omg! a 4 year in training 3rd dan came in yesterday...

[dancingalone]

Laughable only because you are applying your Goju-ryu standard to a non-Goju-ryu art. And in Korea the overwhelming majority of practitioners are children. Very few adults practice taekwondo in Korea and the ones that do, tend to be poomsae or kyorugi competitors.

....

I don't think it has anything to do with the idea of a one year 1st poom/dan. I think it has to do with the fact that in most dojang in Korea, it is loaded with kids, that it is seen as a kid activity, in much the same way soccer is seen as a childhood activity in the US. You don't see too many adults doing soccer here and the ones that do, are competitors on teams or in leagues. But for most, soccer is a childhood activity.

.....

I agree that lay people are important in the sense that they represent future students. But I do not think that they are so important that we should change what we do to fit with their stereotyped misconceptions of what is or isn't a black belt.

These points all approach the same issue from different direction. To me, it's a matter of rigor and the inherent respect gained both internally and externally from following a difficult path. It's a bit like the 2 year associate's degree in the US versus a full bachelors degree from a US university. They both have their usages, but there's no question which one is more highly regarded by anyone you'd care to ask.

Black belts in some martial arts like BJJ are respected because it is known they are difficult to earn. It is not regarded as a activity primarily for children. I would simply like to see a measure of the same rigor applied to TKD.

Not so odd, if you consider that Funakoshi Sensei was a progressive thinker who made radical changes in his day and understood that the Karate of his day must give way to the Karate of his students. He changed the name of the art, changed the order of the kata, changed the name of the kata, adopted a uniform, a dan rank system, got rid of the weapons, so why wouldn't he adopt and embrace free sparring, something that Kano Sensei, a person that he openly admired, also adopted?

I still don't believe he embraced free sparring. Like I said, there are references all over the internet stating the contrary. I need to find the interview from Nakayama stating as such as that seems to be the best source in my mind, but I was able to find this article which was published in Dragon Times, the forerunner of Classical Fighting Arts, which I hope satisfies some degree of scholarly work.

http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-funakoshi1.html

" It was another 23 years before the second edition of 'Kyohan' was published. That was in 1958, the year after Funakoshi's death. Nonetheless, I imagine he did most of the work involved in the revision of the book. Because of Funakoshi's advanced age, the techniques in this edition were demonstrated by younger experts, primarily Shigeru Egami. By that time they were doing more or less the Shotokan style that we know today. The change from Gichin Funakoshi's original 1922 karate to modern Shotokan was a gradual process, but in many respects the style was there by the mid-1930s among some of the younger trainees. The change arose from several sources: Funakoshi himself, his son Yoshitaka and his associates, from a general infusion of new blood into the art and over the last three decades the contribution of the Japan Karate Association and its instructors. But if we go back a little to the 1935 edition of, "Karate-do Kyohan" it seems to me that Funakoshi sensei's personal karate did not go much beyond there, that is a karate based primarily on the practice of kata, augmented by yaku soku (prearranged) kumite and makiwara (striking board) practice. Funakoshi did not care for jiyu-kumite (free sparring) and even in that era he drew some criticism from other (Japanese) teachers for what they saw as his overemphasis on kata. Such teachers were familiar with the free-play of judo and kendo and felt that something of that sort should be introduced to karate. That was a new idea to Funakoshi and, because of long established habits of mind, something that he had difficulty coming to terms with."

Sensei Patrick McCarthy talks about the Butokukai in his books "Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts. What he says is that titles such as renshi, kyoshi, etc. were given to the Okinawan pioneers, in part to legitimize Karate; but he doesn't state that dan ranks were given to their students.

Indeed, they weren't initially. But the holders of those teaching titles eventually granted dan ranks to their students with Miyagi being a notable exception.

 

[andyjeffries]

Exactly the same here in Australia. Heaps of adults play soccer, my brother was playing to a decent level until he was 34 and only stopped playing because he went to the UK where he has hooked up with a team over there. Actually its amazing how many adults play competitive sport here well into their 40's and 50's. One of the 6th dans at my club is 53 and still plays competitive rugby league, but thats just crazy.

Rugby players do generally seem to play much older than other sports. I know quite a few rugby players of that sort of age. Very weird, it's quite a rough sport...

 

[granfire]

Rugby players do generally seem to play much older than other sports. I know quite a few rugby players of that sort of age. Very weird, it's quite a rough sport...

but probably one were old and sneaky still gets you by...

 

[andyjeffries]

I'd venture that adults playing 'football' in Europe and the UK is like adults playing softball in the US. There are organized leagues and large companies will sometimes have a team, but these adults are still the exception and not the rule.

It does sound similar, but adults certainly aren't the exception playing football over here really. One of the reasons is that in school most children rotate the sport they're doing (for example at my school we had Rugby for a term, Cricket for a term, Athletics for a term - football was an occasional thing). Other schools may differ so they get Football for a term or maybe even Football once per week. Given the amount of adults that play weekly for their company, with their friends or for a pub team - I'd say it's potentially just as big for adults as children.

Aside from friendly pickup games, adults playing ball sports in any organized fashion are definitely the exception. Ball sports are pretty much for kids, teens, and college students. After that, the drop off is pretty sharp.

That's definitely different over here.

For example, in my town (est 80,000 people) has there is a Sunday League that has 5 divisions, each division having about 10 teams. That doesn't include all the 5-a-side leagues (one of them run by Stevenage Borough FC our local professional team) and people just playing in fun games each week with groups of friends. And this just relates to our small town that doesn't have any "top flight" football teams playing here - in those places the people are generally much more in to football.

Definitely sounds bigger than it sounds on your side of the pond.

 

[puunui]

These points all approach the same issue from different direction. To me, it's a matter of rigor and the inherent respect gained both internally and externally from following a difficult path. It's a bit like the 2 year associate's degree in the US versus a full bachelors degree from a US university. They both have their usages, but there's no question which one is more highly regarded by anyone you'd care to ask.

I associate a 1st Dan to a high school diploma, something that is attainable by all. How highly regarded are high school graduates in the educational scheme of things, especially when compared to those who have bachelor's masters or doctorate degrees, not to mention those who have gone on to do post doctorate work?

I still don't believe he embraced free sparring.

Not only did he embrace the idea of competition, he stated that he advocated its use for ranking purposes. Here is a quote from the translation "Karate Jutsu" by Funakoshi Sensei, written in I think 1922:

"Ranking

The reason that until now there has been no assigning of ranks in karate is that it has not been possible to have shiai (competitive matches) as in judo or kendo. This is because of the devastating power of karate techniques; a strike to a vital point could immediately prove fatal. Likewise, in times past swordsmanship was taught only through kata since a shiai, whether using real swords or wooden swords, was always fought at the risk of one's life. Subsequently, today's face masks and wrist guards were developed, and although this brought about a certain amount of degradation of kendo, it allowed it to become that much closer to a sport rather than a martial art. With continuing research it is not unfeasible that as in judo or kendo our karate, too, might incorporate a grading system through the adoption of protective gear and the banning of attacks to vital points.

In fac, I believe that it is important to move in that direction. I must emphasize that I am not refuting the viability of grading a person's level through observing his performance of kata, his hand and leg movements, and questioning him on the meaning of techniques. The problem is that in the past one's level was publicly recognized according to the reputation and influence of one's teacher or one's number of years of practice, placing the assessment on rather shaky grounds."

 

[dancingalone]

I don't disagree, and I was not implying that football is an easy game to pick up either.

By the time I got to high school, I had played enough football that if a pick up game was to be had, I could play and inspite of being the underweight tall skinny guy, I was usually not the last one picked. Football had also been a fairly regular part of PE in elementary and middle school. Any difficulty that I had had in learning how to play the game I had had prior to middle school.

I could throw a ball correctly. I could catch a ball correctly. In short, I was proficient in the basics of football, not a good player, and certainly not good enough to have made the team by any means. There are many proficient drivers on the road. But racing cars requires more than just driving proficiency. Likewise, playing football on a high school, college, or pro team requires more than just proficiency.

However, the vast majority of taekwondoin are not competing. They take class and go home and hopefully practice. It is a much smaller group that actually competes.

Daniel

Well, here's the thing. If you got your BB in one year as a kid, poom distinction or not, I question what you learned exactly. Good to be an effective 'driver' even for normal transportation needs to use your driving analogy? I don't know about that.

 

[dancingalone]

I associate a 1st Dan to a high school diploma, something that is attainable by all. How highly regarded are high school graduates in the educational scheme of things, especially when compared to those who have bachelor's masters or doctorate degrees, not to mention those who have gone on to do post doctorate work?

Yet how many kids earn high school diplomas even if we accept that as an equivalent level of achievement? And in one year at that?

I think we'll never see eye to eye on this. I think a 1st dan should be more like a 4 year university degree with correlating distinction of physical skill compared to the colored belt ranks.

Not only did he embrace the idea of competition, he stated that he advocated its use for ranking purposes. Here is a quote from the translation "Karate Jutsu" by Funakoshi Sensei, written in I think 1922:

"Ranking

The reason that until now there has been no assigning of ranks in karate is that it has not been possible to have shiai (competitive matches) as in judo or kendo. This is because of the devastating power of karate techniques; a strike to a vital point could immediately prove fatal. Likewise, in times past swordsmanship was taught only through kata since a shiai, whether using real swords or wooden swords, was always fought at the risk of one's life. Subsequently, today's face masks and wrist guards were developed, and although this brought about a certain amount of degradation of kendo, it allowed it to become that much closer to a sport rather than a martial art. With continuing research it is not unfeasible that as in judo or kendo our karate, too, might incorporate a grading system through the adoption of protective gear and the banning of attacks to vital points.

In fac, I believe that it is important to move in that direction. I must emphasize that I am not refuting the viability of grading a person's level through observing his performance of kata, his hand and leg movements, and questioning him on the meaning of techniques. The problem is that in the past one's level was publicly recognized according to the reputation and influence of one's teacher or one's number of years of practice, placing the assessment on rather shaky grounds."

Thanks. I'll have to come back with more ammo later to try to argue with you on this. It is known that adding competition was an aim of the Buto-kai, so I am not surprised that Funakoshi would have outwardly expressed support for the idea, but I still believe he had reservations about free sparring and its possible detracting effect on karate as a martial method.

 

[puunui]

I think a 1st dan should be more like a 4 year university degree with correlating distinction of physical skill compared to the colored belt ranks.

To me, a 3rd Dan is the equivalent to a bachelor's degree.

It is known that adding competition was an aim of the Buto-kai, so I am not surprised that Funakoshi would have outwardly expressed support for the idea, but I still believe he had reservations about free sparring and its possible detracting effect on karate as a martial method.

Funakoshi Sensei had reservations about beginner engaging in free sparring, as he wrote in Karate-Do Kyokan, in the second edition, in the section entitled Free Sparring: "Beginning students must refrain at all times from heedlessly engaging in free sparring." and goes on to explain why. But in almost every book that he wrote, Funakoshi Sensei wrote about free sparring as a training method for karate. But still that does not take away from the point that he made in his first book, which is that he advocated shiai or match sparring like in judo and kendo as a method of rank determination.

 

[miguksaram]

Even today, Taekwondo and Karate utilize the belt ranking system to separate competitors of different levels. You don't see for example, green belts competing against black belts normally at karate or taekwondo tournaments. I'm sure you yourself competed in tournaments against similarly ranked opponents. In fact, people get mad when other schools sandbag and allow their students to compete in divisions lower than their actual rank.

You are correct that today competitors are pitted against similar ranked opponents. That wasn't always the case in karate tournaments. In early era of karate tournaments you would have white belts and black belts all in one division for fighting. Do Kendo/Kumdo tournaments still do this or do they break up in rank divisions?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well, here's the thing. If you got your BB in one year as a kid, poom distinction or not, I question what you learned exactly.

What you learned or how effectively you learned it?

There is not enough material in taekwondo between white belt and first dan that it couldn't be taught in a year. Whether or not it can be learned effectively in a year probably depends on the person, though I am not personally a proponent of one year black belts.

Good to be an effective 'driver' even for normal transportation needs to use your driving analogy? I don't know about that.

I didn't say good. I said proficient, and I draw a big distinction between the two.

Most people spend about a year between a learners permit and driver's ed before getting their license. They can pass a test and thus are deemed 'proficient'. After a year of driving, between driver's ed and actually driving on a learners, yes, I'd consider them proficient (as opposed to good; nobody brags, nor should they, about being proficient).

By proficient, I mean that they can work the pedals, the gear shift, know the rules of the road, and can make the car go in a straight line, steer the car, park the car, do three point turns, paralel park the car, do lane changes, etc.

That makes them proficient. A good driver is beyond being a proficient driver. A good driver is experienced in how the car handles in different weather conditions, can alter their modulation of the controls to account for variables that a merely proficient driver cannot. A good driver also is careful about what they are doing and is mindful of what they are doing. I can be technically proficient, but if I'm playing with my i-pod while driving, my results be less than good.

Beyond good, you have experienced, which is as far as most of us ever get.

Then there are advanced drivers. These are people who must drive under very demanding conditions, such as police pursuit or emergency services. Also, there is the option of taking a high performance driving course. They are offered, but very few people (comparatively, hardly any) take them.

Above these are competitive drivers, test drivers, and stunt drivers.

Want to drive to school, work, or the grovery store? Get proficient with the car and pass the driver's test, by which the state declares you proficient.

Want to be a good driver? That takes more time and regular practice.

Going back to football, I was a proficient player. But if you put me on the field with guys who had played organized football from the single digits, I'd be considered a scrub. Moreso now that I'm almost 44.

Proficiency is nothing more than the basis for being decent; A person who is not proficient in taekwondo cannot be decent at taekwondo. A person who is not decent cannot be good. A person who is not good cannot be great.

The big question is what you want your black belt to represent. If it is merely a student who can punch, kick, block, perform stances and pumse and who can spar with proficiency, then yes, you could do it in a year. If you want them to be decent (as in merely okay), you'll probably need two. Good? You're into the three to five year bracket at that point.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

What you learned or how effectively you learned it?

There is not enough material in taekwondo between white belt and first dan that it couldn't be taught in a year. Whether or not it can be learned effectively in a year probably depends on the person, though I am not personally a proponent of one year black belts.

I am curious then what passes for a 1st dan curriculum in TKD if it can be taught in 1 year. For the record, I don't consider learning the outward shell of a movement to be 'taught' something and that may represent the divide for me.

I didn't say good. I said proficient, and I draw a big distinction between the two.

....

Proficiency is nothing more than the basis for being decent; A person who is not proficient in taekwondo cannot be decent at taekwondo. A person who is not decent cannot be good. A person who is not good cannot be great.

pro·fi·cient/prəˈfiSHənt/

Noun: A person who is proficient.
Adjective: Competent or skilled in doing or using something.


Proficient does mean good, at least the way I read the definition. But the adjective used doesn't really matter.

The big question is what you want your black belt to represent. If it is merely a student who can punch, kick, block, perform stances and pumse and who can spar with proficiency, then yes, you could do it in a year. If you want them to be decent, you'll probably need two. Good? You're into the three to five year bracket at that point.

Yes, that sounds about right. Even more so if we decide to add enriching material of the close range variety, arguably stuff that was stripped out when it should never have been.

 

[miguksaram]

1 year is laughable with all due respect. I've worked with a handful of Koreans who came to the US for their advanced degrees and have decided to stay at least for a time in the US. They all have some training in TKD, a couple even had poom belts. They tell me TKD is considered a child's pursuit there and when you come of age, it's time to pursue more respectable pursuits (like school or golf!).

Obviously I'm pained by their feelings about a martial art I spent a lot of time practicing.

True but think of the way we look at baseball. For the most part we view it the same way...fun as a kid but when you come of age you need to be focusing on something more feasible.

Yet I can't help but feel that this 1 year term, if that's the standard time frame, is somewhat connected to the lack of regard they feel. In a way, I was surprised about their feelings since I thought TKD was a big source of national pride for South Koreans.

Again it goes to individual tastes. Baseball is our national pride, yet if you ask me it is boring as hell. Go over to Korea and baseball is the shiznit. They love their baseball over there. I'm sure they would be shocked to find not all Americans think the same about it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You are correct that today competitors are pitted against similar ranked opponents. That wasn't always the case in karate tournaments. In early era of karate tournaments you would have white belts and black belts all in one division for fighting. Do Kendo/Kumdo tournaments still do this or do they break up in rank divisions?

Kendo brackets you by gender, age, weight, and grade.

The last competition SEUSKF tournament that I went to broke it down along roughly these lines.

Grade is not a yudansha
Grade is shodan to nidan
Grade is sandan or higher

I haven't competed in a couple of years, so this may not be up to date.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

True but think of the way we look at baseball. For the most part we view it the same way...fun as a kid but when you come of age you need to be focusing on something more feasible.


Again it goes to individual tastes. Baseball is our national pride, yet if you ask me it is boring as hell. Go over to Korea and baseball is the shiznit. They love their baseball over there. I'm sure they would be shocked to find not all Americans think the same about it.

Then again I don't regard taekwondo as a sport or a child's activity, so it's not surprising that my feelings are different from the Koreans I met who do.

What a tangled web. It makes me want to look askance at anyone who earned a BB in Korea.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am curious then what passes for a 1st dan curriculum in TKD if it can be taught in 1 year. For the record, I don't consider learning the outward shell of a movement to be 'taught' something and that may represent the divide for me.

Ever drive with a newly licensed driver? There's your one year black belt.

I don't know about Korea, but in the US, we call these belt factories and all that that implies.

pro·fi·cient/prəˈfiSHənt/

Noun: A person who is proficient.
Adjective: Competent or skilled in doing or using something.


Proficient does mean good, at least the way I read the definition. But the adjective used doesn't really matter.

Proficient means skilled. As opposed to unskilled or having no skill. Competent, as opposed to incompetent or having no competency. A one year black belt will be skilled in the craft of taekwondo by virtue of having trained for a year.

So they are skilled; not highly skilled. They have the minimum skill to perform the "outward shell of the movements." That is what I mean by proficient.

A proficent driver can perform the outward shell of the movements. Car must stop, I depress brake. Car must go, I depress accelerator until I get to speed I want. Car must turn left, I turn wheel left until car is pointed left. I can make car go without chirping tires and I can make the car stop without screaching to a halt. I can keep the car going at a steady speed and I can turn without the car sliding. That is proficiency. Nothing more.

Thus a merely proficient driver has skill, but no depth. They cannot feel the car's gradual loss of traction as they enter a turn or the way that the weight shifts rearward with the throttle on. That is why merely proficient drivers lose it in turns on wet roads when they abruptly take their foot off of the gas and touch the brake to slow down (a phenomenon called drop throttle oversteer). They cannot modulate the throttle so as to not break traction when grip is low. And without antilock breaks, they cannot perform a panic stop without locking up the tires.

Many drivers never get much better than proficient. They make no effort to get 'good' at driving. They never make the effort to get 'better' in the areas that they are weak in. They simply become well practiced in minimal skills and see the car as an appliance that takes them from point A to point B. As soon as circumstances deviate from the norm, a merely proficient or well practiced proficient driver finds themselves suddenly out of their depth.

Yes, that sounds about right. Even more so if we decide to add enriching material of the close range variety, arguably stuff that was stripped out when it should never have been.

I cannot speak for what was stripped out or whether it was ever there in the first place. If you are doing Kukki only, there simply is not that great a volume of material (even so, I am still not a proponent of one year BBs, regardless of the norm in Korea). If you do Kukki plus, then... well you get the picture.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

You are correct that today competitors are pitted against similar ranked opponents. That wasn't always the case in karate tournaments. In early era of karate tournaments you would have white belts and black belts all in one division for fighting.

Not when I was growing up competing in karate tournaments. We were always divided by age, weight and rank. This was for kata and kumite.

 

[puunui]

Then again I don't regard taekwondo as a sport or a child's activity, so it's not surprising that my feelings are different from the Koreans I met who do.

If you purchase your friend's dojang like you said you are thinking about, I think that you have to be prepared to accept the fact that the majority of students will be children below the age of 13 and that the adults who join will not be the strapping teenager or young male in his twenties. Most likely if you get adults, they will be children who continue to train as teenagers, and the parents of younger students.

 

[miguksaram]

Not when I was growing up competing in karate tournaments. We were always divided by age, weight and rank. This was for kata and kumite.

Sensei Sharkey and I were talking about this the other day. He was telling me how that when he competed there was just one rank division and that was it. This was of course back in late 60's early 70's.

 

[dancingalone]

If you purchase your friend's dojang like you said you are thinking about, I think that you have to be prepared to accept the fact that the majority of students will be children below the age of 13 and that the adults who join will not be the strapping teenager or young male in his twenties. Most likely if you get adults, they will be children who continue to train as teenagers, and the parents of younger students.

There is a lot of truth to what you are saying. Perhaps it is a good topic for a new thread, but if I go ahead with the business opportunity, I do anticipate change on both my side as well as the students. Some of it is inevitable anyway due to a change in personality, etc, from the head instructor.

We shall see. I am still looking over the financials...

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If you purchase your friend's dojang like you said you are thinking about, I think that you have to be prepared to accept the fact that the majority of students will be children below the age of 13 and that the adults who join will not be the strapping teenager or young male in his twenties. Most likely if you get adults, they will be children who continue to train as teenagers, and the parents of younger students.

Why is this? We have no trouble getting adults to do tkd over here, Id go nuts if my class was made up of mostly children under 13. My current class has 50 students made up of about 40 adults a couple of teenagers and maybe 5 or 6 kids. Is it the way tkd is marketed over there or the fact that adults think the flashy stuff might be too hard on their bodies or is there another reason? And Dancingalone, I admire the fact that you believe a black belt should be more than just competent. If you purchase your friend's dojang please dont compromise your principles on this. I cant help but feel the reason tkd has the reputation its got is because too many people are handing out black belts in 2 years and saying "little johnny knows the basics, so now he's a black belt". Other arts have a field day at the expense of tkd because of this very attitude. If I ever start my own dojang, there will be no black belts in under 5 years thats for sure.