Negative Experience with 3rd Dan

[Daniel Sullivan]

I see - a very different tradition of promotion than that to which I am used, in either the Chinese or the Japanese arts.

As far as I have observed, 'adult' grades only start to come when you are passed eighteen years of age (maybe sixteen in some schools these days) and it should take a period of something like five to seven years to attain a third dan.

A third dan teenager is something I would have difficulty taking seriously, no matter how good his technique. But that's ground we've covered in other threads previously ... and I'm not TKD so I shouldn't really act as if I had a right to 'hold forth' on the subject .

One of the issues (in my opinion) with rank in commercial schools in general is that rank has become a marketing tool. It is used as a sort of diploma that, once earned, means that you've 'graduated.' It is very appealing to parents and to people who want everything to be a self contained package with a beginning and an end.

Taekwondo suffers the most because TKD schools outnumber those of other arts by a pretty hefty margin.

Daniel

 

[KELLYG]

I think that I would talk to the 3rd Dan directly. He may not be used to dealing, in a professional environment, with older students. He also may not know that he is coming off a a jerk. If there is no change then talk to the Owner about his behavior. I feel that you are paying for a service and it should not be something that makes you feel unsafe and he may not know that this type of behavior is happening.

 

[puunui]

What I'm concerned about is safety and the lack of respect. Where do I draw the line and should I bring it up to the school leader?

If I were your teacher, I would want this discreetly brought to my attention, so that I can deal with it.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Id be surprised if your teacher isnt already aware of this. If a guy is strutting around with a big head and an attitude problem Im sure others, including the teacher, would know about it. I know that any time we get a cocky teenager (in fact we have one currently), our instructor just happens to partner him up with an aggressive high ranking black belt next time we spar, and funnily enough they come crashing back down to earth. We had a 1st gup recently (aged about 15) who was very cocky, he even held the end of his belt before he sparred my 9 year old daughter and said "see this belt, its gonna be black soon and Im gonna kick your ****". Our instructor saw what happened and it just so happened that the very next class a black belt of the same age just happened to show up from one of my instructors other classes (no coincidence ) and my instructor called him out to demo some sparring and looked around to see who he could partner him with, and surprise surprise, the cocky little 1st gup just happened to get called up. After getting completely humiliated by a flurry of kicks and punches in front of 50 students, he sat back down very red faced. Funnily enough he has been a model student ever since.

 

[Balrog]

Where do I draw the line and should I bring it up to the school leader?

Bring it up NOW. He's a problem looking for a time and place to happen. From what you describe, I have to question how the hell he made it to 3rd Degree without learning some simple concepts like courtesy for fellow students and respect for both juniors and seniors (both in rank and age).

 

[Rumy73]

Bring it up NOW. He's a problem looking for a time and place to happen. From what you describe, I have to question how the hell he made it to 3rd Degree without learning some simple concepts like courtesy for fellow students and respect for both juniors and seniors (both in rank and age).

It is a classic case of being two faced. When the Sabum is present, he acts one way. When he's not present, it is a different story.

I truly appreciate all the suggestions I have received. I do believe he will be off to college in a few months. A friend suggested being overly courteous to him. Kill him with kindness. Use whatever you can from the experience to learn. If it seems to get worse, then I will let the school owner know, for sure.

 

[igillman]

It is a classic case of being two faced. When the Sabum is present, he acts one way. When he's not present, it is a different story.

I truly appreciate all the suggestions I have received. I do believe he will be off to college in a few months. A friend suggested being overly courteous to him. Kill him with kindness. Use whatever you can from the experience to learn. If it seems to get worse, then I will let the school owner know, for sure.

Every time you look at him give him a big cheesy grin.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Greetings Everyone,

I would like your advice. I'm a 1st Gup working on my black belt. I'm 38 and happy to be in martial arts. Although I am a late starter most of my experiences have been positive. I really appreciate the conditioning and training. However, at the school I attend, a 3rd Dan, who is 18, really rubs me the wrong way and I'm not sure how to handle it.

First of all, he's quite arrogant. He love to walk around bragging about his accomplishments, etc. Fine. I tend to ignore it. The lack of respect for me being an adult is what I take issue with. For example, while he is aware I can speak Korean, if I say something in Korean to him, he justs ignores me. In the locker room, he was teasing a younger student and I laughed, shaking my head at the ridiculousness of it. He was livid and tried to accost me, asking if I was laughing at his conversation. I could see he was a bit enraged. I told him to call down that "everything isn't all about him." He walked out of the room, stared at me and then threw a flurry of punches into the face of punching dummy. Recently, I sparred with him and he was more aggressive than necessary. So I clinched up with him a lot, as he was faster and much more skilled. What I'm concerned about is safety and the lack of respect. Where do I draw the line and should I bring it up to the school leader?

If its behavior that makes you uncomfortable, it is conceivable that other students are too; so, I would tactfully bring it up to the head teacher.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not if those paying customers are locked in to a contract...

Good reason for a lawsuit.
Sean

 

[shesulsa]

The very best thing you could do is to bring it to the attention of the owner in as neutral a manner as possible, leaving possibility open that there might be a better way to handle the youngster yourself.

For instance, when he spouts off at another student, don't laugh and shake your head, just observe and take note. If he becomes verbally or physically abusive, that is definitely a reason to speak to the head instructor or owner.

If he's clearly too violent during sparring to the point of obviously breaking rules, then report it to the head instructor or owner by asking how you can better train to meet his extreme intensity. *wink*

Let us know how things turn out.

 

[Rumy73]

The very best thing you could do is to bring it to the attention of the owner in as neutral a manner as possible, leaving possibility open that there might be a better way to handle the youngster yourself.

For instance, when he spouts off at another student, don't laugh and shake your head, just observe and take note. If he becomes verbally or physically abusive, that is definitely a reason to speak to the head instructor or owner.

If he's clearly too violent during sparring to the point of obviously breaking rules, then report it to the head instructor or owner by asking how you can better train to meet his extreme intensity. *wink*

Let us know how things turn out.

This is brilliant. Love it. Thank you.

 

[Manny]

PLus, what is an 18 year old doing being a third dan in the first place? Did he start training whilst he was at infants school?!

God one!!!!

Manny

 

[Manny]

I want to share this, a small child with poom, even a tennage with a poom or dan has not the maturity to handle certain things, he/she is not prepared to take the responsability that is to be a black belt now picture this having high dan grades on a teen. I've seen such jerks as a 20-25 years old black belts that feel like the last coke on desert.

It's simple a child or a teen does not have the maturity to wear a high rank inside a martial art.

Yestarday in a judo dojo i met a 14 years old who is training with his sensei since 7, this teen weara a blue belt and sensei told me he's working in his brown belt but I think that maybe this teen at 15 would be elegible to be a brown belt and then maybe at 18 would become a black belt and we are talking about 11 years of full training to get his black belt 1st Dan.

Personally I am against giving black belt status to childen and teenagers period.

Manny

 

[puunui]

Personally I am against giving black belt status to childen and teenagers period.

And if you ever open up your own dojang, you can take that position. But you might find that you may lose business and income to the dojang across the street who does issue black belt certification to their students. Technically, poom ranked students are not supposed to wear black belts; instead they are supposed to wear the half red half black poom belt. Some instructors went with this for a while, but parents complained that their kids should be allowed to wear black belts, since they advertise "We are a Black Belt School". So the instructors bowed to that pressure and allowed their poom holders to wear black belts. Now the Kukkiwon is issuing poom certificates with that red and black belt on it, while dan certificates have a pure black belt on it. This may cause some confusion and perhaps will drive even more instructors away from issuing Kukkiwon certificates to their poom level students. At the very least, it is another thing that the instructor has to explain to the new poom holder and their parents.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Technically, poom ranked students are not supposed to wear black belts; instead they are supposed to wear the half red half black poom belt.

Is this actually in the KKW bylaws? If so, that is a good thing, though I have never been able to find it.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

And if you ever open up your own dojang, you can take that position. But you might find that you may lose business and income to the dojang across the street who does issue black belt certification to their students. Technically, poom ranked students are not supposed to wear black belts; instead they are supposed to wear the half red half black poom belt. Some instructors went with this for a while, but parents complained that their kids should be allowed to wear black belts, since they advertise "We are a Black Belt School". So the instructors bowed to that pressure and allowed their poom holders to wear black belts. Now the Kukkiwon is issuing poom certificates with that red and black belt on it, while dan certificates have a pure black belt on it. This may cause some confusion and perhaps will drive even more instructors away from issuing Kukkiwon certificates to their poom level students. At the very least, it is another thing that the instructor has to explain to the new poom holder and their parents.

I just cant accept this. I know of way too many very successful martial arts schools that dont allow child black belts. Most parents arent stupid and know that if a school gives little johnny a black belt in 2 years then there is not a lot of credibility associated with that black belt. The most popular and successful karate club in my area does not give out black belts to children under any circumstances and business is booming for them, they have thousands of students and are a well respected martial arts club in the area. Our club has child black belts and I personally dont have a problem with it but I certainly dont believe children have to be offered black belts in order for a club to stay financially viable. I originally started martial arts when my daughter wanted to start. I didnt know much about ma's at all. I opened the yellow pages and phoned around many clubs and asked heaps of questions. At no point did I ask or care about whether my daughter could get a black belt, to be honest I didnt even care if they wore belts. The more I read on here the more it seems all the consumer cares about over there is black belts, I hope that isnt the case because there is so much more to ma.

 

[puunui]

Is this actually in the KKW bylaws? If so, that is a good thing, though I have never been able to find it. Daniel

I don't think it is in the Kukkiwon bylaws, but it is on the Kukkiwon poom certificates now, that red/black belt, as opposed to the Kukkiwon dan certificates, which has a solid black symbol. The poom belt is the red and black belt.

 

[leadleg]

I just cant accept this. I know of way too many very successful martial arts schools that dont allow child black belts. Most parents arent stupid and know that if a school gives little johnny a black belt in 2 years then there is not a lot of credibility associated with that black belt. The most popular and successful karate club in my area does not give out black belts to children under any circumstances and business is booming for them, they have thousands of students and are a well respected martial arts club in the area. Our club has child black belts and I personally dont have a problem with it but I certainly dont believe children have to be offered black belts in order for a club to stay financially viable. I originally started martial arts when my daughter wanted to start. I didnt know much about ma's at all. I opened the yellow pages and phoned around many clubs and asked heaps of questions. At no point did I ask or care about whether my daughter could get a black belt, to be honest I didnt even care if they wore belts. The more I read on here the more it seems all the consumer cares about over there is black belts, I hope that isnt the case because there is so much more to ma.[/quote]
I think your perspective is going to be a bit off if you are going to assume that what you read here is going to be some kind of national average, there are less than a dozen different posters who reply consistently,you being one.
As for the karate school with thousands of students, I bet the founder of the style started at a young age.Does every club in Australia have thousands of students?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I just cant accept this. I know of way too many very successful martial arts schools that dont allow child black belts. Most parents arent stupid and know that if a school gives little johnny a black belt in 2 years then there is not a lot of credibility associated with that black belt. The most popular and successful karate club in my area does not give out black belts to children under any circumstances and business is booming for them, they have thousands of students and are a well respected martial arts club in the area. Our club has child black belts and I personally dont have a problem with it but I certainly dont believe children have to be offered black belts in order for a club to stay financially viable. I originally started martial arts when my daughter wanted to start. I didnt know much about ma's at all. I opened the yellow pages and phoned around many clubs and asked heaps of questions. At no point did I ask or care about whether my daughter could get a black belt, to be honest I didnt even care if they wore belts. The more I read on here the more it seems all the consumer cares about over there is black belts, I hope that isnt the case because there is so much more to ma.[/quote]
I think your perspective is going to be a bit off if you are going to assume that what you read here is going to be some kind of national average, there are less than a dozen different posters who reply consistently,you being one.
As for the karate school with thousands of students, I bet the founder of the style started at a young age.Does every club in Australia have thousands of students?

No, far from it. Most clubs I know of over here are tiny. In fact I know of many schools that run out of someone's garage and even many commercial schools would be flat out having 30 students in total. The funny thing is though, the huge clubs, the ones with thousands of students tend to do all the things that Im told you cant do if you want a lot of students. Things like no child black belts, no 'easy to get black belts', hard old fashioned style training. I hear these things are hard to do if you want heaps of students yet ironically most of the big schools I know of have not had to compromise their principles on these things in order to get a huge number of clientel. I even see it within the club I train at. The instructors who go a bit easier, particularly on the kids and perhaps dont have quite as high a standards and generally run more 'people frienly' classes tend to have a lot less students than the old 'hard head instructors' in our club. I think there is a huge market out there for martial arts to be taught hard and the whole argument that liitle johnny needs his black belt quickly and easily in order to keep him training is sometimes a bit of a generalisation.

 

[puunui]

I think your perspective is going to be a bit off if you are going to assume that what you read here is going to be some kind of national average, there are less than a dozen different posters who reply consistently,you being one.

I wouldn't waste my time responding or attempting to explain. The discussion started with dancingalone, who lives in the United States, discussing issues that he may have if he takes over a commercial school. In the United States, the Taekwondo schools tend to be populated with children, which even dancingalone acknowledged early in the discussion. I'm trying to think if any of my friends have schools with primarily adults and the only ones that come to mind are college clubs, not commercial schools. I know some who are building up their adult population by encouraging parents to study along side their children as a family activity but for the most part, taekwondo dojang in the US have children as the primary student base. Perhaps it is different in Australia, I don't know. What I do know is constantly horning into the discussion by saying in Australia it is different doesn't help dancingalone with his potential commercial dojang in the US, which no doubt will be populated mostly with children. Put another way, if the discussion were about dojang in Australia, I probably would limit my participation to the asking of some questions. I certainly wouldn't barge in by insisting that it is different in the US. I may mention once for comparison purposes the differences, but I wouldn't try to steer the discussion towards the US, because no doubt Australia has a different culture and they probably do things and think differently about it.