'Okinawan Karate'

Chris Parker

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Alex, I think the most obvious thing from your posts here is that:
- you think you have real experience, knowledge, skill, and understanding.
- you actually don't have any of the above.

Now, whether this is because you have been misled over your time by less than skillful instructors basically making stuff up along the way, or because you have no self-editing ability, that's up for debate. But it is painfully obvious that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all in anything you've posted on. An example? Sure!

The term acujutsu is both a shortening of the word acujiujitsu, and the origin of the term lies with master Hayes, who instructed master Murray. At first I thought I'd snafu'd, and was using a term a fellow brother practitioner had created, but it is acujiujitsu, which is just as it sounds, jiujitsu which focuses on acupuncture points, in regards to fighting. It's essentially jiujitsu combined with aikido, designed to target nerves to create locks. It hurts, and can last between a minute to an hour from what I've felt first hand. Later on, while teaching at TKD academy, he shortened the name for sake of simplicity, so that rather than teach a philosophy of acujiujitsu, he would only teach the techniques which targeted the nerves, and caused locking. In essence, he took everything but the strikes out, and passed that on to us.

One more time.... "acu" has no place in the terminology here. But more than that, attacking nerves doesn't create locks, attacking joints does. It's really not possible to "lock" a nerve... other than that, this entire thread (and especially the aboce quote) simply serves to point out that, no matter what your claims of experience, you really don't have any that any here would count.
 

K-man

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Earlier it has been said that I made up a style when referring to okinawan karate. I am posting this so I can re-explain what exactly I meant when I made that statement, and supply information as to my background. When Master Murray first began teaching us karate, it was selectively from basic techniques across both Shorin-ryu, and jiujitsu.

OK, this is cool. He is after all a 7th Dan in Shorin Ryu.

When he began instructing us, because at the time he was not teaching the entire ryu, only a portion thereof, and combined with jiujitsu, turned out a style which was nor shorin-ryu. Recently however he has begun to teach shorin-ryu in its entirety to TKD Academy (ironic name, I know). However, I have since relocated and do not attend that location anymore, though I taught there when the style of that school's focus was in learning chung do kwon.

To paraphrase. He just taught you a few bits of Shorin Ryu and some jujutsu that is probably part of Shorin Ryu anyway.

So, while TKD and its current students practice shorin-ryu, I left when Master Murray was still only teaching elements of both shorin karate, and jiujitsu, and as such, have only practiced karate (in relation to his teachings) which are from Okinawa, but not the entire system which he is currently teaching.

So you learned a little bit of' 'Okinawan' karate, but not much.

As such, that form of karate I have practiced, while yes it is a part of shorin, is better relegated to being considered very generic, basic karate techniques.

I'd love to know what you consider 'basic' techniques.

He chose these because of the similarity between chung do kwan and that particular karate style, and it would make it easier. The term acujutsu is both a shortening of the word acujiujitsu, and the origin of the term lies with master Hayes, who instructed master Murray. At first I thought I'd snafu'd, and was using a term a fellow brother practitioner had created, but it is acujiujitsu, which is just as it sounds, jiujitsu which focuses on acupuncture points, in regards to fighting.

It's a made up word. Kyusho is the term given to utilising vital points, some of which can also be used in accupuncture. There is a group that call their art 'Kyusho Jitsui' and I have some of their material which I find to be excellent.

It's essentially jiujitsu combined with aikido, designed to target nerves to create locks. It hurts, and can last between a minute to an hour from what I've felt first hand.

Essentially this is nonsense. Jujutsu doesn't need Aikido because it is a complete system. You could argue that Aikido is not a complete system as it was distilled from Daito Ryu and has far fewer techniques. Having said that, it still has all you need for it to be a total martial art.

Later on, while teaching at TKD academy, he shortened the name for sake of simplicity, so that rather than teach a philosophy of acujiujitsu, he would only teach the techniques which targeted the nerves, and caused locking.

Sorry, I'll call BS. I've been studying and teaching Kyusho for years. Yes, you target nerves but the are either struck, pressed or rubbed. They are not used for locks. Locks are for the joints where you are using pressure exceeding the natural range of movement of the joint to cause pain.

In essence, he took everything but the strikes out, and passed that on to us. From what I understand, with shorin-ryu, he has branched out considerably with TKD academy. Compared to several years ago, their throws are formidable. I try not to let them within my bubble long enough to be grabbed.

If he took everything but the strikes out there wouldn't be much left.

Here is a more clear summary of his own background;

Kyoshi Murray credits his martial arts skills and abilities to some of the best Okinawan Masters of this era .....

Couldn't get a cut and paste to work on the names but that doesn't matter. Mr Murray credits his martial arts skills and knowledge to these people. He doesn't say he was trained by them. As an example, if I was compiling a list of masters to whom I credit my skills and understanding, up near the top would be a Shotokan man from the UK called iain Abernethy. I have never trained with Iain, I have not even met Iain. I read his book and it opened my eyes to a world I didn't know existed. I will for ever acknowledge his unknowing contribution to my Martial Arts journey.

I would like to note also that Jody Paul was among the initial SEAL teams formed. Which is kinda cool in my opinion. Just a fun fact.

The Karate I consider myself to know best is Shotokan, and while there are many techniques of Shorin I have learned, I do not consider myself knowledgeable in it, as the techniques were also blended with Aikido and other throwing systems.

Yet you say you haven't a grade in Shotokan. And, up above you say that all but the punches were taken out of the Shorin Ryu you were shown. Then above you said the techniques were blended with jujutsu. Here you say it's Aikido.

Can you begin to see why we are all confused?

I would go so far as to say between the similarities of chung do kwan and Shotokan you can kind of create a shorin-ryu style, but there are still certain things which come off as just offish. I have practiced shotokan, and karate from the area of Okinawa, which hailed from the shorin-ryu school.

And I would go so far to say that this is complete bollocks.

Given how things may go in the next 6 months and whether I enlist or not, I may return to resume my training in that art so I can stop saying Okinawan karate. However, for those of you interested, here is a page
Sorry it took so long to get to the OP but had to clear some collateral damage alonge the way. :)
 

K-man

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Alex, I think the most obvious thing from your posts here is that:
- you think you have real experience, knowledge, skill, and understanding.
- you actually don't have any of the above.

Now, whether this is because you have been misled over your time by less than skillful instructors basically making stuff up along the way, or because you have no self-editing ability, that's up for debate. But it is painfully obvious that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about at all in anything you've posted on. An example? Sure!



One more time.... "acu" has no place in the terminology here. But more than that, attacking nerves doesn't create locks, attacking joints does. It's really not possible to "lock" a nerve... other than that, this entire thread (and especially the aboce quote) simply serves to point out that, no matter what your claims of experience, you really don't have any that any here would count.
Damn! Chris, what took you so long to get here? I'm tagging you! :)
 

clfsean

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Its not that anyone is claiming they 'know' the entire history of any martial art. We don't have to in this day, transitive memory allows us to remember where we need to look for info which is pertinent toward what we are discussing or learning about, and thankfully, wikipedia is an excellent compendium for cursory information on a subject. Martial arts history is convoluted, often, especially in relation to Korean, Chinese, and Japanese arts.

Wow... you actually brought Wiki-wrong into this.


the Aikido training I have had has been through several teachers. One is instructor Cotrell, though that was only for a few months. My teacher of Bagua was very skilled in daito ryu aikijujutsu, and learned Aikido in the 50s around the time they added 'dan' ranking for Aikidoka. I do not believed he was ranked in aikido. He just happened to enjoy Bagua, and was gifted at the art because he treated it less as a combat system, and more as something to add into the meditative circle walking.

Wait... your Chinese bagua teacher also learned Daito-ryu AND Aikido?? In a post WW2 environment?? Where exactly did this happen?

Krav Maga I learned from special forces members who frequented my family's home. My mother is a colonel in the army, and these guys were, from what I can gather, the army equivalent to CIA spooks. They wore no uniform, and tried to look civilian. You can always spot them out at an airport.

It's already been said... :deadhorse

Bill, I am also a small person, and I can cover a range of 10+ feet with a one step-motion kick. I made this kick up, designed it, everything. I have never witnessed another able to do it, much to my regret. It is not for lack of teaching. What works for some, might not for others. Being small doesn't stop us from being able to generate force or momentum, but arts which take advantage of those kind of forces, as opposed to speed or flexibility, are better suited toward larger people. Sure, a small person can do them, just as a small person can do Oh Do Kwan. It's not the same thing, though, as when its in the hands of those best suited toward it. I think the grossest example would be if you stuck a skinny person into a sumo match, even if they knew the style. the question isn't if it's doable, the question is why do it, when there are other paths which can be taken, with less resistance, which go better with your body? I know how to grapple specifically so I can escape from grabs, holds, and throws, not so I can execute them myself. I see no need to when my goal is to hit the vitals, as opposed to put someone on the ground. I do this because I have realized, when I actually go against professional jiujitsu people, who are MASSIVE, I cannot compare. I am happy to just not get hurt, and be able to unentangle from them. At least then, when standing, I can stomp on them if it were the street, and so on.

:bs: I was covering double digit feet before you were long thought about. I believe I mentioned even toasting my knee doing that same kick probably about the same time you were born.

But Bagua works with my small size; bulk would actually inhibit it. I don't need strength when there are other styles happy to give it to me. Isshin ryu has phenomenal power in my opinion, but this also just makes it easier to redirect them. Same thing for Shotokan. The lunging, aggressive tactile push forward is what works best for bagua to contront, and mitigate. In Karate, in TKD, there is a tendency to want to stand there and just take hits, and so the arts have become oriented for people to operate like that. But if you take an art which specializes in generating tremendous amounts of force this means a couple of things need to be kept in mind; normally, the more force comes at a cost to speed, and additionally, against arts designed to channel force, those arts which generate such tremendous physical force for striking... are only empower the person practicing the channeling art. The more force, the harder it is to control, and it takes next to no force to just position one's arm in a way to shift their strike a fraction to the left or right, and their power disintegrate harmlessly against the air.

Umm... Size does matter. The bigger the player, the more mass is brought. A guy I know teaches Gao Bagua. He's built like a fire hydrant. You don't want him snatching you up. My Gao Xingyi teacher is an older guy... boxer... TSD from the 70's & 80's... 6'3" or so... also teaches Gao Bagua. You dont want him getting close to you. Size matters.

Dong Hai Chuan was reported to be a large framed guy. Yin Fu wasn't. Cheng Ting Hua bigger than Yin Fu. Yin's bagua is different than Cheng's. Yin was Lohan adept, Cheng a Shuai Jiao player. Yin's is different than Cheng's. Yin's works one way, Cheng's another, but they're the same thing.

You can't say bulk wouldn't work for bagua. It might not work for you, but bulk works very well.

You want to know the easiest way to take down a practioner of Bagua, or Aikido? An Armbar. Simple, crude, and they get so close its nearly unavoidable at times if you do it right.

Umm... this applies to anybody.


Even then Uechi is debatable because Kanbun Uechi incorporated outside techniques while in china. That's not a bad thing, but if asking for 'pure' Okinawan karate... it gets a little fuzzy between the lines I think.

Yeah... not so sure about that one. Can you provide something on that?
 

dancingalone

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I leave MT for a few hours and I come back to a tornado.

Shorin Ryu, from what I understand, has raised stances, emphasizes chambering of leg, and quick strikes to nullify the attack. Rather than overwhelm, they seek to deconstruct.

Here's the thing, Zenjael. You're picking out basic physical observations which actually aren't too meaningful when discussing what makes a system 'Shorin-ryu'. Raised stances compared to what? Quicks strikes to nullify the attack? I'd hope most strikes would be quick as slow ones generally don't work unless the opponent has already been neutralized. Deconstruct? What does that mean? A single punch in the jaw can 'deconstruct' and overwhelm in the same moment.

It seems that we have different conceptions of what makes an art that art (hint: it's not all physical), which is fine once we understand what you're actually trying to say.

Unlike my preferred style of Bagua, but like Chung Do Kwan, it is linear, and emphasizes use of one's hands.

I guess if we're speaking broad terms. The fact is that karate is really up to the practitioner. The tool box is all there - it's up to the individual to pull out the correct tool for the right job or to favor a specific subset if he wants. A full martial art once you've actually tapped the depths of it goes way beyond simple adjectives like linear or hand-oriented.

This kinda makes sense since it's handwork was incorporated from Chinese Kempo and shotokan respectively, while Chung Do Kwan's were essentially wing chun punches converted to the korean horizontal strike which has existed since even before subak as a style did. Jhoon Rhee created Chung Do Kwan, as a style heavily influenced by his time training with Bruce Lee, to whom he taught how to execute TKD's powerful kicks. I can only imagine what would have happened if Bruce Lee did Muai Thai. Maybe the sun would explode with awesomeness?

Are you saying Shorin-ryu came from Shotokan and Chinese Kempo? If so this is incorrect. Shotokan is a Japanese evolution of the karate taught by "Anko" Itosu to Funakoshi, Gichin. Shorin-ryu is a somewhat modern name for the Te taught in Shuri village and Itosu Sensei would fall in this group if we must choose a classification for him. Incidentally, the Chinese connections for Shorin-ryu are much more obscured and faded over time. While it is probably accurate to say there was some influence there, the statement itself doesn't mean much, and serious students of Okinawan martial arts understand that.

Jhoon Rhee did not create the Chung Do Kwan style. He is a senior member of Chung Do Kwan and finished his training there before he emigrated to the United States, before the unification movement within TKD essentially created a (mostly)common form of study now under the Kukkiwon umbrella.

What you say about Chung Do Kwan punches being converted Wing Chun punches is news to me. The first kwan head of the Chung Do Kwan, LEE Won Kuk, studied early Shotokan karate, and the rotating technique of the horizontal punch within TKD is largely one-for-one the same as in JKA Shotokan karate today.

You must understand that the word 'traditional' for TKD is a misnomer, as the art itself has only existed for at most 75 years.

I said nothing at all about tradition and TKD above. And the relative youth of the art is no revelation to most here.

Chung Do Kwan is among the oldest of the schools, but even then it has been radically modified in its relatively short time. For example, Chung Do Kwan originally followed a curriculum of the forms of Tang Soo Do because Won Kuk Lee who founded it, was both a master of Taekyyon (the kicking art which would become what we know of as WTF style, or moo duk kwan affiliated technique) and a 4th dan in shotokan.

I don't think LEE Won Kuk studied Taekkyon at all, but perhaps someone who knows better will chime in. There is at least one person on MT who has talked with GM Lee in person.

Hence, chung do kwan. However, at some point my teacher or his, Master Khan, ditched the Tang Soo Do forms, while retaining their name, and incorporated other elements. There is a form practiced in Shotokan, which is far older than TKD, known as Heian Shodan.

FAR older? The Pinan forms were introduced in the early 1900s by Itosu Sensei. His student Funakoshi took them to Japan and renamed them the Heian sometime in the 1920s or 1930s. Depending on which historical event you pick, TKD started in the 1940s, 1950s, or 1970s.

In this video.
. between 40 seconds and 48, the practitioner executes 4 knife-hand techniques, which is identical to techniques found in the form we learned as ki cho hyung, the second form of our system of chung do kwan in NOVA. Essentially he kept the names, and took forms from other systems, changing their moves from the original to one's which would do the same thing, with movements based off chung do kwan. The fact no one has really caught onto that is really something to marvel about. I have always wanted to ask how many of the 'traditional' forms we learned were just made up, which might explain why we were still doing warrior shield so late as the 2000s, but I digress.

Assuming I understand you correctly, why should it be unusual that no one at your studio realized your instructor changed and made up his own forms albeit using other forms as source material? This is nothing new. It's happened before and will happen again.

TKD which is not affiliated with WTF style is basically karate with deeper stances, and somewhat alternate methods of chambering. Even in Tae Kwon Do, you can find across the styles people who chamber their hands at their chest, their solar plexus level, or hips, and some from raised hands in fighting stance, like boxers and chinese kempo, while others dont use their hands at all. None of it is wrong, but good luck figuring out not only what your teacher taught you, but where on earth it came from. I would say 100% of what is known as TKD contains elements of both Subak, Yusil and TaeKyon, with elements from karate heavily influencing the earliest styles.

It depends on whom you choose to believe/follow, but I personally don't believe there was much if any of any of those 3 Korean ancient arts in TKD as it was during the kwan era or in the early unification period. I can definitely believe there is an effort now to research and preserve them now if possible with a goal of reintroducing ideas from them gradually into mainstream TKD.

But it really makes sense, if you look at chung Do Kwan, and consider that all won kuk lee did was deepen shotokan stances, and raise the kicks, while keeping the handwork. This would later be altered again and chambering the hands would be removed when Jhoon Rhee befriended Bruce Lee and they taught each other. Some Chung Do Kwan schools still chamber when advancing in stances, not unlike Isshin-ryu at the chest, while out here in NOVA we learned to not chamber our arms- they already are if they're raised.

The person on MT who is personally acquainted with LEE Won Kuk, says GM Lee learned a higher natural stance from Funakoshi Sensei, rather than the deeper stances commonly associated with JKA Shotokan. I would be curious if you could provide a more extensive description and critique of what you think Chung Do Kwan's technical standards are for stances, theory of power production, movement, etc. are.

When you understand the history of TKD, and that it's just a made up martial art drawing from other unique styles, and mashing them together (which explains why half of the people who practice TKD look one way, while the other half look like karate) it should become clear to how the transformations were made. Korean arts were slammed together with Shotokan, with how one generates torque shifted away from full body momentum, and back to the earlier practice in Subak of using torque from pivoting, twisting from one's waise, and using torque with strikes. If anything... it's kinda like saying SHOTOKAN THANK YOU FOR TKD.

I'd say it's more accurate (and politic) to state that a person's expression of TKD can vary greatly depending on whom their teacher was, as the technical standards of TKD have evolved over time within and without enforcing organizations.

More on the rest of your post as I have time. Suffice it to say, I think much of what you've written is very inaccurate to say the least and you should probably revisit the topics with a knowledgeable guide so as to avoid passing along misinformation to others.
 
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Chris Parker

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This is fair. It's not a matter of not listening, or I frankly wouldn't be responding to this at all, but rather that we disagree. Frankly, assuming I'm just wrong on my opinion of things is a bit uncouth in martial arts, from my experience. I generally don't tell people, do it this way, because I might be in err of what their teacher expects, and has instructed. What's to counter? Are we debating? Sparring?

If we were all offering different ideas and disagreeing with each other, okay. But we're not. We're all telling you the same damn thing.

And you're not listening.

It's really not "uncouth in martial arts" (whatever that may mean...) to assume you're wrong because you keep saying things that are incorrect, you know. It might be considered "uncouth in martial arts" to continually ignore what you're being told, though... although that would probably just be considered "uncouth" in regards to basic manners and netiquette.

In short, you don't know one tenth of what you think you do, and what you do know is likely made up garbage. Time to start over, I feel. Strap on a white belt, find a proper school, and try to learn something, if you can.
 

MJS

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. At first I thought I'd snafu'd, and was using a term a fellow brother practitioner had created, but it is acujiujitsu, which is just as it sounds, jiujitsu which focuses on acupuncture points, in regards to fighting. It's essentially jiujitsu combined with aikido, designed to target nerves to create locks.

Umm....what? So, the acu term is just what I thought...something made up. Once again, you seem to be missing this....Kyusho is the proper term. As Chris said, you don't need to attack a nerve to get a lock. I do locks all the time in Arnis, and I'm not targetting the nerves prior to the lock. If you look at what Dillman does, he's striking a nerve or series of nerves, to get a desired result, which is usually a KO.

But what does this have to do with the topic?
 

MJS

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Time to start over, I feel. Strap on a white belt, find a proper school, and try to learn something, if you can.

QFT! I second and third this! LOL! Might I add to this Chris....spend more than a few months. Try spending years, preferably upwards of 10+.
 

K-man

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Its not that anyone is claiming they 'know' the entire history of any martial art. We don't have to in this day, transitive memory allows us to remember where we need to look for info which is pertinent toward what we are discussing or learning about, and thankfully, wikipedia is an excellent compendium for cursory information on a subject. Martial arts history is convoluted, often, especially in relation to Korean, Chinese, and Japanese arts.

MJS is not saying you have to know all the history. I study the history that relates to my training out of interest. What you do need, especially if you are going to teach, is an exceptional technical knowledge that enables you to explain the different techniques to you students. Sorry, this part lost its colour.

This is fair. It's not a matter of not listening, or I frankly wouldn't be responding to this at all, but rather that we disagree. Frankly, assuming I'm just wrong on my opinion of things is a bit uncouth in martial arts, from my experience. I generally don't tell people, do it this way, because I might be in err of what their teacher expects, and has instructed. What's to counter? Are we debating? Sparring?

Yes, you are not listening. You disagree with everyone. Doesn't that strike you as a little unusual?

the Aikido training I have had has been through several teachers. One is instructor Cotrell, though that was only for a few months. My teacher of Bagua was very skilled in daito ryu aikijujutsu, and learned Aikido in the 50s around the time they added 'dan' ranking for Aikidoka. I do not believed he was ranked in aikido. He just happened to enjoy Bagua, and was gifted at the art because he treated it less as a combat system, and more as something to add into the meditative circle walking.

If you really have trained Aikido and I doubt it based on what you have written, you would be aware that what you learn is not going to have a lot of practical use for years. As for your Bagua teacher learning Daito Ryu, possible but an unusual combination. Also not much Daito Ryu around these days. It's a very complex art. And, just so you know, dan gradings in aikido were around well before the 50s. Toichi Tohei was ranked to 5th Dan about 1942 for one.

Krav Maga I learned from special forces members who frequented my family's home. My mother is a colonel in the army, and these guys were, from what I can gather, the army equivalent to CIA spooks. They wore no uniform, and tried to look civilian. You can always spot them out at an airport.

So, once again it transpires that you have no formal training in KM either. How on earth did you make the claim that if you were being mugged, you wouldn't use the martial arts that you claimed you had studied for 10 or 20 years but instead you would use a style that you haven't trained at all?


Bill, I am also a small person, and I can cover a range of 10+ feet with a one step-motion kick. I made this kick up, designed it, everything. I have never witnessed another able to do it, much to my regret. It is not for lack of teaching.

And I bet you can leap tall buildings with a single bound.

But Bagua works with my small size; bulk would actually inhibit it. I don't need strength when there are other styles happy to give it to me. Isshin ryu has phenomenal power in my opinion, but this also just makes it easier to redirect them. Same thing for Shotokan. The lunging, aggressive tactile push forward is what works best for bagua to contront, and mitigate. In Karate, in TKD, there is a tendency to want to stand there and just take hits, and so the arts have become oriented for people to operate like that. But if you take an art which specializes in generating tremendous amounts of force this means a couple of things need to be kept in mind; normally, the more force comes at a cost to speed, and additionally, against arts designed to channel force, those arts which generate such tremendous physical force for striking... are only empower the person practicing the channeling art. The more force, the harder it is to control, and it takes next to no force to just position one's arm in a way to shift their strike a fraction to the left or right, and their power disintegrate harmlessly against the air.

Again you are demonstrating you have no knowledge of how power is generated in Okinawan karate. Yes, it is different to the Japanese forms. The only thing you said you were taught by Mr Murray was punching and here you are talking about things that would be totally at odds with what he would have taught you.

And making the power disintegrate harmlessly. Yep, in the dojo. In real life there is a thing called inertia. When a big fist is coming your way you had better practise your tsabaki or they will be carrying you out on a stretcher.


You want to know the easiest way to take down a practioner of Bagua, or Aikido? An Armbar. Simple, crude, and they get so close its nearly unavoidable at times if you do it right.

Couldn't comment on the Bagua but I will for the aikido. Simple strike to St5 or GB20. Forget the arm bar, it's not going to work, especially for someone your size.

Even then Uechi is debatable because Kanbun Uechi incorporated outside techniques while in china. That's not a bad thing, but if asking for 'pure' Okinawan karate... it gets a little fuzzy between the lines I think.

Alex, you are going from bad to worse. All Okinawan karate incorporated techniques from China. That's why it was called 'China Hand' or Kara-Te. Uechi Ryu is definitely pure Okinawan Karate. Not at all fuzzy. I would have to check the authentic recognised Okinawan styles but off the top of my head, Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Wado Ryu? and I'm not sure if Issin Ryu has been accepted yet. It's inclusion was under consideration.

.
I just couldn't go to bed and leave this .... :)
 

Bill Mattocks

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"I would have to check the authentic recognised Okinawan styles but off the top of my head, Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Wado Ryu? and I'm not sure if Issin Ryu has been accepted yet. It's inclusion was under consideration."

I believe it is Goju, Uechi, and and Shorin. Isshin-Ryu has been submitted to the Okinawan Prefecture Karate Rengokai for recognition, but has not yet been formally accepted as I understand it. I believe Wado is Japanese.

http://www.gojukarate.co/Products/gojuryukarate/traditionalkaratedefined
The Okinawan Prefecture Karate Rengokai is the governing body of traditional Okinawa Karate and Kobudo. The various masters of Okinawan Karate govern this association and are eligible to receive support from the Okinawan government. To be recognised as being a traditional karate system or style, certain criteria must be met. The system must have existed at least 50 years. In addition, it must have maintained it’s original forms as taught by the founder of the style, with no variations.
 

Brian King

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Whew, this thread reminds me of a fun proverb, a quotation, and a joke. The proverb I first learned it as a Spanish proverb, then heard it was Italian, and just recently read that it was Chinese... sounds like a great meal regardless of where it originated.


“Si alguien le llama un culo, no te preocupes. Si dos personas te llaman una mirada culo en el espejo para estar seguro, pero si tres personas te llaman un culo que usted debe comprar una silla de monta”


Roughly translated (thank you google), substituting burro for a three letter word that starts with an A and is followed by a couple of s’s. Political correct and all that, but I do think the three letter word works so much better on many different levels.


“If someone calls you an *** burro, do not worry. If two people call you an *** burro look in the mirror to be sure, but if three people call you an *** burro you should buy a saddle.”


The way I first heard it, rather than saddle the term used was “a bridle” which I have often found appropriate for many circumstances this proverb comes to mind.


The quotation that comes to mind is one attributed to Albert Einstein. “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”


If not truly insane then this joke comes to mind.


A guy went out bear hunting one day. He saw a bear and shot it. It was a perfect shot in the head. He walked over to retrieve the dead bear and it wasn't there on the ground. He was wondering where it went. Then he felt a tap on his shoulder. He looked back and it was a bear. The bear said, "Grab your ankles." So the hunter did and the bear mounted him.
The next day, the hunter went back out hunting with a bigger gun. He thought, "I am going to get that bear this time!"
He saw the bear, shot him twice, then he noticed the bear was again not on the ground when he tried to retrieve it.
He got another tap on the shoulder. You guessed it, a bear again, saying, "Grab your ankles."
The next day the guy went out again, this time he had a 50 caliber machine gun with Armor piercing, explosive tip rounds.
He saw the bear and filled him full of lead! Then he got another tap on the shoulder. He looked back and saw a bear. The bear said, "You know, I am beginning to think that you are not really coming out here to hunt!"


Someone pass the popcorn would ya? Also perhaps a cold beer to wash it down?


Regards
Brian King
 

oaktree

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Hi Zenjael

the Aikido training I have had has been through several teachers. One is instructor Cotrell, though that was only for a few months. My teacher of Bagua was very skilled in daito ryu aikijujutsu, and learned Aikido in the 50s around the time they added 'dan' ranking for Aikidoka. I do not believed he was ranked in aikido. He just happened to enjoy Bagua, and was gifted at the art because he treated it less as a combat system, and more as something to add into the meditative circle walking.
To be very skilled in Daito ryu would take along time. I am guessing at least 10-20 years. He would most likely started in the 1930-40's so he may have trained with Ueshiba and Takeda or his son was teaching. I am guessing your teacher is Chinese if so it should be easy to find his name in the books for Daito ryu and Aikido for that time period.
If he trained in Daito ryu he may have been friends with Ueshiba and already skilled so I'd think he would have achieved a pretty high rank in Aikido.
 

jks9199

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So, your "Krav Maga" training was from unnamed military personnel. The US military doesn't use Krav Maga. Some individuals have undoubtedly trained in it -- but I'd be skeptical of you having learned Krav that way. Care to name a couple techniques that you learned?

Alex... You don't know half of what you think you do. You've got a thorough background in taekwondo, in several forms. You count your "training" in things in a bizarre manner. By your standards, I suppose I've training Krav Maga (actually, I have a very specific instructor license in particular range of Krav Maga techniques), bagua, taekwondo, and lots more. Nope. I train in Bando. For longer than you've lived. I don't consider myself to have mastered it, though there are those who say I know a fair bit. Don't know. I still find time to train with others, and to work on things from my teacher's earliest lessons. I've been exposed to and learned a bit of the rest, in narrow circumstances.
 

Ray B

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First my I ask, is this the Alexander Borschel that we are talking with?

I find it interesting that you list the Red Ranger as a point of expertise...

"The Red Power Ranger when the series first took off at the beginning of the decade, features a martial artist using Chung Do Kwan. Who happened to be taught by the same person who taught me."

Also to clarify, Tang Soo Do is not named so to honor it's Chinese roots. It is the Korean pronunciation of Kara Te Do (before the kanji change to empty).

I try not to get into these kind of pissing matches, and to respond by correcting the young man is only giving him the information that he is fishing for.
Why should we give him all the answers when we have put in the time and effort.

Alex is a young man trying to make himself out to be greater than he really is.
He is trying to build his street credit here but is not doing a good job of it.
 
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K-man

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Bob Hubbard

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Moderator Note:

This thread has been moved to Forum:
The Great Debate due to excessive forum disruption surrounding the OP. We have not vetted this thread for content. If members other than the OP wish it restored please contact the Administrators.

 

Ray B

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After skimming over his posts, I'm speechless.
Clearly not someone worth my time and more so, not someone I want to give my hard earned insights to...
 

dancingalone

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I must have been under a rock...

I am sorry I wasted the time replying in a serious fashion to this guy.
 

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