OK you can't say sparring is detrimental if you are pro kata. not for the sake of realism.

[drop bear]

You just can't. Sorry does my head in. If you need realism in training. Need to be in the area you are going to fight have access to every tool you could conceivably use because otherwise you will not be able to fight.

Then kata does not fit that module.

So I am sure you can give the value of kata based on its own merits but let's see you give the value of kata based on these merits.

Sparring isn't a necessary part of self defense training. Beyond that, it is detrimental BECAUSE we revert to our training under duress. Unless sparring allows the person the opportunity to de-escalate, escape, evade, use a weapon, improvise a weapon, use the terrain etc. Does sparring usually contain these and other real world elements (lighting, environment, multiple attackers, starting from a position of disadvantage)? No. Does scenario based training contain these elements? Yes.



Do you spar with the possibility that other attackers will join the fight?
Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?
Do you spar with the ability to use a weapon, conventional or improvised?
Do you have the opportunity to de-escalate the situation so the sparring section doesn't even happen?
Do you have the opportunity to escape or evade the situation prior to or during the sparring session?
Do you spar only in a well lit, open space?
Do you spar with a specific rule set that both of you have agreed to abide by?
Do you spar only on a dry surface?
Do you spar only indoors?
Do you spar on stairs, in an elevator, inside a car, in the parking lot between two cars, on a slippery surface that slopes?
Do you spar to a conclusion i.e. you have escaped the situation or the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack?
Do you spar starting at a position of disadvantage i.e your opponent is standing over you or behind you?

 

[K-man]

Can I just ask a simple question. Are we talking Kihon as pictured above or are we talking bunkai?
:asian:

 

[Danny T]

Do you spar with the possibility that other attackers will join the fight?"

In wing chun and pekiti-tirsia; yes. In muay thai and mma sport training; no. In muay thai and mma self-defense training; yes.

Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?

In wing chun; yes. In pekiti-tirsia; 'all' sparring contains multiply opponents w/multiple weapons. In muay thai and mma self-defense training; yes. In muay thai and mma fighter sparring no.

Do you spar with the ability to use a weapon, conventional or improvised?

Yes other than muay thai and mma fight training.

Do you have the opportunity to de-escalate the situation so the sparring section doesn't even happen?

Do we have the opportunity to de-escalate...? Do we use and train verbal sparring for de-escalation; yes.

Do you have the opportunity to escape or evade the situation prior to or during the sparring session?

We create the opportunity and escape if possible. We also train what if you cannot escape because of a family member and what to do to create the opportunity for them to escape.

Do you spar only in a well lit, open space?

No; in the dark outside and inside, in a door way, in the bathroom, in a vehicle, in a hallway, on stairs or steps.

Do you spar with a specific rule set that both of you have agreed to abide by?

For safety Yes.

Do you spar only on a dry surface?

No.

Do you spar only indoors?

No.

Do you spar on stairs, in an elevator, inside a car, in the parking lot between two cars, on a slippery surface that slopes?

Yes.

Do you spar to a conclusion i.e. you have escaped the situation or the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack?

To escape, yes. To the point the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack; more to the point of having physical control. We don't spar to the point the opponent is physically hurt to the point they can't continue for safety.

Do you spar starting at a position of disadvantage i.e your opponent is standing over you or behind you?

Absolutely.

 

[Mephisto]

I'm not sure I understand the OP's stance on the topic. He mentions sparring,kata, and scenario training. All of which have multiple definitions that different practitioners interpret differently. ill share my thoughts.

kata, can range from highly stylized and seemingly impractical movements to the more directly applicable series of strikes. It has its place. IMO it's a decent tool to facilitate creativity and solo training. I don't see the point of a group of students all doing a single man drill together but I guess you've got to learn somehow. I haven't spent a lot of time on kata so I don't put a lot of value in it, it just haant been a big part of the arts I've trained. I did do some tang soo do and their kata seemed very stylized but gave me something to do alone. No it can't replace two man training.

sparring, can differ widely in definition. But the best benefit of sparring is the resistance training. In reality an opponent will resist you, if you're preparing for reality you have to train with a resisting/reacting opponent. If you're not doing that you're not training for reality. Ive seen some guys who consider it sparring when you pad up and throw a half "hearted" attack and freeze while the defender throws a series of full power blows at the padded compliant attacker. If you're not resisting you're not sparring, even if you're wearing pads.

scenario training, great tool can differ widely in realism and can border on larping. No one can train for every scenario and no scenario will be identical to reality but there is surely value to scenario training. Situational awareness and de escalation principals are great tools to have, a lot of this stuff translates to street smarts and that's always a good thing to have. These skills and knowledge can be taught relatively easily at weekend seminars and classes and they have nothing to do with fighting technique but are useful nonetheless. The problem with the scenario guys is they are heavy on "deadly" techniques and multiple opponent invincibility. These are marketing ploys and ignore that fact that anyone facing multiple opponents is screwed and a 120lb guy vs 4 200lb men can't groin kick and knee stomp his way to safety. It largely depends on the situation and the character of the group of men attacking you weather you make it out alive.

in short, all training methods have their value. I still place sparring highest among these methods of you're training for reality. But you must have some compliant training and knowledge before you spar and you must have some sparring before you take on scenario training. Scenario training can emulate reality but it will still never be the same.

 

[Hanzou]

Kata is wonderful exercise and character building. Its also a great padding for belt tests and examinations.

That's about it frankly.

 

[drop bear]

Can I just ask a simple question. Are we talking Kihon as pictured above or are we talking bunkai?
:asian:

Don't know which one does tony blauer do?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M1z_qAv2mK4

 

[drop bear]

In wing chun and pekiti-tirsia; yes. In muay thai and mma sport training; no. In muay thai and mma self-defense training; yes.

In wing chun; yes. In pekiti-tirsia; 'all' sparring contains multiply opponents w/multiple weapons. In muay thai and mma self-defense training; yes. In muay thai and mma fighter sparring no.

Yes other than muay thai and mma fight training.

Do we have the opportunity to de-escalate...? Do we use and train verbal sparring for de-escalation; yes.

We create the opportunity and escape if possible. We also train what if you cannot escape because of a family member and what to do to create the opportunity for them to escape.

No; in the dark outside and inside, in a door way, in the bathroom, in a vehicle, in a hallway, on stairs or steps.

For safety Yes.

No.

No.

Yes.

To escape, yes. To the point the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack; more to the point of having physical control. We don't spar to the point the opponent is physically hurt to the point they can't continue for safety.

Absolutely.

Wait that is the arguments against sparring specifically quoted. I am suggesting they are the same arguments against kata. I could have changed the quotes to make that a bit more understandable.

 

[Mephisto]

Wait that is the arguments against sparring specifically quoted. I am suggesting they are the same arguments against kata. I could have changed the quotes to make that a bit more understandable.

You could have been much more clear in the op

 

[K-man]

Kata is wonderful exercise and character building. Its also a great padding for belt tests and examinations.

That's about it frankly.

Now that you have said that I hope you now will leave the thread to those who want to discuss the OP. You know nothing, that is nothing about kata. Why disrupt this thread?

 

[K-man]

Don't know which one does tony blauer do?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M1z_qAv2mK4

I would have called that advanced kata, but really it is more verging on one man bunkai if there could be such a thing. That is different to what we do but if I did my bunkai without a partner it would be along those lines.
:asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

You just can't. Sorry does my head in. If you need realism in training. Need to be in the area you are going to fight have access to every tool you could conceivably use because otherwise you will not be able to fight.

Then kata does not fit that module.

So I am sure you can give the value of kata based on its own merits but let's see you give the value of kata based on these merits.

Sparring isn't a necessary part of self defense training. Beyond that, it is detrimental BECAUSE we revert to our training under duress. Unless sparring allows the person the opportunity to de-escalate, escape, evade, use a weapon, improvise a weapon, use the terrain etc. Does sparring usually contain these and other real world elements (lighting, environment, multiple attackers, starting from a position of disadvantage)? No. Does scenario based training contain these elements? Yes.



Do you spar with the possibility that other attackers will join the fight?
Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?
Do you spar with the ability to use a weapon, conventional or improvised?
Do you have the opportunity to de-escalate the situation so the sparring section doesn't even happen?
Do you have the opportunity to escape or evade the situation prior to or during the sparring session?
Do you spar only in a well lit, open space?
Do you spar with a specific rule set that both of you have agreed to abide by?
Do you spar only on a dry surface?
Do you spar only indoors?
Do you spar on stairs, in an elevator, inside a car, in the parking lot between two cars, on a slippery surface that slopes?
Do you spar to a conclusion i.e. you have escaped the situation or the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack?
Do you spar starting at a position of disadvantage i.e your opponent is standing over you or behind you?

So… you're saying you don't understand what kata is, what different forms of kata are, what the variety of kata actually are, what the arguments against sparring are, what the arguments for kata are, what the realities of self defence training are, or, well… anything you're talking about.

Does that about sum it up?

Kata is wonderful exercise and character building. Its also a great padding for belt tests and examinations.

That's about it frankly.

Ah, Horatio… same thing. Despite your black belt in Shotokan, you really didn't learn much there, did you?

Wait that is the arguments against sparring specifically quoted. I am suggesting they are the same arguments against kata. I could have changed the quotes to make that a bit more understandable.

Yeah, you could have been clearer… I got what you were meaning (in part, at least) only because I saw the posts you took the above from… but if you think the same arguments can be made against kata, then you didn't understand the argument in the first place… nor do you understand kata… or reality self defence training… or, well… anything anyone has ever told you.

Seriously, guys, you both need to either accept that not everyone subscribes to your centrist and limited understanding of martial arts, and get that, just because people don't agree with your ideas, that doesn't make them wrong… or, if you're going to insist on such proselytising your views, at least make an effort to grasp what other people are telling you. It's getting ridiculous even engaging in any threads with either of you, as you both constantly try to tell other people the problems in what they're doing while having no clue about what they do, and not listening when you're given answers and insight.

 

[drop bear]

You could have been much more clear in the op

Sorry.

 

[drop bear]

So… you're saying you don't understand what kata is, what different forms of kata are, what the variety of kata actually are, what the arguments against sparring are, what the arguments for kata are, what the realities of self defence training are, or, well… anything you're talking about.

Does that about sum it up?



Ah, Horatio… same thing. Despite your black belt in Shotokan, you really didn't learn much there, did you?



Yeah, you could have been clearer… I got what you were meaning (in part, at least) only because I saw the posts you took the above from… but if you think the same arguments can be made against kata, then you didn't understand the argument in the first place… nor do you understand kata… or reality self defence training… or, well… anything anyone has ever told you.

Seriously, guys, you both need to either accept that not everyone subscribes to your centrist and limited understanding of martial arts, and get that, just because people don't agree with your ideas, that doesn't make them wrong… or, if you're going to insist on such proselytising your views, at least make an effort to grasp what other people are telling you. It's getting ridiculous even engaging in any threads with either of you, as you both constantly try to tell other people the problems in what they're doing while having no clue about what they do, and not listening when you're given answers and insight.

As hominum post dude. Play the ball not the man.

I was asked to do this thread by the way.

 

[Tez3]

Kata is wonderful exercise and character building. Its also a great padding for belt tests and examinations.

That's about it frankly.

Then you haven't seen any of Iain Abernethy's work with Bunkai, absolutely practical work for self defence. Others do good work in this area too.

Kata is rarely good exercise and doesn't actually build character, the Bunkai on the other hand. Too many people don't actually know what kata is for and just go through the motions of following whatever their instructor shows them, it's a shame, they are missing out on so much.

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/bunkai-karates-forgotten-95

 

[Chris Parker]

As hominum post dude. Play the ball not the man.

I was asked to do this thread by the way.

Okay, then let's do it this way…

Please explain your understanding of what kata is, and why the same arguments can be levelled at it as were levelled at sparring (for the record, they weren't arguments against sparring, they were highlighting limitations of common-term, "sports" style sparring). Every post you've made shows that you are not in possession of enough understanding to actually be in a position to discuss knowledgeably on this topic… but I'll await your clarification of your understanding first. After that, I'll go through and highlight why I believe you're entirely missed the point (based on current posts and evidence).

Oh, and it's not an ad hominem post if I'm highlighting the issues in the posts themselves… I didn't say anything about yourself or Hanzou other than that you're showing a real lack of knowledge in this area.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I was asked to do this thread by the way.

You are being dishonest with the members of the board that have thus far participated in this thread. You were not asked to start this thread. You began to derail another thread. I suggested the following:

If you're interested in kata and it's value and merits in the martial arts, my suggestion would be to begin a separate thread so as not to deter from this one.

Apparently, you did not follow that suggestion because this thread is a mish-mash of concepts. The goal of which:

• Is to hear yourself talk.
• To up your post count.
• To rail against a foundational concept of the martial arts that it is painfully obvious you don't understand.
• To try to link several concepts together to prove some justification to yourself that others obviously don't agree with.

You have absolutely no depth of knowledge on the subject of kata. But rather than opening up a conversation in which to seek information that would benefit you in your training, you open up this mish-mash of conflicting topics with a preconceived idea already stated clearly in the OP. You are not open to learning from those here with more experience in this area. You are here only to cause conflict. The fact that you don't 'get' something that is a valuable training tool does not automatically invalidate it's value.

All I can add is Don't Feed the Trolls.

 

[MJS]

You just can't. Sorry does my head in. If you need realism in training. Need to be in the area you are going to fight have access to every tool you could conceivably use because otherwise you will not be able to fight.

Then kata does not fit that module.

So I am sure you can give the value of kata based on its own merits but let's see you give the value of kata based on these merits.

Sparring isn't a necessary part of self defense training. Beyond that, it is detrimental BECAUSE we revert to our training under duress. Unless sparring allows the person the opportunity to de-escalate, escape, evade, use a weapon, improvise a weapon, use the terrain etc. Does sparring usually contain these and other real world elements (lighting, environment, multiple attackers, starting from a position of disadvantage)? No. Does scenario based training contain these elements? Yes.



Do you spar with the possibility that other attackers will join the fight?
Do you spar with the possibility that the attacker(s) will have a weapon?
Do you spar with the ability to use a weapon, conventional or improvised?
Do you have the opportunity to de-escalate the situation so the sparring section doesn't even happen?
Do you have the opportunity to escape or evade the situation prior to or during the sparring session?
Do you spar only in a well lit, open space?
Do you spar with a specific rule set that both of you have agreed to abide by?
Do you spar only on a dry surface?
Do you spar only indoors?
Do you spar on stairs, in an elevator, inside a car, in the parking lot between two cars, on a slippery surface that slopes?
Do you spar to a conclusion i.e. you have escaped the situation or the opponent is no longer able to continue the attack?
Do you spar starting at a position of disadvantage i.e your opponent is standing over you or behind you?

I do kata. I think that if one is going to do kata, that they should have an understanding of exactly what they're doing, otherwise, you're doing nothing more than half assed moves. As I've said in the other thread, I do feel that sparring/testing yourself is key, and some sort of testing, should be done, if you absolutely refuse to spar. As for the questions that you asked, which I believe were asked by someone else, in that other thread...I do the majority of that type of training, outside of the dojo. To clarify...when I say 'outside the dojo' I'm talking about when I'm training in the backyard or garage setting, with some of the guys I train with. IMHO though, I do feel that type of training should be done in the dojo as well. Yes, I understand the tradition aspect...hell, I train in a traditional art, with a teacher who was born in Japan, so the idea of the RBSD type of training might be frowned upon by someone like that, but nonetheless, I still feel that it's a key component to SD.

 

[MJS]

Then you haven't seen any of Iain Abernethy's work with Bunkai, absolutely practical work for self defence. Others do good work in this area too.

Kata is rarely good exercise and doesn't actually build character, the Bunkai on the other hand. Too many people don't actually know what kata is for and just go through the motions of following whatever their instructor shows them, it's a shame, they are missing out on so much.

Bunkai - Karate's forgotten 95% | Iain Abernethy

One of the BEST posts so far, on this thread!!! I couldn't agree more with this!!

 

[Buka]

Some say "Kata is the key to Karate". I do not agree.
Some say "Kata is useless." I do not agree
Some say "Kata is a personal journey." Maybe it is, I don't know.
Some say "Kata is everything", others say "it is nothing". Gee, different opinions, who would have figured that?
Some say there is no "Kata in real fighting styles". But I have a Judo buddy who does two man Judo Kata and he kicks my *** every time we train. I have many friends in traditional styles, some kick my *** and some don't. I have many friends in non traditional styles, same thing for them.

The last Kata I did was in the late summer of 1974. I had done a lot of Kata up until then. Why did I stop? No reason, really, just time, I was training in a lot of things, Kata got put on the back burner for some reason. But, looking back with whatever wisdom I've gained through Martial training, I wish I had kept it up. Some of them, anyway, I liked some of them. I'm thinking that I'd be a better Martial Artist now if I kept it up. Certainly wouldn't have hurt.

I remember being in the South Side Gym, an old boxing gym back in the day. I was working out with a group of guys, one of whom was shadow boxing, staying warm, waiting for our turn in the ring, when the subject of Kata came up. I told him, "You're doing Kata right now, you're shadow boxing." He had never even seen a Martial Art, other than boxing. After that, anytime he was shadow boxing or doing mirror work, and someone talked to him, he'd say, "Later, man, I'm doing my Kata right now." He wasn't being disrespectful, he just really liked the term. Now - we run into each other once in a blue moon. Last time I saw him he said, "You should see my grandson doing Kata" and he broke into shadow boxing right there at the gas station. We both laughed. His grandson's a blue belt in Bjj, and he boxes with grandpa on a regular basis.

I think I'm going to start doing Kata again. Who knows, maybe it will keep me off the damn computer.

 

[Steve]

I may be misunderstanding the op. I don't think it's anti-kata. Rather, it's, if you are anti-sparring because it isn't "real", mustn't you also be anti sparring for the same reason?

It's a fair point, IMO, if I understand it correctly.


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