'Okinawan Karate'

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Zenjael

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Let's call the stance 'natural stance'. The Shorin Ryu stance is similar to the Goju stance. It is not exaggerated like Shotokan. Goju Kai is similar in that its stances are deeper and lower than the Okinawan Goju.


Similar is not the same as, but when it's the same, it's the same. I consider there to be 3 types of 'front-stances' in martial arts, a very deep one, a medium, but still considered deep one, and the higher found in karate. I might argue that there is a more relaxed type than that, like a front stance found in some chinese martial arts, but at that point it's a walking stance.

All martial arts strike through the target. Not knowing the ins and outs of Issin Ryu, I just watched some of their kata. It is not at all long in stance and the guy I watched was perfectly balanced. I fail to understand why you would think you need bulk. That doesn't make any sense to me. As to the high kicks, Okinawan karate doesn't go much for high kicks. That's more Shotokan, Kyokushin and other Japanese varieties. You said youself that Bruce Lee didn't have a high kick in his style until he learned it from TKD. However, he also said something along the lines of; 'flashy is for the screen. The things you use in real life just wouldn't be exciting enough on the street.'


From my understanding the motion is less of a push through, and more of a strike which from the momentum of your full body moving forward, drives the strike in without needing to twist or torque. It's short, and powerful movements, are not very effectual when you are small. The issue is not that there is no balance; for the strikes in Isshin their stances are more than capable of providing the base needed, but when you try to operate a swinging round-kick, or the more complicated kicks from Taekyon, the stances begin to lack as they weren't designed for kicks like that. For one thing, it's trying to force circular techniques down the throat of a linear system.


Certainly Shorin Ryu was based on Chinese Kung Fu, but Shotokan? The base for Shorin Ryu is Shuri-Te.

I am not sure if I said shotokan is based on chinese martial arts, but I do not believe it is. I believe I stated it is Tang Soo Do which is based off Chinese Kempo, but this is readily aparent when you translate tang soo do and it is supposedly 'chinese way of the hand'. Go-figure. That name was apparently made up by Won Kuk Lee as well.

I have to wonder how much of MA, especially TKD, is just shill. There is really not enough difference despite what I wrote about between the kwans for there to be 9, and much of the division is political, which is stupid for a martial art. At least to me it is.
 

Bill Mattocks

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It's short, and powerful movements, are not very effectual when you are small.

Shimabuku Soke:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatsuo_Shimabuku

He was a very small person by American standards. He was devastatingly powerful and again I ask why would he invent a system he himself could not be proficient in?

The answer, not surprisingly, is that your statement is incorrect.

Please stop making statements like that about an art you clearly know nothing about.
 

clfsean

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Couple of points...

1 - No such critter as "Chinese Kempo". This is an Americanism. Regardless of what you see out there, literally the words don't match. It's like saying "Kobe Fried Chicken" or a "Centerfire Musket". Chinese practice quan fa or kuen faht depending on the dialect. They do not practice kempo.

2 - TSD is more closely related to JMA than anything CMA. I know what they say & I've seen a couple of advanced hyungs of theirs. I see no more CMA influence there than in Shotokan. Really & truly the only OMA styles that display any concrete CMA origins in my experience & opinion, are Goju ryu & Uechi ryu.

In Shorin ryu, I know the name pays respects back to CMAs, but I'm not seeing CMAs in how they move.
 

Josh Oakley

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Couple of points...

1 - No such critter as "Chinese Kempo". This is an Americanism. Regardless of what you see out there, literally the words don't match. It's like saying "Kobe Fried Chicken" or a "Centerfire Musket". Chinese practice quan fa or kuen faht depending on the dialect. They do not practice kempo.

Bit of a tough sell. The word "kenpo" is a translation of "quan fa". And there are no shortage of people who would disagree with you about the term "chinese" being mismatched to "kenpo"

But I'll let someone a little more versed in the history go into detail.
 

K-man

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[/COLOR]Similar is not the same as, but when it's the same, it's the same. I consider there to be 3 types of 'front-stances' in martial arts, a very deep one, a medium, but still considered deep one, and the higher found in karate. I might argue that there is a more relaxed type than that, like a front stance found in some chinese martial arts, but at that point it's a walking stance.

OK, for the sake of simplicity, they are the same. We have numerous stances but unless you understand their purpose then there is no point going deeper into it. The very deep stance is more a Japanese thing. When you talk about a relaxed type of walking stance then that is pretty much motto dachi in karate. Your talk of 'higher' stance is not right. It is a natural stance full stop. It is Shotokan, Goju Kai and some of the CMAs that have a low stance.

From my understanding the motion is less of a push through, and more of a strike which from the momentum of your full body moving forward, drives the strike in without needing to twist or torque. It's short, and powerful movements, are not very effectual when you are small. The issue is not that there is no balance; for the strikes in Isshin their stances are more than capable of providing the base needed, but when you try to operate a swinging round-kick, or the more complicated kicks from Taekyon, the stances begin to lack as they weren't designed for kicks like that. For one thing, it's trying to force circular techniques down the throat of a linear system.

I'm speaking on behalf of Bill but I will back Bill's tate tsuki against your twisting punch any day. I believe what you are claiming is a myth put out to explain the twist to gullible Westerners.

I am not sure if I said shotokan is based on chinese martial arts, but I do not believe it is. I believe I stated it is Tang Soo Do which is based off Chinese Kempo, but this is readily aparent when you translate tang soo do and it is supposedly 'chinese way of the hand'. Go-figure. That name was apparently made up by Won Kuk Lee as well.

Shotokan is based on Shuri-Te, which was strongly influenced by Kung Fu. Nothing to do with Tang Soo Do, unless you are talking of the Korean version of the Chinese name 'Tang Shou Dao' which is the same as China Hand or Kara-Te. That name didn't go to Korea until much later.
Think this could be a late night!
 

clfsean

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Bit of a tough sell. The word "kenpo" is a translation of "quan fa". And there are no shortage of people who would disagree with you about the term "chinese" being mismatched to "kenpo"

But I'll let someone a little more versed in the history go into detail.

Let me rephrase & that might help. This is a peeve of mine. You won't find any serious TCMA practitioner calling what they do kempo. We don't do kempo. We practice wu shu/mo suet or quan fa/kuen faht. Even then, the quan fa/kuen faht terms normally have very specific ideas behind their usage.

Kempo is Okinawan. We don't practice Okinawan MAs. Okinawans may call what was learned in China "kempo" because that is their translation, but to say something is Chinese Kempo as a defined term is to like calling ramen, spaghetti.
 

K-man

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Hoooooold on there mate. Knowing something is not the same as training. I have done Isshin exercisizes for about the last 3 year now. There is a large school in the area, and so we have a few people who come in now and again and train with us once a week, and they teach, using the format, and techniques of isshin ryu karate. Have I done some drills? Sure. Have I seen the kata, and learned one or two, I did, at one point two years back. While I enjoy the insight the Nidan who practices Isshin brings, the art just isn't one which jives how I operate in both fighting and self-defense. I mean no disrespect toward it, just that it is one of those I am not interested in, and don't feel is for me.

Alex, Alex you're at it again. You are making ambiguous statements. "Knowing something is not he same as training." in the para above you say that you have done Issin Ryu exercises for 3 years. Does that mean you have trained Issin Ryu for 3 years or have you had these people come in every so often for 3 years or did the come in very week? The fact that it is not for you is fine. It's not for me either, but for a totally different reason. I'm happy with what I am training and to train Issin Ryu would mean that I wouldn't be doing justice to either. However, if Issin Ryu was the only option for me in a given area, I would join up tomorrow. You felt you needed an excuse so you bag it and in doing so make yourself look silly because the facts don't back your words.

Currently a person practicing with us is testing for their shodan in Shotokan at the end of spring. He heads our martial arts club. As I am a student at GMU, my participation is on an advisory role, though I oft assume instruction. In the last few weeks, with spring break, and my recent illness, I've had to step back on instructing. Can't do a decent split stretch while puking, let alone a flying tornado roundhouse lol. He has been training for close to that time, though one year less. His instructor is a sandan, and is not a master. I have had prior experience with shotokan karate from Mortal Kombat. Just kidding, we had a number of people who when they went to college and came back during the holidays, took up shotokan at one of the schools in Virginia (but still a ways a way) which had a shotokan club so they could at least still train. When they returned, usually with a higher rank each time (One was a 2nd dan in Chung do Kwan, and a Shodan in Shotokan about a year before Master Khan retired) they were happy to pass on the teachings. At one point I used to be able to perform every kata from Shotokan save the kata to pass to shodan. Then Khan's closed when he retired. I was incredibly dissapointed and didn't continue training in it. Much to my surprise a few years later at NVCC, the person who leads the martial arts club is also a practitioner, and it is also the martial art the university offers to teach for 1 credit.

I specifically asked you how long you have trained Shotokan. I am assuming from your answer that you have trained it about the same as Issin Ryu. That is, you haven't.

I think I would like to spend some time actually furthering my knowledge of shotokan, and actually practice it in the sense of focusing on it and just it until about nidan. I feel it has become so widespread because of its success in offering an incredibly good balance. Tae Kwon Do has great offense, while Aikido has superb defense. Karate, specifically Shotokan, I think has the perfect balance.

I am totally lost. You say you have trained TKD which is loosely based on Shotokan but think that Shotokan in better balanced than TKD. Then into the mix you throw Aikido. Alex, I'll ask you the same question. Where did you study Aikido, who with and for how long? I ask because once again you have demonstrated that you don't understand a particular MA. Aikido might be defensive in your eyes but it actually is offensive when you are attacked. You enter with irimi, you don't defend as such. You can even be the attacker if you so choose but that's for another time.

I would welcome that. He is very close to the people at TKD, though sadly I have only gotten to meet with him on occasion, and train with him even less so. It's been 3 years, I doubt he'd recall me from TKD Academy, where he teaches their current master, Mr. Frasier.

Yes, well it seems you didn't spend much time with Mr Murray either. That explains why you didn't even know the style of karate he was teaching.

Master Murray is a phenomenal teacher. I highly advise anybody interested in the arts he teaches to contact him if interested on his insight. I have heard he CAN be hard to reach at times, but he gives many seminars between here, NYC, the west coast, Japan and the UK. We're lucky if we get to have him come in twice a week, and I say that just now returning to that particular school.
Perhaps you could answer the questions I have posed. Namely for your Shotokan karate, your Krav Maga and your Aikido, where did you train, with whom did you train and for how long did you train? That will give us a good understanding of where you are coming from.
 
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MJS

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Sigh...I wasn't going to involve myself in this potential train wreck, but I'm sitting at work with nothing better going on, so I figured, what the hell...may as well jump into the pool. :D

I've been training in Kenpo and Arnis the longest. I do not claim to know every single ounce of history, however, I know enough. I feel pretty confident that I could answer most questions pertaining to those arts, and if I couldn't, I have sources to get that info. from. I've jumped into the TKD sections here, the WC sections, the BJJ section, even the Ninjutsu section, and posted questions. One thing that I do not do, nor will I ever, is go into those sections, and start talking like I know all there is to know about TKD, when in reality, I have never trained in it a day of my life..lol.

I think thats what we're seeing here. We see someone saying things, making claims, and being countered by others that know alot more than said individual, yet said individual doesn't want to listen. Go figure...lol.
 

MJS

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Perhaps you could answer the questions I have posed. Namely for your Shotokan karate, your Krav Maga and your Aikido, where did you train, with whom did you train and for how long did you train? That will give us a good understanding of where you are coming from.

Tell ya what...the :popcorn: and :cheers:
are on me, while we wait, for what will most likely be forever, for an answer to these questions.
 

K-man

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Let me rephrase & that might help. This is a peeve of mine. You won't find any serious TCMA practitioner calling what they do kempo. We don't do kempo. We practice wu shu/mo suet or quan fa/kuen faht. Even then, the quan fa/kuen faht terms normally have very specific ideas behind their usage.

Kempo is Okinawan. We don't practice Okinawan MAs. Okinawans may call what was learned in China "kempo" because that is their translation, but to say something is Chinese Kempo as a defined term is to like calling ramen, spaghetti.
Hey, I don't practise Kenpo either. It's not an Okinawan term, it's more an American term. From my understanding Ed Parker was the first to use it in the US. I think he named his style "American Kenpo Karate". :)
 

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Knowing how to shoot, does not mean one can. I say that as someone with family in military as a captain of a shooting team, and a member who almost went to the olympics in 1980

The Moscow Olympics? That would be quite impressive...

someone of nearly 2 decades they can't differentiate between two martial art styles which originated more than the width of California apart in distance. It's insulting to me at that point.

The main issue here, is that even though you claim to have over two decades of experience, you have displayed a lack of fundamental knowledge about these systems. As you asserted above, knowing about something without having had any kind of real practice in it doesn't convey you a lot of knowledge.

I hate playing the card of experience, but I do have it in karate, though I have no rank.

Please refresh my memory... I thought you had a shodan in "Okinawan Karate?"

http://betterfly.com/va/fairfax/combat-sports-martial-arts-teachers/user-32427

I freely admit- it is not my forte. But TKD, and Chung Do Kwan especially, are, and considering Chung Do Kwans utilization of techniques from karate, that might make me in a tiny bit knowledgeable about how those karate techniques are used. I also have no rank in jiujitsu, it doesn't mean I don't know how to use the techniques or their application, it just means I didn't bother to test, and had teachers, who honored my request that I progress at a rate of per technique, instead of by belt.

You also claimed 10+ years of training in Jiu Jitsu, yet no ranking? If you came from a respectable school, I really doubt that your sensei would allow you to essentially "audit" these classes, if you were solidly training in them.


It isn't something to assume. I have practiced a style which by more than half is composed of okinawan based karate techniques... and you tell me that after practicing it nearly a decade, and the roots of TKD from its original kicking style from 19 years, is a bit like me telling you you don't know a shirt from your shoes.

I thought that you have only practiced your "Okinawan Karate" for 5+ years? If I am wrong, you may want to update your lofty list of accomplishments!


If you honestly consider me that ignorant, stupid, or mentally challenged that I cannot differentiate between karate styles... while currently training with a member of Wing Chun, Chung Do Kwan, Shotokan, and Isshin-ryu at the same time, in the same location, than you sir, can eat your hat, while I eat my gi.

You may be able to tell what things look like on the surface, but you really *don't* have a deep understanding of all of those arts.

A real life example is to put somone who does shotokan next to someone who does Chung Do Kwan. Without prior knowledge of them hailing from different styles, would it really be logical to think they are different styles, when that similar, or that one person is perhaps more flexible, so goes deeper, and that their stylistic differences intrinsic to their individuality might be responsible for the differences which might be apparent. I can't with confidence say I can... because Chung Do Kwan IS Shotokan. It just isn't the complete system, and the kicks have been adjusted, and the stances to provide a better base for said kicks.

I've practiced both systems for years (but never at the same time), so I am going to boldly claim that I am *somewhat* qualified to answer this. These two systems are significantly different from each other, and Chung Do Kwan is NOT Shotokan. The fundamental techniques differ quite a bit, in addition to the focus on many mechanics. While it's fair to say that Chung Do Kwan has significant Shotokan influence in it, it isn't the same as Shotokan + modified kicks.





Zenjael's page said:
Description: I have been practicing Tae Kwan Do for over eighteen years, having begun a week after my third birthday.

I have trained at over four schools over those eighteen years, and in Tae Kwon Do achieved the following ranks, in the following styles.

World Taekwondo Federation Style TKD - 2nd Dan, 18+ years

Internation Taekwondo Federation Style TKD - 1st Dan, 10+ years

Chung Do Kwan TKD - 1st Dan, 7+ years

Moo Do Kwan TKD - 3rd Dan (similar in techniques to WTF), 18+ years

O Do Kwan TKD - 1st Dan (This is the Tae Kwon Do system designed for larger/taller individuals.), 5+ years

Okinawan Karate - 1st Dan, 5+ years

Kendo - 1st Dan, 8+ years

Jiujitsu - Experienced, 10+ years

Krav Maga - Experienced, 5+ years

Kick-Boxing - 15+ years

Boxing - 3+ years
 

Josh Oakley

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Let me rephrase & that might help. This is a peeve of mine. You won't find any serious TCMA practitioner calling what they do kempo. We don't do kempo. We practice wu shu/mo suet or quan fa/kuen faht. Even then, the quan fa/kuen faht terms normally have very specific ideas behind their usage.

Kempo is Okinawan. We don't practice Okinawan MAs. Okinawans may call what was learned in China "kempo" because that is their translation, but to say something is Chinese Kempo as a defined term is to like calling ramen, spaghetti.

Definitely helps clear up your point. I'd venture even to say that you wouldn't find even NON-serious TCMAers call their stuff kempo. But calling something Chinese kenpo does make sense if someone has incorporated knowledge from Hung Gar and Choi Li Fut, for example, into their curriculum (such as Ed Parker Sr. When he was calling his product Chinese Kenpo)
 
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I've been training in Kenpo and Arnis the longest. I do not claim to know every single ounce of history, however, I know enough. I feel pretty confident that I could answer most questions pertaining to those arts, and if I couldn't, I have sources to get that info. from. I've jumped into the TKD sections here, the WC sections, the BJJ section, even the Ninjutsu section, and posted questions. One thing that I do not do, nor will I ever, is go into those sections, and start talking like I know all there is to know about TKD, when in reality, I have never trained in it a day of my life..lol.

Its not that anyone is claiming they 'know' the entire history of any martial art. We don't have to in this day, transitive memory allows us to remember where we need to look for info which is pertinent toward what we are discussing or learning about, and thankfully, wikipedia is an excellent compendium for cursory information on a subject. Martial arts history is convoluted, often, especially in relation to Korean, Chinese, and Japanese arts.

I think thats what we're seeing here. We see someone saying things, making claims, and being countered by others that know alot more than said individual, yet said individual doesn't want to listen. Go figure...lol.

This is fair. It's not a matter of not listening, or I frankly wouldn't be responding to this at all, but rather that we disagree. Frankly, assuming I'm just wrong on my opinion of things is a bit uncouth in martial arts, from my experience. I generally don't tell people, do it this way, because I might be in err of what their teacher expects, and has instructed. What's to counter? Are we debating? Sparring?

Perhaps you could answer the questions I have posed. Namely for your Shotokan karate, your Krav Maga and your Aikido, where did you train, with whom did you train and for how long did you train? That will give us a good understanding of where you are coming from.

the Aikido training I have had has been through several teachers. One is instructor Cotrell, though that was only for a few months. My teacher of Bagua was very skilled in daito ryu aikijujutsu, and learned Aikido in the 50s around the time they added 'dan' ranking for Aikidoka. I do not believed he was ranked in aikido. He just happened to enjoy Bagua, and was gifted at the art because he treated it less as a combat system, and more as something to add into the meditative circle walking.

Krav Maga I learned from special forces members who frequented my family's home. My mother is a colonel in the army, and these guys were, from what I can gather, the army equivalent to CIA spooks. They wore no uniform, and tried to look civilian. You can always spot them out at an airport.


Shimabuku Soke:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatsuo_Shimabuku

He was a very small person by American standards. He was devastatingly powerful and again I ask why would he invent a system he himself could not be proficient in?

The answer, not surprisingly, is that your statement is incorrect.

Please stop making statements like that about an art you clearly know nothing about.

Bill, I am also a small person, and I can cover a range of 10+ feet with a one step-motion kick. I made this kick up, designed it, everything. I have never witnessed another able to do it, much to my regret. It is not for lack of teaching. What works for some, might not for others. Being small doesn't stop us from being able to generate force or momentum, but arts which take advantage of those kind of forces, as opposed to speed or flexibility, are better suited toward larger people. Sure, a small person can do them, just as a small person can do Oh Do Kwan. It's not the same thing, though, as when its in the hands of those best suited toward it. I think the grossest example would be if you stuck a skinny person into a sumo match, even if they knew the style. the question isn't if it's doable, the question is why do it, when there are other paths which can be taken, with less resistance, which go better with your body? I know how to grapple specifically so I can escape from grabs, holds, and throws, not so I can execute them myself. I see no need to when my goal is to hit the vitals, as opposed to put someone on the ground. I do this because I have realized, when I actually go against professional jiujitsu people, who are MASSIVE, I cannot compare. I am happy to just not get hurt, and be able to unentangle from them. At least then, when standing, I can stomp on them if it were the street, and so on.

But Bagua works with my small size; bulk would actually inhibit it. I don't need strength when there are other styles happy to give it to me. Isshin ryu has phenomenal power in my opinion, but this also just makes it easier to redirect them. Same thing for Shotokan. The lunging, aggressive tactile push forward is what works best for bagua to contront, and mitigate. In Karate, in TKD, there is a tendency to want to stand there and just take hits, and so the arts have become oriented for people to operate like that. But if you take an art which specializes in generating tremendous amounts of force this means a couple of things need to be kept in mind; normally, the more force comes at a cost to speed, and additionally, against arts designed to channel force, those arts which generate such tremendous physical force for striking... are only empower the person practicing the channeling art. The more force, the harder it is to control, and it takes next to no force to just position one's arm in a way to shift their strike a fraction to the left or right, and their power disintegrate harmlessly against the air.

You want to know the easiest way to take down a practioner of Bagua, or Aikido? An Armbar. Simple, crude, and they get so close its nearly unavoidable at times if you do it right.





1 - No such critter as "Chinese Kempo". This is an Americanism. Regardless of what you see out there, literally the words don't match. It's like saying "Kobe Fried Chicken" or a "Centerfire Musket". Chinese practice quan fa or kuen faht depending on the dialect. They do not practice kempo.

I concur with this. TKD, likewise, just translates out into way of the hand and foot. Whose way? Why? I find korean arts lacking because they are kind of generic. Anytime you just decide to create a martial art to represent your national identity, and assemble a dozen masters to come up with something, in the end it's going to get a little wonky. That's my theory for why half of TKD looks like TKD, and the other like Karate, at least.

2 - TSD is more closely related to JMA than anything CMA. I know what they say & I've seen a couple of advanced hyungs of theirs. I see no more CMA influence there than in Shotokan. Really & truly the only OMA styles that display any concrete CMA origins in my experience & opinion, are Goju ryu & Uechi ryu.

In Shorin ryu, I know the name pays respects back to CMAs, but I'm not seeing CMAs in how they move.

Even then Uechi is debatable because Kanbun Uechi incorporated outside techniques while in china. That's not a bad thing, but if asking for 'pure' Okinawan karate... it gets a little fuzzy between the lines I think.
 

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Its not that anyone is claiming they 'know' the entire history of any martial art. We don't have to in this day, transitive memory allows us to remember where we need to look for info which is pertinent toward what we are discussing or learning about, and thankfully, wikipedia is an excellent compendium for cursory information on a subject. Martial arts history is convoluted, often, especially in relation to Korean, Chinese, and Japanese arts.



This is fair. It's not a matter of not listening, or I frankly wouldn't be responding to this at all, but rather that we disagree. Frankly, assuming I'm just wrong on my opinion of things is a bit uncouth in martial arts, from my experience. I generally don't tell people, do it this way, because I might be in err of what their teacher expects, and has instructed. What's to counter? Are we debating? Sparring?



the Aikido training I have had has been through several teachers. One is instructor Cotrell, though that was only for a few months. My teacher of Bagua was very skilled in daito ryu aikijujutsu, and learned Aikido in the 50s around the time they added 'dan' ranking for Aikidoka. I do not believed he was ranked in aikido. He just happened to enjoy Bagua, and was gifted at the art because he treated it less as a combat system, and more as something to add into the meditative circle walking.

Krav Maga I learned from special forces members who frequented my family's home. My mother is a colonel in the army, and these guys were, from what I can gather, the army equivalent to CIA spooks. They wore no uniform, and tried to look civilian. You can always spot them out at an airport.




Bill, I am also a small person, and I can cover a range of 10+ feet with a one step-motion kick. I made this kick up, designed it, everything. I have never witnessed another able to do it, much to my regret. It is not for lack of teaching. What works for some, might not for others. Being small doesn't stop us from being able to generate force or momentum, but arts which take advantage of those kind of forces, as opposed to speed or flexibility, are better suited toward larger people. Sure, a small person can do them, just as a small person can do Oh Do Kwan. It's not the same thing, though, as when its in the hands of those best suited toward it. I think the grossest example would be if you stuck a skinny person into a sumo match, even if they knew the style. the question isn't if it's doable, the question is why do it, when there are other paths which can be taken, with less resistance, which go better with your body? I know how to grapple specifically so I can escape from grabs, holds, and throws, not so I can execute them myself. I see no need to when my goal is to hit the vitals, as opposed to put someone on the ground. I do this because I have realized, when I actually go against professional jiujitsu people, who are MASSIVE, I cannot compare. I am happy to just not get hurt, and be able to unentangle from them. At least then, when standing, I can stomp on them if it were the street, and so on.

But Bagua works with my small size; bulk would actually inhibit it. I don't need strength when there are other styles happy to give it to me. Isshin ryu has phenomenal power in my opinion, but this also just makes it easier to redirect them. Same thing for Shotokan. The lunging, aggressive tactile push forward is what works best for bagua to contront, and mitigate. In Karate, in TKD, there is a tendency to want to stand there and just take hits, and so the arts have become oriented for people to operate like that. But if you take an art which specializes in generating tremendous amounts of force this means a couple of things need to be kept in mind; normally, the more force comes at a cost to speed, and additionally, against arts designed to channel force, those arts which generate such tremendous physical force for striking... are only empower the person practicing the channeling art. The more force, the harder it is to control, and it takes next to no force to just position one's arm in a way to shift their strike a fraction to the left or right, and their power disintegrate harmlessly against the air.

You want to know the easiest way to take down a practioner of Bagua, or Aikido? An Armbar. Simple, crude, and they get so close its nearly unavoidable at times if you do it right.







I concur with this. TKD, likewise, just translates out into way of the hand and foot. Whose way? Why? I find korean arts lacking because they are kind of generic. Anytime you just decide to create a martial art to represent your national identity, and assemble a dozen masters to come up with something, in the end it's going to get a little wonky. That's my theory for why half of TKD looks like TKD, and the other like Karate, at least.



Even then Uechi is debatable because Kanbun Uechi incorporated outside techniques while in china. That's not a bad thing, but if asking for 'pure' Okinawan karate... it gets a little fuzzy between the lines I think.

Awesome post. I haven't enjoyed something this much in a long time.

Zenjael, you should consider a career in the political arena. I hear it's a great gig, and would still allow ample time for training.
 

MJS

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Its not that anyone is claiming they 'know' the entire history of any martial art. We don't have to in this day, transitive memory allows us to remember where we need to look for info which is pertinent toward what we are discussing or learning about, and thankfully, wikipedia is an excellent compendium for cursory information on a subject. Martial arts history is convoluted, often, especially in relation to Korean, Chinese, and Japanese arts.

Sorry, I disagree. Knowing the history of the art(s) that one trains in, is in fact very important, and is often part of rank exams. Imagine training under a teacher who had to always tell their student, "Hmm..I dont know that answer. Hang on, lemme run and look at wiki and I'll get right back to you." LMFAO.. laughable at best, pathetic at worst. You've made claims, people have questioned those claims, you've failed to answer the questions.



This is fair. It's not a matter of not listening, or I frankly wouldn't be responding to this at all, but rather that we disagree. Frankly, assuming I'm just wrong on my opinion of things is a bit uncouth in martial arts, from my experience. I generally don't tell people, do it this way, because I might be in err of what their teacher expects, and has instructed. What's to counter? Are we debating? Sparring?

I think it is a matter of not listening, because there're people here, who know 10 times more than you, have given you solid advice and you disregard it. Go figure.
 

Grenadier

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Krav Maga I learned from special forces members who frequented my family's home. My mother is a colonel in the army, and these guys were, from what I can gather, the army equivalent to CIA spooks. They wore no uniform, and tried to look civilian. You can always spot them out at an airport.

If they really were government operatives trying to look civilian, you would never know. I'm guessing that they would also have had quite a bit of experience when it came to training one's self to look incognito in public.

Bill, I am also a small person, and I can cover a range of 10+ feet with a one step-motion kick.

If you try to cover 10+ feet with a single one step-motion kick, you're going to be telegraphing it severely. Unless you're some phenomenally well-built person the likes of Bruce Lee, of course.

I made this kick up, designed it, everything. I have never witnessed another able to do it, much to my regret. It is not for lack of teaching. What works for some, might not for others.

If it's really that good of a technique, I think we would have seen it on the WKF stage by now, utilized by the likes of George Kotaka, Shannon Nishi, etc.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Bill, I am also a small person, and I can cover a range of 10+ feet with a one step-motion kick. I made this kick up, designed it, everything. I have never witnessed another able to do it, much to my regret. It is not for lack of teaching. What works for some, might not for others. Being small doesn't stop us from being able to generate force or momentum, but arts which take advantage of those kind of forces, as opposed to speed or flexibility, are better suited toward larger people. Sure, a small person can do them, just as a small person can do Oh Do Kwan. It's not the same thing, though, as when its in the hands of those best suited toward it

You completely side-stepped the statement I made. Shimabuku Soke was a small person and he invented Isshin-Ryu. It is clearly suited for smaller people, SINCE HE WAS ONE. Your opinion of the requirements is noted and rejected; you are incorrect, as should be eminently clear by the fact that the founder of the art was as small as you are. If you cannot make it work, that is YOUR PROBLEM. The art is suited for people of your size, period. Beyond dispute. Anything you say differently is both wrong and insulting. Stop pretending you know anything about Isshin-Ryu, you do not.

And as a side-note, I once again ponder on your inability to address any subject without injecting your 'how great I am' statements. I don't care about the kick you invented and it has nothing to do with the subject. You're pure awesome, we all get that. None of us is impressed but you by your magical powers. Get over yourself.
 
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