omg! a 4 year in training 3rd dan came in yesterday...

[puunui]

There is a lot of truth to what you are saying. Perhaps it is a good topic for a new thread, but if I go ahead with the business opportunity, I do anticipate change on both my side as well as the students. Some of it is inevitable anyway due to a change in personality, etc, from the head instructor. We shall see. I am still looking over the financials...

Are you planning on doing it as a business? Is this in a commercial space? For some reason I picture you in my head as a small club type of instructor.

 

[mango.man]

Sensei Sharkey and I were talking about this the other day. He was telling me how that when he competed there was just one rank division and that was it. This was of course back in late 60's early 70's.

I don't know how it is done in other countries, but I can tell you that my daughter's trip to Russia last year the divisions were broken down by age group and weight. Rank played no part and therefore you had everything from White to Black fighting against each other.

Sam fought a yellow belt, blue belt and a black belt in the competition. She said it was very weird as a BB with 11 + years of experience fighting a yellow belt with perhaps just a couple months, if that, of experience.

The kids were told, thats just the way that they do it in Russia.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Sam fought a yellow belt, blue belt and a black belt in the competition. She said it was very weird as a BB with 11 + years of experience fighting a yellow belt with perhaps just a couple months, if that, of experience.

The problem with separating by rank is you can have a true beginner with 3 months experience fighting as a yellow belt, against a person new to TKD but 8 years experience in karate. So the winner of the tournament in that category is a "yellow" belt with 8 years martial arts experience. So I think it ends up amounting to virtually the same thing as a yellow belt sparring a black belt.

 

[dancingalone]

Are you planning on doing it as a business? Is this in a commercial space? For some reason I picture you in my head as a small club type of instructor.

I have always run a small school intentionally so I could devote more time to the students and teach the type of martial arts I am interested in. Prior to last year, I did not even teach children.

I recently took a voluntary separation from my company. Between the severance package and my savings I don't have to worry about earning an income for a good while, but I'm at the point to where I sort of want to run my own business. I already have a nice sideline teaching basic karate as 'wellness' exercise to corporate clients. Opening a commercial dojo/dojang seems like the next logical step if I can keep the quality high enough to keep my own satisfaction level up.

My friend's dojang is a strip mall location with ample parking and lots of drop in traffic. It's a good situation to get into, but the clientele is indeed mostly children and yes they aren't exactly the type of students I have sought after previously.

 

[dancingalone]

Why is this? We have no trouble getting adults to do tkd over here, Id go nuts if my class was made up of mostly children under 13. My current class has 50 students made up of about 40 adults a couple of teenagers and maybe 5 or 6 kids. Is it the way tkd is marketed over there or the fact that adults think the flashy stuff might be too hard on their bodies or is there another reason? And Dancingalone, I admire the fact that you believe a black belt should be more than just competent. If you purchase your friend's dojang please dont compromise your principles on this. I cant help but feel the reason tkd has the reputation its got is because too many people are handing out black belts in 2 years and saying "little johnny knows the basics, so now he's a black belt". Other arts have a field day at the expense of tkd because of this very attitude. If I ever start my own dojang, there will be no black belts in under 5 years thats for sure.

I am sure some adjustment would be necessary on both sides if I buy the school. 3 years seems to be the average time frame to earn a BB there, which isn't bad, but they do have a few dan ranks who are a little 'blah' by my standard. It is a KKW affiliated school, so there is also a whole new pool for me to dive into.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I am sure some adjustment would be necessary on both sides if I buy the school. 3 years seems to be the average time frame to earn a BB there, which isn't bad, but they do have a few dan ranks who are a little 'blah' by my standard. It is a KKW affiliated school, so there is also a whole new pool for me to dive into.

Good luck with it all. Do you know the kukki curriculum? How similar is what you currently teach to kukki?

 

[dancingalone]

Good luck with it all. Do you know the kukki curriculum? How similar is what you currently teach to kukki?

I don't know any KKW material other than the 2 semesters I studied with the late Kim, Dae Shik Ph.D. at the University of Texas and also at his private dojang. I learned the first couple of Taegeuks then and his method of kicking which was admittedly a bit different from my previous TKD experience. A little self-defense too, but I'll admit I remember almost none of it.

If I bought the school, I would have to learn the material currently taught to help smooth the transition. My friend has said would not be a problem for me and I presume he is right. He does not have an Olympic type school which is a good thing, else this transaction would not even be a possibility since I know nothing about Olympic sparring.

<shrugs> I have a wealth of knowledge and experience in a variety of martial arts, even a 2nd dan in American Tae Kwon Do. But I am sure some will be offended by the idea of an outsider to the system taking over. It is what it is.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I'm butting into this one a bit late. but would like to throw in my own two cents. As I understand it (having been told by a TKD 9th dan), in Korea TKD's ranking became greatly watered down by incorperating it into the public schools. Basically dumbed down to the lowest common denominator so that earning a 1st dan over here has far more prestige and hopefully merit than it does over there. To me, the fact that the Koreans have let the system de-value is no justification that it is endorsed through the rest of the world. Even though KKW is the world headquarters for the largest branch of TKD, the gup/dan or kyu/dan system is not their creation, but rather than something that they adopted and the other arts that use the system are at least as valid as standard bearers on the subject IMO.

To me, the "quality of my product" as an instructor and school owner is the quality of my advanced students, especially my black belts. If I were to promote someone from a beginning white belt to first dan in a year or two, I wouldn't see much value in that rank. I admit that while I started with a TKD base (and hold a 6th dan in that art), I now teach a truly multi-style MMA system which includes TKD, Submission Grappling/Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai and Escrima. Therefore, we have a LOT more curriculum than if we were only teaching TKD, but IMO if a student does not have to grow into being a black belt, then there is no point to it at all.

One thing my instructors have said over the years comparing our black belts to the belt factories is that you can get an associate's degree from the local community college or a bachelor's degree from Stanford. I personally DO consider first dan as equivalent to a high school diploma, but one from an elite prep school to prepare students for an Ivy League university and not just the local public school that will pass everyone (i.e. no student left behind). On a related note, I remember when KKW made a very strong push in the early eighties to force a movement away from TKD being taught as a combat system and more a a "family friendly" sport. My instructors balked at this and there was a fall out with Korea and the US TKD hiearchy for many years. It's funny though that in recent years, my instructor has been used as a role model by that same hiearchy and even been made the VP of the US TKD Committee (a KKW affiliate) because those same powers-that-be felt they had went astray and that we were good models of the way they now think they should be heading.

BTW, I am able to keep nearly as many adults to children in my school (55/45%) and have an active student count of nearly 300 in a town of 20,000. While this is not Earth shattering, it does show that you CAN keep high standards and uphold your integrity and still make a decent six figure income teaching quality martial arts. I believe I could do much higher numbers in a less rural area and my instructor does this with well over 800 active students out of one location.

 

[miguksaram]

The problem with separating by rank is you can have a true beginner with 3 months experience fighting as a yellow belt, against a person new to TKD but 8 years experience in karate. So the winner of the tournament in that category is a "yellow" belt with 8 years martial arts experience. So I think it ends up amounting to virtually the same thing as a yellow belt sparring a black belt.

In the open circuit we have ran across this problem before. One of our rules is that you have to compete at the highest rank you have received in martial arts. So even though you are a 3 month beginner in TKD if you have a BB in karate, you have to compete as a BB.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I cant help but feel the reason tkd has the reputation its got is because too many people are handing out black belts in 2 years and saying "little johnny knows the basics, so now he's a black belt". Other arts have a field day at the expense of tkd because of this very attitude. If I ever start my own dojang, there will be no black belts in under 5 years thats for sure.

I worked hard for 2 years, 2 times 1.5 hours per week in the dojo, and once per week at home (sometimes more in the summer) so now I have 8th ku ninpo and 9th kyu jujutsu. The idea that you could get black in 2 years seems alien to me. By then you are just starting to grasp the basics imo.

Imo as an outsider, black is seriously devaluated in TKD

 

[puunui]

The problem with separating by rank is you can have a true beginner with 3 months experience fighting as a yellow belt, against a person new to TKD but 8 years experience in karate. So the winner of the tournament in that category is a "yellow" belt with 8 years martial arts experience. So I think it ends up amounting to virtually the same thing as a yellow belt sparring a black belt.

That is the exception rather than the rule. The more likely scenario would be an instructor allowing a higher belt to wear a lower belt and compete at the lower level. That used to be common for our state association, but not so much now.

 

[puunui]

I don't know any KKW material other than the 2 semesters I studied with the late Kim, Dae Shik Ph.D. at the University of Texas and also at his private dojang.

When did Dr. Kim pass away? I have a shelf full of his books.

If I bought the school, I would have to learn the material currently taught to help smooth the transition. My friend has said would not be a problem for me and I presume he is right. He does not have an Olympic type school which is a good thing, else this transaction would not even be a possibility since I know nothing about Olympic sparring.

Would you keep the curriculum the same, or slowly change it?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I worked hard for 2 years, 2 times 1.5 hours per week in the dojo, and once per week at home (sometimes more in the summer) so now I have 8th ku ninpo and 9th kyu jujutsu.

I am unclear if you mean two years in two separate arts, or one art with more than one subset

The idea that you could get black in 2 years seems alien to me. By then you are just starting to grasp the basics imo.

Imo as an outsider, black is seriously devaluated in TKD

Different arts, no real comparison.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

As I understand it (having been told by a TKD 9th dan), in Korea TKD's ranking became greatly watered down by incorperating it into the public schools. Basically dumbed down to the lowest common denominator so that earning a 1st dan over here has far more prestige and hopefully merit than it does over there.

The one year 1st Dan came from GM HWANG Kee and the Moo Duk Kwa back in the 40's. He was the one who started that, back when the other Kwan Jang had two year programs.But then, higher dan rank wasn't such a big deal. In the Chung Do Kwan under GM LEE Won Kuk, a student could go from white belt to 7th Dan in fifteen years. Aikido's TOHEI Koichi Sensei was 32 when he received 8th Dan from Ueshiba Sensei, after twelve years of training, including a break during WWII. He was 9th Dan at age forty (twnety years of training) and 10th Dan at fifty (30 years of training).

To me, the fact that the Koreans have let the system de-value is no justification that it is endorsed through the rest of the world. Even though KKW is the world headquarters for the largest branch of TKD, the gup/dan or kyu/dan system is not their creation, but rather than something that they adopted and the other arts that use the system are at least as valid as standard bearers on the subject IMO.

Korean martial artists didn't create the dan rank system, but they are tending to follow how it was originally implemented. For example, Funakoshi Sensei moved to Japan in 1921 or 1922, and he awarded his first dan ranks in 1924 or so. 1st Dan just isn't a big a deal as it is in the United States.

To me, the "quality of my product" as an instructor and school owner is the quality of my advanced students, especially my black belts. If I were to promote someone from a beginning white belt to first dan in a year or two, I wouldn't see much value in that rank.

Maybe that is a good thing, that you don't see much value in a 1st Dan. It is, when all is said and done, a low rank, the lowest on the dan scale.

On a related note, I remember when KKW made a very strong push in the early eighties to force a movement away from TKD being taught as a combat system and more a a "family friendly" sport.

The Kukkiwon never made a strong push from combat system to "family friendly" sport. Perhaps the WTF's creation put competition up to the forefront in people's minds, but that isn't the same thing as the Kukkiwon doing it. My instructor taught the Kukkiwon Instructor Course for over twenty five years including during the early eighties and he said the Kukkiwon Instructor Course is basically the same back then as it is now, although the material is updated.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I am unclear if you mean two years in two separate arts, or one art with more than one subset


Different arts, no real comparison.

Daniel

The arts complement each other and taught both in the same dojo. We train both, and alternate the exams. So that is 3 kyu level exams in 2 years time. Regardless. For the sake of the discussion: I've passed 3 exams in 2 years time.

You are right they are different systems. However, imo 'black' means a decent understanding of the system and a firm grasp of the basics. Black used to identify you as a serious practicioner with excellent form and technique.

Regardless of whether you look at jujutsu, ninpo, karate, or TKD... can you seriously say that someone who practices 2 times per week for 2 years can be considered more than someone who is beginning to get an understanding?

 

[dancingalone]

When did Dr. Kim pass away? I have a shelf full of his books.

In 2007 of some form of cancer. He is missed.

http://www.utexas.edu/faculty/council/2008-2009/memorials/kim.html

Would you keep the curriculum the same, or slowly change it?

I would likely keep the current curriculum and gradually add more content over time, including weapons, grappling, and such. Maybe even play with inventing some applications and 2 man drills for the Taegeuks so they could become a centerpiece in training. Right now like with most TKD studios I know, the forms are just something you learn 'because'.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I am unclear if you mean two years in two separate arts, or one art with more than one subset


Different arts, no real comparison.

Daniel

I know we can say "different arts no comparison" but it appears more and more that tkd is alone on this. I have friends who do hapkido, zendokai, shotokan, bjj, aikido, wing chun and ninjitsu and all of them are taking a hell of a lot longer than 2 years to get a black belt. All of them, too, find it laughable that tkd hands them out in 2 years. Its as if all other arts have a belief of what a black belt "should be" that differs so greatly from tkd. It just seems to me that tkd really is the exception to the rule on this. I know there's the odd karate club out there handing out black belts in 2 years but its not as common as tkd. I just thinks its so frustrating that tkd is becoming the exception to the rule on this. Most students are still tripping over their own feet after 2 years of training and the thought that they can get a black belt in that time frame just doesnt seem right. I can remember where I was at after 2 years training and if Id had to defend myself for real I would have been in real trouble. the bottom line is that tkd is a martial art, its not a dance class, so if someone has a black belt they better be able to defend themself in my opinion.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The arts complement each other and taught both in the same dojo. We train both, and alternate the exams. So that is 3 kyu level exams in 2 years time. Regardless. For the sake of the discussion: I've passed 3 exams in 2 years time.

So you are training in two arts simultaneously. I would say that the grades that you hold are, after two years, abnormally low if you were only training in one art. Not a criticism, but after two years in most arts that have ten kyu/geub levels, a student has made it to at least 5th kyu.

You are right they are different systems. However, imo 'black' means a decent understanding of the system and a firm grasp of the basics.

Cannot speak for other arts, but as a system, taekwondo is not exactly arcane, so yes, two years should be sufficient to have a decent understanding and a firm grasp of the basics. And I studied way longer than two years before finally testing for my first dan, so believe me, I have no dog in this race.

Black used to identify you as a serious practicioner with excellent form and technique.

I recall more than enough students quitting after they got their black belt back in the day that I question how serious each and every holder really was. Not that they didn't take it seriously, but they moved on to other things.

Regardless of whether you look at jujutsu, ninpo, karate, or TKD... can you seriously say that someone who practices 2 times per week for 2 years can be considered more than someone who is beginning to get an understanding?

Depends on the person and how much they are practicing outside of class. I don't believe in the one size fits all with regards to time to black belt. And again, it also depends on what a black belt is in a given art. In Kukki Taekwondo, it means that you have learned eight relatively brief forms, a selection of kicks and punches, to break boards, and to engage in a form of fencing that uses the feet as the primary weapon in a tournament atmosphere.

Also, the primary use of belts in taekwondo is for competition bracketing and keeping track of the student levels in a large class.

Yes, I agree that a blackbelt holder should be able to execute the techniques of the art proficiently and correctly. Some will be able to do this much more quickly than others. Going back to my trade analogy, I took tests for various automotive certifications when I was working in automotive. I did not take the test until I was ready to reasonably pass it. While I was in college taking automotive courses, I had to test at specified times and did not have the luxury of waiting until I was ready. If a student did not know the material, he/she did not receive a passing grade.

The big issue that I see with black belts these days is not the time to grade, but the fact that many studio owners use the grading as a means of income and push unready students to test all the way to blackbelt without ever addressing any of the shortcomings that the student may have had along the way.

Students who clearly do not have a firm grasp of the material at a test should not be passed (disallowing students to test until they are ready is another discussion), and that needs to begin with the first belt test.

Praising students who did not learn the material and presenting them with a belt is a huge disservice to the student at any level. But if the school owner passes them and presents them with a belt at each test, they keep them testing and keep those fees rolling in, all the way up to the often much more expensive black belt test.

A first dan represents that the student has learned and has proficiency in the colored belt material, nothing more. And it should be nothing less.

Daniel

 

[IcemanSK]

When did Dr. Kim pass away? I have a shelf full of his books.


GM Kim died in either 2007-2008 if I recall hearing correctly. Not sure what my source is or of the date.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I know we can say "different arts no comparison" but it appears more and more that tkd is alone on this. I have friends who do hapkido, zendokai, shotokan, bjj, aikido, wing chun and ninjitsu and all of them are taking a hell of a lot longer than 2 years to get a black belt.

Again, different arts, not only from taekwondo, but from each other.

Ninjutsu, hapkido and aikido are not traditionally sporting arts, so competition bracketing is not a factor. BJJ blue belts probably take longer than most aikido black belts, haven't a clue about zendokai, and shotokan is on average four years, but also has more and more elaborate forms, plus bunkai for each form, plus competition.

Wing chun (and CMA in general) doesn't even use belts to my knowledge, so unless enterprising school owners have adopted some form of them (sashes, or whatever), that isn't even a valid comparison. Most CMA practitioners that I know find belts in CMA to be an indicator or McDojoism, accurate or not.

All of them, too, find it laughable that tkd hands them out in 2 years. Its as if all other arts have a belief of what a black belt "should be" that differs so greatly from tkd. It just seems to me that tkd really is the exception to the rule on this.

And I could criticize all of the arts that you just mentioned by enumerating the things that are generally thought about them by outsiders.

Ninjutsu = larpers who cannot defend themselves outside of their dojo.
Aikido = peacenicks who can't defend themseves after years of training
Wing Chun = the same as aikido minus the peacenick part.

People who practice those arts would probably write several paragraphs of rebuttal to those comments or dismiss them as trolling with no thought of changing what they do.

For the record, I do not think that those characterizations are valid, but they are definitely out there.

I know there's the odd karate club out there handing out black belts in 2 years but its not as common as tkd. I just thinks its so frustrating that tkd is becoming the exception to the rule on this. Most students are still tripping over their own feet after 2 years of training and the thought that they can get a black belt in that time frame just doesnt seem right.

If the majority of students are literally "still tripping over their own feet" after two years of training, I seriously question the quality of training that they are receiving. If you are employing hyperbole when you say that, then perhaps you can clarify what you really mean.

I can remember where I was at after 2 years training and if Id had to defend myself for real I would have been in real trouble.

If you cannot effectively use the techniques (kicks, punches, and blocks) after two years of training, I would be curious as to why.

Look, I'm not saying that two years should or should not be the norm. But taekwondo techniques are not so arcane or complex that you cannot get a handle on kicks, punches, and blocks after two years, particularly if you are athletic. By two years time (barring medical issues), you should have a solid roundhouse, front, side, and axe kick, should be able to punch correctly, and should be able to block and dodge. Seriously. It doesn't take that long.

If your teacher is teaching a ton of non martial material along with technique, or is focusing a lot on one or two basic techniqes for a very long time before broadening the curriculum, then that is acceptable, but will also alter the time that it takes to become proficient.

Not good or bad; new kumdo/kendo students spend a lot of their first six months doing a very small set of basic techniques before broadening the technique base. Consequently, the average time to first dan is four year or more, even though there are actually fewer techniques than there are in taekwondo.

the bottom line is that tkd is a martial art, its not a dance class,

Absloutely, though that has no bearing on belts; belts are not employed in many martial arts.

Martial art does not always equal self defense. I don't carry my katana, bamboo sword or a 39" long cane with me on a daily basis, so it is unlikely that I would use kumdo to defend myself, yet we both agree that it is a martial art, and I have way more than two years of kumdo under my belt, in addition to other sword work.

so if someone has a black belt they better be able to defend themself in my opinion.

Defend themselves what capacity? Beat all comers? Hold their own? In class? On the deadly street? The schoolyard? Against armed opponents?

How do you define being able to defend yourself?

Not being argumentative, by the way (sometimes, I'm not sure if a post is coming across that way or not, so I wanted to clarify), but I am always curious of the context when people say what you just said.

Within your organzation, I gather that the norm is more like four years. I don't know what the norm is in the ITF. ATA, and KKW, from what I have seen, the norm is two years, with some schools being more and some being less. You should really be comparing a school within its own art and organization. If the norm in KKW in the states is two years, then a one year BB is a stand out. If the norm in Korea in KKW taekwondo is one year, then a six month BB would be the oddball. If four years is the average for ITF TKD, then a two year BB is the oddball.

I'm not a proponent (or detractor) of two year first dans. Students should be given actual tests between white belt and colored belt and should not be passed if they don't know the material. Or, if you follow the 'don't test the student till he's ready philosophy' then the school shouldn't be testing unready students for the sole purpose of collecting a fee or placating unruly parents. Some people will be ready more rapidly than others. Each should progress at the pace that is the best for them. Regardless of art or organization.

Daniel