non-telegraph without loosing power, to what extent can training keep power?

JowGaWolf

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I bolded and replied to your concept of "A good example would be the 'superman punch' using the posture of a kick to set up the punch" and included my previous comments. Again, Koreshkov uses control the lead hand (posture) to set up the spin back kick.

Koreshkov technique drill.


Again, Koreshkov uses control the lead hand (posture) to set up the spin back kick.


I didn't see the comment about the superman punch. I either read over it or was thinking something else.
 
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Fungus

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Yep. It always works for me.
Not for me :rolleyes: When I landed two liver kicks lately it was on someone at my own rank. It rarely works on thos of high rank. They just smile and step back and recognize a "beginners feint" I guess.
 

JowGaWolf

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Not for me :rolleyes: When I landed two liver kicks lately it was on someone at my own rank. It rarely works on thos of high rank. They just smile and step back and recognize a "beginners feint" I guess.
Distraction works on higher ranks. You just have to have something that districts the in the way that you need them to be distracted. The way that works for me is to change how I approach sparring.
Step 1. Spar to learn
Step 2. Take note of how they respond to your attacks. This will allow you to "Predict what they will do" what you'll discover is that the will have a preferred reaction to things like double jabs, single jabs, and kicks. If the have more than 2 responses to your attack then don't use that attack. You want to use attacks where they will do 1 or two things. Pay attention to their stance when you do this as they may react differently when in a different stance. Once you get 2 or 3 reactions that you can "Predict then start using things to trigger those reactions as a way to set up your "real" attack. Your distractions will work better once you map your sparring partners this way.

The key to using this method is sparring to learn and actively watching and keeping a record of how your sparring partner reacting to you. The better you get with your observations the easier will get.
 

JowGaWolf

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Not for me :rolleyes: When I landed two liver kicks lately it was on someone at my own rank. It rarely works on thos of high rank. They just smile and step back and recognize a "beginners feint" I guess.
Distraction works on higher ranks. You just have to have something that districts the in the way that you need them to be distracted. The way that works for me is to change how I approach sparring.
Step 1. Spar to learn
Step 2. Take note of how they respond to your attacks. This will allow you to "Predict what they will do" what you'll discover is that the will have a preferred reaction to things like double jabs, single jabs, and kicks. If the have more than 2 responses to your attack then don't use that attack. You want to use attacks where they will do 1 or two things. Pay attention to their stance when you do this as they may react differently when in a different stance. Once you get 2 or 3 reactions that you can "Predict then start using things to trigger those reactions as a way to set up your "real" attack. Your distractions will work better once you map your sparring partners this way.

The key to using this method is sparring to learn and actively watching and keeping a record of how your sparring partner reacting to you. The better you get with your observations the easier will get.






Distraction works on higher ranks. You just have to have something that districts the in the way that you need them to be distracted. The way that works for me is to change how I approach sparring.
Step 1. Spar to learn
Step 2. Take note of how they respond to your attacks. This will allow you to "Predict what they will do" what you'll discover is that the will have a preferred reaction to things like double jabs, single jabs, and kicks. If the have more than 2 responses to your attack then don't use that attack. You want to use attacks where they will do 1 or two things. Pay attention to their stance when you do this as they may react differently when in a different stance. Once you get 2 or 3 reactions that you can "Predict then start using things to trigger those reactions as a way to set up your "real" attack. Your distractions will work better once you map your sparring partners this way.

The key to using this method is sparring to learn and actively watching and keeping a record of how your sparring partner reacting to you. The better you get with your observations the easier will get.
The last person I did this to was to @Tony Dismukes . For me I took note of which side he prefers to attack on. Is it the left? The center聶 The right? Based on my stance.

Addition. I also find it easier to remember a sparring session and what happened when I spar to learn.
 
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Fungus

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Distraction works on higher ranks. You just have to have something that districts the in the way that you need them to be distracted. The way that works for me is to change how I approach sparring.
Step 1. Spar to learn
Step 2. Take note of how they respond to your attacks. This will allow you to "Predict what they will do" what you'll discover is that the will have a preferred reaction to things like double jabs, single jabs, and kicks. If the have more than 2 responses to your attack then don't use that attack. You want to use attacks where they will do 1 or two things. Pay attention to their stance when you do this as they may react differently when in a different stance. Once you get 2 or 3 reactions that you can "Predict then start using things to trigger those reactions as a way to set up your "real" attack. Your distractions will work better once you map your sparring partners this way.

The key to using this method is sparring to learn and actively watching and keeping a record of how your sparring partner reacting to you. The better you get with your observations the easier will get.
Yes, this is a good point. But the experienced fighters seem to be like chess players, they are well aware of "all the typical setups" and are careful to not overreact (as in the exaggerated moves you do in kihon or bunkai).

Only once did i surprise a shihan, and then i used a strike that is rarely used in our style. Then he told me "I didn't see that coming", but other than that they seems to predict my setup attemps better than I can predict their responses. But then Im only a beginner so it makes perfect sense.
 

JowGaWolf

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other than that they seems to predict my setup attemps better than I can predict their responses
This is why you watch them while you spar and while others spar. Everyone gives up their weaknesses buy most fail to watch for them. You can improve even faster by asking your sparring partner how they are able to hit you. Ask them how they are doing that. Most people are happy to share that type of information. Make gathering this type of information a natural part of your training. You'll be surprised at how much better you'll get.
 

marvin8

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Not for me :rolleyes: When I landed two liver kicks lately it was on someone at my own rank. It rarely works on thos of high rank. They just smile and step back and recognize a "beginners feint" I guess.
The Kyoshukin videos you posted show close range with a static pad holder and opponent, which seems to be a false construct. From close range the opponent can "step back," control your arms, take your balance, etc. Read the comments in your posted "Kyokushin Karate" video.

A feint by itself may not be enough...

Belingon and Koreshkov both time their opponents by pulling them in, spin as their opponents step forward, then land their back kick. Koreskov pulls his opponent forward 3 times, then makes two actions into one (feint, kick) and lands the back kickall in the same beat using his technical ability.

Only once did i surprise a shihan, and then i used a strike that is rarely used in our style. Then he told me "I didn't see that coming", but other than that they seems to predict my setup attemps better than I can predict their responses. But then Im only a beginner so it makes perfect sense.
Your timing and cadence may be off. Your Kyokushin videos are more technique oriented, They don't teach you the timing needed outside of close range.
 
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Fungus

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Yes indeed. This thread was originally about the technique, not about the full context. Baby steps for me.

The last few times I took extra time to train this technique against punchingbag. I still need to improve speed and tuning balance, especially for the jumpkick. Originally the question was not about the jumping kick, but as i trained this it seems the jump, makes the "pivot" easier, as it's all done in flight.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Have you ever played 100% defense in training? I have tried it in wrestling. Within 15 minutes, my opponent could not obtain any clinch on me. One of my senior Chinese wrestling brothers made a public statement that anybody could take him down just once, he would give that person a black belt. Until he passed away, nobody could take him down if he played 100% defense. In striking game, if I play 100% defense, I can have a lot of opportunity to obtain a head lock on my opponent. In other words, even if I may play 100% defense, I can still switch to offense if I want to.
This is why many combat sports have rules against "stalling" - pure defense can shut down someone of similar skill unless they can surprise you with something you forget to defend. Someone well trained in Judo will be better than me at throwing a trained grappler - especially within the Judo ruleset - but if I play pure defense (violating that ruleset) I can make it extremely difficult for them to throw me, because I can keep them from getting any useful grips. If I follow the ruleset, I have to go on offense, and they will be able to find those opportunities.
 

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But in this video, they use a typical narrow a bit bladed sance, typical for point-karate. In that case, it looks like an ideal situation even to me. I have no problem with that video. It will be good power!

In our style we often are closer and have a more squared stance. Bladed stance are vulnerable to leg kicks and sweeps and is more in/out focused.

In our last class we were instructed to a adopt a little more squared fighting stance, where the back leg is clearly much to the side and not as narrows as that video. Then we were asked to first turn, lifting the back leg into the air, chamber it in a new position where you have light of sight with the target (so the back foot has to MOVE quote a bit). The front foot are not allowed to side step, just turn angle. Then do the back kick, and then after the kick (in kihon) land the kicking leg back in the original position.

One way would be to before the kick, change from squared stance to narrow bladed stance, but then your opponent knows your stance is chosen for kicking (like a tae-kwon-do stance), which is kicking focused. The challenge i understood from our instructors was not
- NOT adopt and "obvious" bladed stance (as it's the same to say that, I am just waiting to kick you)
- NOT side step the front foot

but still pull of a kind of turning back kick. That way your stance is not the most obvious "kicking stance", but if you still pull off a turning back from there it will be bigger a surprise, than it thrown from a narrow a stance.
It can be done, but I find it to be difficult, and when i think of it, it is more like a turning side kick... and still wonder about the power.

... I wonder if the instructors was trying to make it more complicated than necessary, to make us sweat.. the last time i asked him to show me, he secretly use a narrow stance as well... so perhaps it's the idea, and then there is no issue, maybe I just misinterpreted the challenge and gave it too much thought.
I won't comment on the actual kicks under discussion - I'm bad at one of them and have never tried the other (my primary style isn't much on kicking, though I suspect it once was better at it).

You comment about how changing stances can telegraph what you're doing, and it can. But you can fix that. I go back and forth between strong-side and weak-side forward stances when sparring. There are some things I will only do from weak-forward. But opponents can't use that as a cue, because I'll use that stance for other things, including just to mix up whatever they were working toward. Most folks I've sparred with never even picked up that I don't throw a hook much with my right hand, so when I want to throw a hook, I'll make my way to weak-forward. I throw just enough hooks with my right hand and enough other stuff from weak-forward that it just isn't obvious. Even once they know that, it's not a good "tell", because all they now know is that it's a bit more likely I'll throw a hook when my weak side is forward.

So, if you want to be able to shift your stance and not give away that you're about to throw that (or any other) kick, work that stance into your overall approach. If you move in and out of it, sometimes using other techinques that fit well with that stance (but also show up in your more squared stance), it gets harder to tell when that kick is coming.

Of course, you should also develop the kick as your instructor is suggesting. If you throw it competently from that more squared stance, too, then the shift to a stance where you can deliver with more power is even less obvious.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Thanks for sharing these videos.

I have always wondered, no matter what MA style that you may train, is there any good reason that you don't train "spinning back kick"? If you are good in this technique, you may be able to knock down anybody who runs toward you and tries to knock your head off. It's an excellent combat tool.

A: Do you train "spinning back kick" in your system?
B: We don't train this technique in my system because ....

What can be B's reason?
We never trained any spinning kicks. We didn't spend enough time on kicks for anyone to reasonably become competent with this kind of complex movement.

I later learned (and I use that term loosely) a turning side kick that I added into my teaching curriculum, but never as a useful tool for combat - just as a complexity to challenge movement, timing, and balance. I'd always hoped I'd get a student with experience in that kick who'd make it to senior ranks, and would help me turn that into a functional kick for the other students.
 

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I dont know if this follows the theme of the post but here goes: I have balance problems therefore my first move is going to be shuffling with my legs to get close to my opponent or get some distance accordingly, training,training,training and more training is your best friend I dont know how but you train enough and your mind and body take over! But I would use my hands and arm to get there attention first while there distracted then use my kicks, even a chicken kick to the shins hurt very much.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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This is why many combat sports have rules against "stalling" - pure defense can shut down someone of similar skill unless they can surprise you with something you forget to defend. Someone well trained in Judo will be better than me at throwing a trained grappler - especially within the Judo ruleset - but if I play pure defense (violating that ruleset) I can make it extremely difficult for them to throw me, because I can keep them from getting any useful grips. If I follow the ruleset, I have to go on offense, and they will be able to find those opportunities.
In one of the Taiwan SC tournaments, during the championship fight, both persons played defense, nobody wanted to attack. My teacher disqualified both persons. The 3rd place became the 1st place, and the 4th place became the 2nd place. It caused big argument that year.
 
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isshinryuronin

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In one of the Taiwan SC tournaments, during the championship fight, both persons played defense, nobody wanted to attack. My teacher disqualified both persons. The 3rd place became the 1st place, and the 4th place became the 2nd place. It caused big argument that year.

The defender may "turtle up" for a brief time to draw the attacker out and perhaps make him overconfident, or for a longer time, as Ali did in his "rope-a-dope" strategy, to tire the opponent out. But this latter instance only worked as in boxing the targets and weapons are quite limited and so easy to defend with just forearms and gloves.

One cannot win on the defensive, in a striking art that allows a variety of weapons and targets. Inevitably, by taking the initiative, the attacker will land hits.
 

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The defender may "turtle up" for a brief time to draw the attacker out and perhaps make him overconfident, or for a longer time, as Ali did in his "rope-a-dope" strategy, to tire the opponent out. But this latter instance only worked as in boxing the targets and weapons are quite limited and so easy to defend with just forearms and gloves.

One cannot win on the defensive, in a striking art that allows a variety of weapons and targets. Inevitably, by taking the initiative, the attacker will land hits.
Most of the up-fighting styles have rules about stalling, so "turtle up" would get you a warning and eventually a point deduction.
This speaks to my comment about the possibility of rules bound competition getting a person in trouble in a real-world fight.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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One cannot win on the defensive,
Will you consider yourself as a winner if your opponent cannot land any punch on you?

It depends on your definition of "winning".

If your opponent

- cannot hurt you,
- gives up and stops fighting you,

you are already a winner. When you can't run away from a fight, to play 100% defense can be another option.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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will it EVER be as powerful as the telegraphing tecnhique,
You need "compress" before you can "release". This is why the

- cross is more powerful than the jab.
- back leg roundhouse kick is more powerful than the leading leg front kick.

In other words, you need

- speed to setup (1st move).
- power to finish (2nd move).
 
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