On Self "Training" In Martial Arts

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Down here we just call that good old common sense.

I would hope that it is. But I've heard people argue "If someone's attacking me, I'm not stopping till I know it's finished", "I'll kill anyone trying to kill me", "You have to beat the attacker/bully up so badly that he's scared even be near you in the future."

 

[Tez3]

I would hope that it is. But I've heard people argue "If someone's attacking me, I'm not stopping till I know it's finished", "I'll kill anyone trying to kill me", "You have to beat the attacker/bully up so badly that he's scared even be near you in the future."

I've heard that as well, it's really best that the instructor doesn't tell people that or worst write it somewhere like social media because if one of their students does go too far and it all goes pear shaped, they'll say 'well my instructor told me it was what you do', and then the instructor is up for incitement etc.

 

[dvcochran]

I would hope that it is. But I've heard people argue "If someone's attacking me, I'm not stopping till I know it's finished", "I'll kill anyone trying to kill me", "You have to beat the attacker/bully up so badly that he's scared even be near you in the future."

There is a 'value' in that kind of thinking but it requires the whole story to be known.
For example, if it is the repeated bully scenario, it may take a 'beating' the bullying to end.
If it is a dangerously physical attack where the person knows the attacker is going to keep coming, it could spiral into a 'final' event.

From a SD mentality this is a valid but 'last ditch effort' approach. If an untrained person somehow gets the upper hand they should take advantage of it. Such as grabbing a skillet and whacking the assailant. More often than not this is going to take multiple blows. It is never like we see it on the television where one tap and the guy goes down.

Fear can be either a powerful ally or enemy. If it becomes a scenario where only one person is going to walk away, the decision has already been made.

If I am missing your point, please explain.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

What would be dubious? I said you should know the law on self defence in this country before teaching self defence, I said nothing about joining any group or teaching the law, just knowing it so you don't go off telling people they can kick an unconscious person in the head.

You should, but should doesnt translate to legally required to do so. The stated liability would be dubious for the reasons i presented previously also.

 

[Dirty Dog]

AED's have been added ubeqiously to first aid training as far as i can see.

When you butcher words, you don't make yourself look good. Stick to words you understand. Seriously.

If its a longer course and covers defibs,

An AED and a defibrillator are not the same thing.

i belive good companies would teach you both AED and manual, if its not a bespoke course anyway where you only use AED's or vice versa.

Yet another case in which you talk out your rectum without having the slightest idea what you're saying. People like you, who are too ignorant to even understand just how ignorant they are, terrify me. If one of my loved ones is in the midst of a cardiac arrest, please stay the hell away from them. They will stand a much better chance of survival if they're assisted by someone who at least knows that they're a layman.
It doesn't matter what you "belive [sic]". You cannot learn to read a strip and properly use a defibrillator in a few hours.

Personally speaking i would seek out courses that cover both.

Might as well just stick your finger in a light socket.

 

[Dirty Dog]

C'mon; you have never popped a blister and snipped the skin off later?

Please don't do this. If a blister pops on its own, feel free to remove the dead tissue. But don't pop it. The blister protects the underlying tissues.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

An AED and a defibrillator are not the same thing.

Well having done a lookskie to confirm this*. I never stated that, and a AED is a defibulator.
*What the acronym AED means.

Yet another case in which you talk out your rectum without having the slightest idea what you're saying. People like you, who are too ignorant to even understand just how ignorant they are, terrify me. If one of my loved ones is in the midst of a cardiac arrest, please stay the hell away from them. They will stand a much better chance of survival if they're assisted by someone who at least knows that they're a layman.
It doesn't matter what you "belive [sic]". You cannot learn to read a strip and properly use a defibrillator in a few hours.

Well, firstly. I wouldnt help you so i couldnt be damned nor is it any skin off my back.

Secondly, please quote WHERE EXACTLY i stated you could or could not learn to use a defibulator in a few hours? The statement was, as quoted. I made no statement in the quoted message to training time for them. And i have indeed seen a course cover both AED's and manual ones, or just others. Tez has gone over how AED's in my country are of the type to walk you through it and as they seem to be included in low level first aid courses they clearly arent the most complicated of things. (shortest courses avalible)

Might as well just stick your finger in a light socket.

How else do you propose one installs them?

 

[Cynik75]

Q: How to train martial arts alone?
A: Pop you blisters.

 

[skribs]

Yet another case in which you talk out your rectum without having the slightest idea what you're saying. People like you, who are too ignorant to even understand just how ignorant they are, terrify me.

This is what terrifies me. He loves to give advice to people, and a lot of that advice is horribly wrong and would get them hurt.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Q: How to train martial arts alone?

I didnt propose you did/have to. I think you need at least a partner if your intrest is anything to do with fighting. You can do kata or what have you alone or without a tradtional school.

 

[Tez3]

You should, but should doesnt translate to legally required to do so. The stated liability would be dubious for the reasons i presented previously also.

I never said it was a legal requirement or even that it should be, just good practice.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I never said it was a legal requirement or even that it should be, just good practice.

That i would second, i was just relaying that i didnt do such a thing as well.

Edit: Upon re reading it was probbly ambious wording on both sides for this "issue".

 

[Tez3]

Tez has gone over how AED's in my country are of the type to walk you through it and as they seem to be included in low level first aid courses they clearly arent the most complicated of things. (shortest courses avalible)

Do not bring me into this, what is installed in the UK is something that saves lives because it's designed for the layman to use. It isn't something you need to go on a course for, it's only mentioned on first aid courses in respect of 'dial 999, tell the operator which service you require, when put through to the ambulance service they will ask you certain questions, then they will dispatch a paramedic and an ambulance ( we have 'flying' paramedic on motorbikes or fast cars who aim to get there before an ambulance) will be dispatched in the meantime they stay on the line to talk you through what is needed, if it's the defib, they will tell you the number to unlock your local one and as well as the instructors from the machine they check with you, operators stay on the line until the paramedic or the ambulance get there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In hindsight, we probbly should not have used team sport anologies for this. But, for the last point, their skill level doesnt realy matter. if they arent trying to do it proffesionally its of no consiquence. If they want to compete proffesionally well, if they decided since school all the coaching etc would be provided especially if they get scooped up by a team earlier on.If not they would seek out such instruction. The base of information for a sport would be on average higher than not as people would literally practice doing said sport every day until they retire or decide to switch careers. Thats the issue with a sport analysis of this.


Now to apply this to self defence where (for sake of argument) the average amount of information would be lower? Would coming in with a base of information and some practice, even if it only builds your atributes be suffcient? More than likely. It would be the comparision of something over nothing.

Bad habits also seems subjective and based on your goals. A boxing coach can only relay what is bad for the sport of boxing, so fourth.


I dont deny its more individalistic, but thats not good or bad. Its based soley on the individuals abilities.

Bad habits aren't entirely subjective, if we're talking about being able to use the techniques in a fight. A good puch will be effective. A bad punch may not be, and may even lead to self-injury, either in practice (bad enough) or during actual use (worst case, if it's SD).

So, could someone learn to punch without a coach? Sure. But they won't know how well until they actually apply it somewhere. Can they learn to punch a competent target without a coach? Sure, if they have a competent target to practice against (which they won't know if their target is someone with the same training approach).

The problem is that, without some outside influence, you've got beginners trying to figure out whether something is good enough or not. And they don't have the information and perception (pattern recognition) to make that judgment. I've seen many, many students get a year in and suddenly understand something they've been told many times. I've seen many who, after a signficant amount of training suddenly ask the instructor why they've let them do something wrong for so long, only to be told, "I've told you many times that you were doing it wrong - you just didn't understand enough yet to hear it."

Is it possible for someone to get good without help? Yes. Is it likely? No. They would be an exception. In most cases, folks who are good at fighting without training are good because of some inherent development (size, aggression, etc.) that they would have with or without training.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Do not do self training its not good you have to fight to be a fighter you have to be train to karate to learn karate

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Bad habits aren't entirely subjective, if we're talking about being able to use the techniques in a fight. A good puch will be effective. A bad punch may not be, and may even lead to self-injury, either in practice (bad enough) or during actual use (worst case, if it's SD).

So, could someone learn to punch without a coach? Sure. But they won't know how well until they actually apply it somewhere. Can they learn to punch a competent target without a coach? Sure, if they have a competent target to practice against (which they won't know if their target is someone with the same training approach).

The problem is that, without some outside influence, you've got beginners trying to figure out whether something is good enough or not. And they don't have the information and perception (pattern recognition) to make that judgment. I've seen many, many students get a year in and suddenly understand something they've been told many times. I've seen many who, after a signficant amount of training suddenly ask the instructor why they've let them do something wrong for so long, only to be told, "I've told you many times that you were doing it wrong - you just didn't understand enough yet to hear it."

Is it possible for someone to get good without help? Yes. Is it likely? No. They would be an exception. In most cases, folks who are good at fighting without training are good because of some inherent development (size, aggression, etc.) that they would have with or without training.

See i agree with some points and dont others. The degree of precision for the punch can be argued. You have cited what i would second would be a objectively bad punch. But a subjective example would be what plenty of TMA styles do and have you drop your hands to your belt after each punch, without correction (really early on) that would become a habit that can become a issue. Now if thats good or bad would entirely be on you. There is also the issue of you not being able to do a "perfect" punch in reality. As for breakage, if its SD, that shouldnt be much of a issue if its fighting for your life, your adrelenine should help you through that one and you would keep going until physically unable to, unless you adopt a defeatist attitude through it and give up. Not ideal if you can avoid it, but even if you can do it right, you could smakc something or clip their skull in a scuffle, its not a life threatning injury to most people now days. (as far as i know)


As for the outside influence, define what you consier it? does it need to be a person physically there? Could it be somone reviewing videos? Could it be a well detailed book/video series? As far as i am concerend, from scratch can be done, but as you can access a base of information, the more realstic and useful way is accessing some form of information and going from that.

Last point, i am proposing "training", just not in the usual way.

 

[Daibakuhatsu]

Jumping in from lurking...
Let me just say I did a lot of self training before I picked up Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and several other styles which I've done over the years.
The formal training advanced me by leaps and bounds that I never could have gotten alone.
But without that self training in my past, there are a handful of times when people would have beat my !@# six ways from Sunday and hurt others too. The sheer difficulty of self training and the hours of researching different arts, also allowed me to better evaluate schools and decide what was right for me.

What was I supposed to do living out in the boonies? Not train anything?

If you're yet untrained and have no instructors available - take responsibility and do something! Get some strength & conditioning out of the way. Read books and watch DVDs for research so you know where to train. Drill some basic movement patterns that you're going to need later. Don't just wait like somebody with no discipline.

Especially if the goal is self defense. Met so many ranked martial artists who I wouldn't count on in a fight it's ridiculous at this point.

 

[skribs]

But a subjective example would be what plenty of TMA styles do and have you drop your hands to your belt after each punch, without correction (really early on) that would become a habit that can become a issue. Now if thats good or bad would entirely be on you.

Okay, so don't go to a TMA school. Go take boxing classes, or Muay Thai, or wrestling, or any of those arts that don't have the training practices you don't like.

Or train those arts for more than 3 months so you actually learn why they teach you that way. For example, I wouldn't pull my hand to my hip after a punch. But if I had ahold of your arm or sleeve, pulling my hand to my hip would pull you off-balance. But you have to get past the basics first in order to learn it.

There is also the issue of you not being able to do a "perfect" punch in reality.

Then any training, whether self-done or instructor-led, is a waste of time. Boxers shouldn't bother training their punches, because it won't be perfect. That's the level of logic in what you just said. It is so wrong I don't even know where to begin trying to deconstruct it.

As for breakage, if its SD, that shouldnt be much of a issue if its fighting for your life, your adrelenine should help you through that one and you would keep going until physically unable to, unless you adopt a defeatist attitude through it and give up. Not ideal if you can avoid it, but even if you can do it right, you could smakc something or clip their skull in a scuffle, its not a life threatning injury to most people now days. (as far as i know)

This is completely wrong. Martial arts teaches you not just how to inflict damage on your opponent, but how to prevent that damage from being done to you. That's why we keep our guard up in striking arts, why we train defense against submissions and pins in grappling arts, and why we learn the proper form of techniques so we don't hurt ourselves. What you're proposing shows that you have no clue what real fighting is.

 

[skribs]

Jumping in from lurking...
Let me just say I did a lot of self training before I picked up Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and several other styles which I've done over the years.
The formal training advanced me by leaps and bounds that I never could have gotten alone.
But without that self training in my past, there are a handful of times when people would have beat my !@# six ways from Sunday and hurt others too. The sheer difficulty of self training and the hours of researching different arts, also allowed me to better evaluate schools and decide what was right for me.

What was I supposed to do living out in the boonies? Not train anything?

If you're yet untrained and have no instructors available - take responsibility and do something! Get some strength & conditioning out of the way. Read books and watch DVDs for research so you know where to train. Drill some basic movement patterns that you're going to need later. Don't just wait like somebody with no discipline.

Especially if the goal is self defense. Met so many ranked martial artists who I wouldn't count on in a fight it's ridiculous at this point.

There is a big difference between your situation and the OP's. Your situation can be summarized as "I have no other options, so this is the best option available to me."

His situation can be summarized as "I don't want to go to class."

 

[Daibakuhatsu]

His situation can be summarized as "I don't want to go to class."

But what are you basing this off of, that he said?