bit. Or part at least.

As to staff burnout, it's not because of just the study. Life happens. Interests change, real life gets in the way. So, I just need to figure out how to give them breaks, keep things going, and make sure I get enough R&R too.

Y'all help us out. Keep it civil, stop ripping into one another when things go boom. Don't give us a hard time over little things. A wrist slap is a wrist slap, so understand our intent isn't to run anyone off, but keep things as open as we can within reason. Problem? Report it, then shut up and let us handle it. Problem with staff?

Call 716-XXX-XXXX, ask for Bob. That's me. 10am-8pm any day of the week, if I'm not there, leave a number and I will call you back ASAP (US/Canada only).

How many board owners put up their number and say call me? AFAIK, I'm the only one.

Y'all help us, we help you, we have a great site, and we can all have fun.

k?

 

[terryl965]

Andy Thank you for remembering me and I am load and very load at times but it is my nature. I am the nicest guy and will do what I can for everybody. Bob keep trucking and hopefully people will change, not likely though. I love MT and the people I have meet though this site.

 

[Gordon Nore]

...trying to get people to grasp the simple concept that it is possible to violently disagree with someones views whilst still acting like a reasonable well adjusted adult and not a child of twelve who can't have their own way.

...and you do that very well, Mark.

Bob et al.

I understand the stresses associated with both moderating and participating on a forum. Lashing out at someone or his/her opinion happens in a way online that it might not in person. Some combination of martial arts training, social propriety, what-have-you, probably informs everyone here that we don't smack each other in the head when speaking face to face because we differ. Online tends to be a different story. Read comments on any YouTube video, and The Study looks comparatively staid.

However, if staff are stretched to the point that they can't simply enjoy being here, the outcome is pretty clear. Nobody likes feeling used-up, whether there is a pay cheque or not. Bob's description of being threatened legally or with acts of violence makes me sick. What makes me sicker is that it doesn't come as a surprise.

Among the options discussed:

Study for supporting members only. No. I threw my $20 onto the collection plate for a tiny bit of convenience and just to help out. I don't expect more access to discussion for having donated a few bucks.

Un-moderated Study. Un-moderated equates, to me, as "no rules." I may be off on that, but I assume everything blows up all the time. Threads might or might not get locked.

Beyond that I don't know what to say. I don't like seeing people abused.

Please all do what is best for you.

 

[Twin Fist]

well, gee, here is a thought, everyone grow up, get a thicker skin, and learn to use the "ignore list" feature.

no, seriously.

if someone bugs you with thier crap? ignore them. if they are constantly spewing stuff that gets under your skin? ignore them.

it's pretty simple, and no one has to go behind everyone trying to clean up poop....

 

[jks9199]

No rules does not equal fun for all. I think it was Larry Niven -- but I'm not at all certain! -- who wrote a short story set in a "freedom park" where most of the normal rules didn't apply, so long as nobody was hurt. Remote drones monitored the park, and stunned those who were harming others. So, nudity, running wild, you name it -- it was OK in the park. Until the day the monitor drones went down... and at first, everyone had a ball. Until it went bad, and someone started chasing the pretty young thing enjoying dancing in so little that it made nothing look overdressed. Anarchy wasn't the same thing as freedom...

Which is a very long winded way to say that no rules in the study would not be fun, for long.

Pay only? Not sure that it'd really make a difference. The folks who cause most of the problems could still pony up the cash and get in, if they wanted. And I don't think it'd do much to pull in many more supporting memberships. There'd be a few, but not more than a relative handful. Maybe more in heavy political seasons...

Now, one comment on moderating. Warning -- it's might be kind of lengthy.

I don't think there's a better moderated board of any sort available. This is one of the very few that I regularly participate in. Mods here generally bend over backwards and do some things that would make a yogi jealous to be fair. There's not a mod here who's afraid to tell another mod that they're too wrapped up in the issue -- and there's not a mod here who won't step back if they realize they can't be objective. You just don't see that happen often.

Most mod work here is done in a very low key manner, with nudges and hints. When you see a mod post suggesting a way to do something or discuss something... that's often all it takes. Most folks just need the occasional reminder that the rules do exist and are enforced, and they'll go with the problem. Some folks demand a little more attention... as do some topics. They get public warnings that don't single anyone out. Most of the singling out -- that's done in private. You (the members at large) generally won't see that happen... A very few are suspended or banned.

And the policy here is to avoid removing CONTENT at almost any cost. Doesn't matter if the mods agree or disagree. Doesn't matter if yanking the offending post would reduce problems as new people find it and reply or react. You can't get much fairer or more open than that, I don't think. I know I've had posts removed without comment in another forum; I presume a mod there took exception.

I've also been a mod-equivalent somewhere that the volunteer team wasn't well supported by the bosses. I've quit -- and that forum has been taken over by the trolls, who drove a lot of valuable contributors away. (The business that ran that board isn't doing so good, either.)

In sum -- I don't think you'll find another board where the mod staff is as fair or supportive of the members rights to different views. The only issue is how you choose to express those views. Avoid personal attacks, avoid hate speech, and spend some time learning the copyright and profanity rules -- and that'll eliminate something like 75% of the mod team's work. And let us focus on building the site, getting more activity, and making it a generally better time for all!

 

[jarrod]

speaking as a fairly high posting non-supporting member...i just don't have $20 to kick around at the moment (pathetic, i know). i'd hate to be locked out because some folks can't keep their cool.

jf

 

[BrandonLucas]

I agree with both Jarrod and TF on this one...

I'm pretty much broke at this point. I post on this forum while I'm at work, during the times when it's slow. I don't have the funds to pay to post on an internet forum...not with all of the other things I owe.

If the decision is made in that light, then, of course, I have no other option than to go along with it, but I just can't justify paying for a forum that I post on at work.

That being said, I haven't received any "formal" warnings, but I have gotten out of line once or twice...but it's never been anything so far out there that I should be banned. I understand there are topics that can be more heated than others, but honestly, when it comes to the point of posting in a threatening way, isn't that pretty childish?

And how would it be fair for anyone else who like to post in the study who behaves (for the most part, anyway) to have to pay to post, when the problem lies with other posters?

I don't know how hard it is to moderate a forum. I've never been involved with anything like that. But it seems that people should be mature enough to post without getting quite so heated about topics.

 

[harlan]

If only it worked like that. My limited experience moderating another forum has convinced me that consistent moderation is the key to retaining an atmosphere and 'mature' membership. Floating non-MA related, and controversial topics (The Study) is a 'make or break' aspect to a forum. Personally, I think it should be 'invite only' (no thanks...I'm not angling for one), or hidden (like 'E-B*do').

I don't know how hard it is to moderate a forum. I've never been involved with anything like that. But it seems that people should be mature enough to post without getting quite so heated about topics.

 

[Steve]

Are there currently any "members only" forums?

 

[Sukerkin]

Yes. I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what is being proposed is adding the Study to that 'list'.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Do you mean here, or elsewhere?

Here, Supporting Members have access to a couple extra forums.
On Kenpotalk the school instructors and owners have private areas.
There's also private women only areas on both sites.

 

[Steve]

Thanks guys. I guess I should look into what I paid for. I just sent you the money because I've been leeching for a while. Haven't even really considered whether there were benefits... other than the nifty badge!

Edit: I understood that this is what was being considered, but it just occurred to me that there might be other areas already.

 

[jks9199]

Here's a link to a quick, nifty list of the benefits (and costs) of being a supporting member: Supporting Memberships.

 

[Tames D]

Thanks guys. I guess I should look into what I paid for. I just sent you the money because I've been leeching for a while. Haven't even really considered whether there were benefits... other than the nifty badge!

Edit: I understood that this is what was being considered, but it just occurred to me that there might be other areas already.

I didn't get a badge

 

[Tames D]

btw, I voted to leave it open to everyone.