non-telegraph without loosing power, to what extent can training keep power?

[Fungus94]

at least TRYING to do the balancing act, did improve my technique a bit.

After focusing on this the last few weeks I noticed that ALL my spinning kicks have greatly improved, my balance improved and I am more confident using them more frequently in sparring. As I can't kick high the ones I focus on is

- spinning/turning back kick to liver or chest that we discussed in this thread

but the same training improved alot my balance and power in this kick
- spinning roundhouse heel kick to opponents legs or liver, or you can also to it lower almost as a sweep, then tou drop your body weight before you throw it, I love these as they are nice to my back, spinning heel kick to the thigh is effective or hit a the nerve joint between legt and hip, which i nailed twice in sparring to my opponents surprise as they are surpirsed byt the effect even though th power is moderate

 

[marvin81]

After focusing on this the last few weeks I noticed that ALL my spinning kicks have greatly improved, my balance improved and I am more confident using them more frequently in sparring. As I can't kick high the ones I focus on is

- spinning/turning back kick to liver or chest that we discussed in this thread

but the same training improved alot my balance and power in this kick
- spinning roundhouse heel kick to opponents legs or liver, or you can also to it lower almost as a sweep, then tou drop your body weight before you throw it, I love these as they are nice to my back, spinning heel kick to the thigh is effective or hit a the nerve joint between legt and hip, which i nailed twice in sparring to my opponents surprise as they are surpirsed byt the effect even though th power is moderate

What is missing in this and the Kyokushin Sari video and covered in the other videos is the placing of the pivot foot. This spinning hook kick, as drilled in this video, is more open to counters. A clean spinning kick can be telegraphic and has no power if it misses.

Shevchenko's spin timing was too late

Yes and it looks like for that range, she should have chambered the lag close to the body, the leg was too far extended.

To make my statement more accurate, Shevchenko starts on the tracks—from orthodox closed stance, her lead foot (on the "c") lines up with Grasso's rear foot. Her jumping spinning back kick pivot foot lands on the "h." This makes Shevchennko's kick wide and gives her back to Grasso.

 

[Fungus94]

What is missing in this and the Kyokushin Sari video and covered in the other videos is the placing of the pivot foot. This spinning hook kick, as drilled in this video, is more open to counters. A clean spinning kick can be telegraphic and has no power if it misses.

by "clean"? do you you men where you does NOT move the lead foot (to align with opponents lead foot), or one where you just launch it standalone without setup?
In sparring I find the spinning hee/hook low kick to be effective. Safest way it so throw it when opponen changes from orthodox to southpaw, then the range is longer and chance of getting leg caught is very low. IF they expect it, they usually back down, so threatening with it seems to work to to make the opponent back, to create distance for another kick, for example the step behind back/side kick bruce lee style.

When kicking the back leg with the spining heel like on the shinsekai bidoe it is indeed easier to get countered. Unless you nail it and cause the opponent to dip. But the kick itself is the same, but it can have many targets.

To make my statement more accurate, Shevchenko starts on the tracks—from orthodox closed stance, her lead foot (on the "c") lines up with Grasso's rear foot. Her jumping spinning back kick pivot foot lands on the "h." This makes Shevchennko's kick wide and gives her back to Grasso.

Yes I has she spinned earlier it might have worked, I think that was your point. I agree.
But sometimes there is no time, so I think had she tucked/her leg and kept it there during the spin, then her heel would have been right into the left rib. This would have been a good strike even if the leg isnt extended. This is the version I have practive the last week, with power on sack, but I also got a couple of hits in sparring (close range punching)... If you make it right you will retain balance even if then run into you... you will just "bounce back" but not loose balance

 

[silent killer]

upper cut to the jaw...simple as that. nothing faster or more deadly in a real fight

 

[marvin81]

by "clean"? do you you men where you does NOT move the lead foot (to align with opponents lead foot), or one where you just launch it standalone without setup?

Both. Looking at technique only, I believe non-telegraphic spinning back/hook kick is a misnomer. When you rotate, I step. Chinese saying, “If my opponent doesn’t move, I do not move. The instant he moves, I am already there.”

In sparring I find the spinning hee/hook low kick to be effective. Safest way it so throw it when opponen changes from orthodox to southpaw, then the range is longer and chance of getting leg caught is very low. IF they expect it, they usually back down, so threatening with it seems to work to to make the opponent back, to create distance for another kick, for example the step behind back/side kick bruce lee style.

Yes. I am only commenting on the Kyokushin videos that were posted. I don't know what other drills one may do. There are other drills that develop more than just technique. Lure them to change. Then, attack when they can't change...

https://imgur.com/Cu0DBvq

When kicking the back leg with the spining heel like on the shinsekai bidoe it is indeed easier to get countered. Unless you nail it and cause the opponent to dip. But the kick itself is the same, but it can have many targets.

Again, it's easier to get countered because of his foot placement.

Yes I has she spinned earlier it might have worked, I think that was your point. I agree. But sometimes there is no time, so I think had she tucked/her leg and kept it there during the spin, then her heel would have been right into the left rib.

I corrected my point. Her pivot foot placement before spinning was ineffective.
Had Shevchenko spinned earlier she would still have missed, if Grasso took a step as Shevchenko turns her back.

This would have been a good strike even if the leg isnt extended. This is the version I have practive the last week, with power on sack, but I also got a couple of hits in sparring (close range punching)... If you make it right you will retain balance even if then run into you... you will just "bounce back" but not loose balance

What is missing in the Kyokushin Sari video is how to get into that close advantageous position. The Koreshkov GIF showed that.

 

[Fungus94]

What is missing in the Kyokushin Sari video is how to get into that close advantageous position. The Koreshkov GIF showed that.

Ok I see your point now. valid point.

That you end up in that position in Kyokushin and the reason it's now shown is often and artifact from kyokushin rules. It's essentially a close range boxing range, but this last longer as we don't strike to the face, and pushes throws/grabs aren't allowed. It's the boring part of watching kyokushin competitions, that part is indeed not realistic.

 

[HighKick1]

What is missing in this and the Kyokushin Sari video and covered in the other videos is the placing of the pivot foot. This spinning hook kick, as drilled in this video, is more open to counters. A clean spinning kick can be telegraphic and has no power if it misses.



To make my statement more accurate, Shevchenko starts on the tracks—from orthodox closed stance, her lead foot (on the "c") lines up with Grasso's rear foot. Her jumping spinning back kick pivot foot lands on the "h." This makes Shevchennko's kick wide and gives her back to Grasso.

I would love to see the video of Shevchenko. From the pictures, it is hard to tell exactly what happened.
Did Grasso step first, cutting the kick? I think so because, if that is a punch, it is with the left hand.
Shevchenko may have thought she could beat the step of time her spin better. I can't tell.

 

[marvin81]

I would love to see the video of Shevchenko. From the pictures, it is hard to tell exactly what happened.

The sequence starts around 22:20...

Did Grasso step first, cutting the kick? I think so because, if that is a punch, it is with the left hand.

Yes. My correction, they are both in southpaw stance (not orthodox) in closed stance. Grasso takes a hidden step (shuffle) with her rear foot. then steps to the right about 18" and forward with her lead foot throwing the right jab.

Shevchenko may have thought she could beat the step of time her spin better. I can't tell.

Shevchenko appeared to be doing a correct jumping spinning back kick by landing her pivot foot about 8" closer to Grasso's lead foot. Again, Shevchenko failed to control Grasso. Grasso was able to step, as Shevchenko rotated.

 

[HighKick1]

The sequence starts around 22:20...

Yes. My correction, they are both in southpaw stance (not orthodox) in closed stance. Grasso takes a hidden step (shuffle) with her rear foot. then steps to the right about 18" and forward with her lead foot throwing the right jab.


Shevchenko appeared to be doing a correct jumping spinning back kick by landing her pivot foot about 8" closer to Grasso's lead foot. Again, Shevchenko failed to control Grasso. Grasso was able to step, as Shevchenko rotated.

Agree. I think that was just a missed kick because of a well times step.

 

[marvin81]

Agree. I think that was just a missed kick because of a well times step.

And... Shevchenko's perfectly executed spin back kick (per the Shinseikai Karate video) missed. Because, Grasso took 3 slow, forward, narrow steps. Then as Schevchenko's starts her spin (double weighted, can't change, in transition. See TKD clip), Grasso takes a well timed quick 18" wide, forward step to the right while shifting her weight, changing the speed and cadence of her footwork.

"I train it for that thing. It was training. I trained every single day that thing. Because I knew that she did that spinning things. I want to say thank you to my partner Omar Loriano that is here. He trained it with me every single day. Thank you much because this is yours too… Yeah. I training that because I know that she kicks hard. She’s a great athlete. I truly am thankful for that because I train it so so hard like never before in my life."

 

[windwalker099103]

 

[Fungus94]

My question for say ushiro geri (turning back kick), is if you perfect your techiniques - can you make the difference in power zero, or would it, even if you master this kick very WELL that there is STILL a compromise in power?

I feel that, where I am right now as a beginner - I can perform both - but in the advanced version I loose ALOT of power but I think with perfected balance, I can add more POWER into the kick without loosing balance. But the question is - will it EVER be as powerful as the telegraphing tecnhique, or will it will it always be capped to some %power of the telegraphing technique? My hunch is that there will always be a significant difference, am I wrong?

Old issue but as it's something I keep refining, I have a new insight to this.

While there is a slight point to the original hypothesis, the powerloss can be minimized by the right technique, and the insight was slowed due to my own physical problems, which means I simply can't do the optimal technique, and its an issue i have and i think trainning may not help much. I discovered this becasuse its an issue with my right leg, but paradoxally i find it easier to do the optimal technique with the non-dominant leg (even though it makes it harder).

The key was that as i concluded, balance and power simply requires a shift in center of gravity, and this is easily done by moving the lead foot. But if can also be be done by pivoting on ball more than 180 degrees, and then putting down the heel pretty much where i would manually move it with the simpler technique. Then i effectively get the same balance shift.

My conclusion that this seemed close to impossible, was because due to my own body, i couldnt do it. This is still true, but the consluion is that the "right way" to do sometihng is always contexual. So I now have differetn optimal tecniques for the ushiro geri dependong on wether i do it with left or right foot. Both work, but it makes training more confusing as they dont exactly mirror.

 

[Fungus94]

Since i relased myself from trying to follow some ideal technique, I started to just grind the bag and listen to the feedback i get in form of backreaction, and now I am starting to feel how it should be (for me). Both for ushiro geri and ushiro mawashi.

One key for ushiro mawashi is to bent the knee more on impact, and realise that optimal stability is not having the counterforce beeing perpendcitular to the leg as that does not allow adding body weight behind (it gets only limb spin) and it asso buts most stress on the knees.

The feeling I have when i throw this kick is almost like a curve kick and looking at the bag swind the peak force is not perpendicular but beeing say 30-45 degrees off. This way I have tons of power, and maximum stability, and my joins are safe, even if the target does not give in.

When kicking pads you can ignore this, but if you want to kick an elephant in the ***, you can hurt the knee joins of not considering the direction of the counter/stop force. I want it to be more aligne upwards to my hip.

This is not the ideal form I think, but it works for me, and it just feels right an extremel robust. So I learned for sure to take kihon standards with a big grain of salt, and listen to my own body and feedback from the bag. In the beginning if felt unsure if this was good or bad, but I'm getting more confident in trusting and reading the factual feedback i get into the body. If I have balance and acheives max power, it cant be wrong. Thats how i reason. Taking kihon too serious or litteral, was inhibiting me,

 

[_Simon_102]

Since i relased myself from trying to follow some ideal technique, I started to just grind the bag and listen to the feedback i get in form of backreaction, and now I am starting to feel how it should be (for me). Both for ushiro geri and ushiro mawashi.

One key for ushiro mawashi is to bent the knee more on impact, and realise that optimal stability is not having the counterforce beeing perpendcitular to the leg as that does not allow adding body weight behind (it gets only limb spin) and it asso buts most stress on the knees.

The feeling I have when i throw this kick is almost like a curve kick and looking at the bag swind the peak force is not perpendicular but beeing say 30-45 degrees off. This way I have tons of power, and maximum stability, and my joins are safe, even if the target does not give in.

When kicking pads you can ignore this, but if you want to kick an elephant in the ***, you can hurt the knee joins of not considering the direction of the counter/stop force. I want it to be more aligne upwards to my hip.

This is not the ideal form I think, but it works for me, and it just feels right an extremel robust. So I learned for sure to take kihon standards with a big grain of salt, and listen to my own body and feedback from the bag. In the beginning if felt unsure if this was good or bad, but I'm getting more confident in trusting and reading the factual feedback i get into the body. If I have balance and acheives max power, it cant be wrong. Thats how i reason. Taking kihon too serious or litteral, was inhibiting me,

As a few dear instructors have told me, "Find your own karate." This is awesome man, 100% a great direction to head in. Osu

 

[Fungus94]

As a few dear instructors have told me, "Find your own karate." This is awesome man, 100% a great direction to head in. Osu

Thanks for the encouragement. Sounds like wise instructors!

I think doing things your own way, by no means means disrespecting the roots or tradition, I like to think of it as the contrary that by seeing beyond the surface and instead seek the constructing principles in things you show deepest possible respect.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Thanks for the encouragement. Sounds like wise instructors!

I think doing things your own way, by no means means disrespecting the roots or tradition, I like to think of it as the contrary that by seeing beyond the surface and instead seek the constructing principles in things you show deepest possible respect.

I agree with the principle (which is encouraged in traditional karate) and as with all principles there are limits. Tomatoes can be pronounced "tomaytoes" or "tomahtoes" per one's personal/geographic preference, going one's "own way" as you say.. Pronouncing it "toma-toes" is a bit unusual (I've heard of hammer toes, but never toma toes). While the pronunciation is odd the spelling is correct and the meaning is clear, so it works within the limits of respecting the language. Beyond these examples one is in danger of destroying the bunkai of the word. So, there is room for individuality while adhering to the "constructing principles." Knowing where to draw the line requires experience and understanding as well as some intellectual integrity.

 

[Fungus94]

So, there is room for individuality while adhering to the "constructing principles." Knowing where to draw the line requires experience and understanding as well as some intellectual integrity.

This also raises the question of how to identify what are indeed the correct constructing principles. This is of course nothing that is recommended for the complete novice, because it requires some deep thinking.

This is similar to how to understand laws of nature in physics. You can "learn a theory", but not all theories have clearly defined unambigous constructing principles, some are just empirical or ad hoc, and the ultimate justification is that they are so far corroborated by experimental results. What the correct constructing principles are, to be used for a rational generation of new hypothesis for extending the domain of validity of the theory, is often not clear even to the founders, it is sometimes open questions, subject to interpretation. Sometimes the founders had some personal motivation for things, but this is often lost in the final "polished" theory which is a result. The path of how to create it is rarely taught even in physics.

These excact questions are extremely intriguing and well worth contemplating. This is one of the things that attracts me to MA as well.

 

[isshinryuronin]

This also raises the question of how to identify what are indeed the correct constructing principles. This is of course nothing that is recommended for the complete novice, because it requires some deep thinking.

This is similar to how to understand laws of nature in physics. You can "learn a theory", but not all theories have clearly defined unambigous constructing principles, some are just empirical or ad hoc, and the ultimate justification is that they are so far corroborated by experimental results. What the correct constructing principles are, to be used for a rational generation of new hypothesis for extending the domain of validity of the theory, is often not clear even to the founders, it is sometimes open questions, subject to interpretation. Sometimes the founders had some personal motivation for things, but this is often lost in the final "polished" theory which is a result. The path of how to create it is rarely taught even in physics.

These excact questions are extremely intriguing and well worth contemplating. This is one of the things that attracts me to MA as well.

The good news is that we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We stand upon the shoulders of giants, the masters who thru many years of multi-sourced learning and application in actual combat developed the principles of karate over a couple of centuries. Much of the technology in use today stems from the realm of combat and survival - a potent motivator for refining principles of physics so they corroborate not only "experimental results" but actual use. Fighting is not hypothesis or theory. Its basic principles have been well validated even though past practitioners didn't comprehend the neuro-muscular basis for them - it doesn't take a PhD to know how to hammer a nail, though for some it can be an intriguing study.

The "exact questions...worth contemplating" I think are mainly those of how we implement those principles and adapt them to our individual physical and mental natures (and to some, but important extent, how to adapt our nature to work within the principles). This is where experimentation and creativity enter - to see how we can make it all work for us.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I came across this today and wondered if anyone touched on the concept of "Hiding Movement Within Movement" to create non-telegraphed attacks. This concept is basic 101 for all martial arts applications. I don't remember much about what was said in this thread, so I 'll just throw it out there.

Keeping the concept very simple. Here's an example

 

[marvin81]

Since i relased myself from trying to follow some ideal technique, I started to just grind the bag and listen to the feedback i get in form of backreaction, and now I am starting to feel how it should be (for me). Both for ushiro geri and ushiro mawashi.

One key for ushiro mawashi is to bent the knee more on impact, and realise that optimal stability is not having the counterforce beeing perpendcitular to the leg as that does not allow adding body weight behind (it gets only limb spin) and it asso buts most stress on the knees.

The feeling I have when i throw this kick is almost like a curve kick and looking at the bag swind the peak force is not perpendicular but beeing say 30-45 degrees off. This way I have tons of power, and maximum stability, and my joins are safe, even if the target does not give in.

When kicking pads you can ignore this, but if you want to kick an elephant in the ***, you can hurt the knee joins of not considering the direction of the counter/stop force. I want it to be more aligne upwards to my hip.

This is not the ideal form I think, but it works for me, and it just feels right an extremel robust. So I learned for sure to take kihon standards with a big grain of salt, and listen to my own body and feedback from the bag. In the beginning if felt unsure if this was good or bad, but I'm getting more confident in trusting and reading the factual feedback i get into the body. If I have balance and acheives max power, it cant be wrong. Thats how i reason. Taking kihon too serious or litteral, was inhibiting me,

Learn the K-1 lightweight champion's back kick!

May 25, 2024
Yuki Yoza

At 7:05, Yuki, Kyokushin and highly ranked kickboxer, shows a feint and “kick the ground firmly when you land...”

Travis shows how to eliminate your aligning step just by “moving people into your throws.” You by leading/walking your opponent into your back kick (, strike, or throw).