non-telegraph without loosing power, to what extent can training keep power?

HighKick

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The way you are being taught in Kyokushin may be the best for that style approach or competition rules. Kyokushin training has advantages (e.g., prevent CTE, speed, etc.) but may also have disadvantages.

Some other poster, "There are a few others things that are very valuable in a street fight that kyokushin (at least in most dojos) does not teach you: One point kyokushin is often criticized for is the lack of punches to the head. They are part of the curriculum, but since they are not allowed in competitions, you dont train them much. And while you dont necessarily need them as an offensive tool (punching to the head bare knuckled is a terrible idea anyway), you sure as hell need to be able to defend against them in a street fight.

Another major thing that is missing is take-downs and ground game. Again, even if you dont want to take the fight to the ground yourself, your opponent might want to and you better at least know how to defend that and how to get back up."
For certain, there are disadvantages in any rules bound competition sparring format. Get too entrenched and you will revert back to the rules in a real-world self-defense situation.
Where there are no rules.
 
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Fungus

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since they are not allowed in competitions, you dont train them much
...
Another major thing that is missing is take-downs and ground game.
I agree, I havent trained long enough to have gotten used to the close range. I think it feels weird. Once in that range in a real situation, you strike to the head with or throw or takedown.

Once you are that CLOSE, it's not possible to react fast to a head attack, unless you shell up in some way. But then you give also 100% priorityh to the head, and would easily be take out by body attacks. Body strike with knucles is MUCH worse than with a glove.

I don't fight for competitions, so in fighting I class I often throw uraken or haito strikes to the shoulder - just to simulate a strike to temple or neck - had it only been elevated a bit. I find that I nail them all. They are fast and rarely blocked. It's also a good feint, I move left as if I am about to left hook to body, but I then throw my right mawashi uraken or haito. That's an odd strike and not used in competitions, but I train it still as I think that if I can hit the shoulder, I would hit the temple or neck as well.

As for straight strikes without gloves, I would not do it. I would use a shotei, would feel safter. But I loose some range.
 

HighKick

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"Don't telegraph...Switch feet..."

He gets it. Very nice kicks.
What I tried to describe earlier (poorly I suppose) was one of his variations but off center and very close because of the step. Oftentimes I could time it with my opponents stepping back and had good success.
That guy is impressive since he doesn't look like a young buck.
 

marvin8

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He gets it. Very nice kicks.
What I tried to describe earlier (poorly I suppose) was one of his variations but off center and very close because of the step. Oftentimes I could time it with my opponents stepping back and had good success.
That guy is impressive since he doesn't look like a young buck.
In that video, Adkins was age 44 and an actor/stuntman.

Belingon and Koreshkov both time their opponents by pulling them in, spin as their opponents step forward, then land their back kick. Koreskov pulls his opponent forward 3 times, then makes two actions into one (feint, kick) and lands the back kickall in the same beat using his technical ability.

This guy is a master buy also a bit older.
Even without taking a step, the spin itself can be telegraphic and countered.

Shevchenko steps back pulling Grasso in, then spin back kicks. However, Grasso takes her back and defeats Shevchenko by submission with rear-naked choke to win the UFC women's Flyweight division. (Grasso did film study Shevchenko and drilled that move.)

 

Kung Fu Wang

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May be if you train spin back kick, you should also train how to deal with this situation (your opponent controls your back). An underhook throw seems to be a good solution here (since your opponent's arms are around your neck).
 
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marvin8

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He gets it. Very nice kicks.
What I tried to describe earlier (poorly I suppose) was one of his variations but off center and very close because of the step. Oftentimes I could time it with my opponents stepping back and had good success.
That guy is impressive since he doesn't look like a young buck.
Regarding timing, both Koreshkov and Shevchenko used the same strategy against their opponent who tried to take their back. However, Shevchenko's spin timing was too late. Also, notice the difference in their lead hands. Koreshkov controlled the space and opponent (proactive), Shevchenko did not (reactive). Relying on "non-telegraphic" spin back kick technique itself may not be enough.
 
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Fungus

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However, Shevchenko's spin timing was too late.
Yes and it looks like for that range, she should have chambered the lag close to the body, the leg was too far extended.

I delievered two hits with kick on last fighting, I have realized that to make it work I need to chamber the foot as close to my butt as I can and not extend too early. I basically have to turn on the spot while leaning a bit, not rotating while the limb is half extended, that doesnt work on close range.

The opponent was pushing me, with body punched, I punched my self a small gap and then manged to hit the liver while his elbows was up. Worked twice in same fight (but i didnt go full power as it was sparring).

For me persoanlly, the last weeks the insight has been that the kick does work even if not fully extended. I have even tried the extreme and basically tuck the chamber to my body and just rotate/turn, and the body mass behind if, if hitting the liver is still not bad. I will trade a punch to my chest against that, any day! While they punch, I do an outside block on the fly and counter with a liver kick. Very effective and it seems not as difficuly as I thought 4 weeks ago!
 

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Even without taking a step, the spin itself can be telegraphic and countered.
It depends on what follows after the spin. I say this because I do a lot of spinning and people I spar with get hit with something totally different. My sparring often tell me that It looks like I'm about to do a spinning kick. I often wonder if they are telling me what I'm going to do or if they are asking me because I dont do a lot of spinning kicks.

The same posture for a spinning kick or a switch back kick is the same posture for a dozen of other techniques. However if you only know that posture is for one kick then that posture will telegraph your next move and countering will be possible.

If the set up for your punches uses the set up for kicks then your opponent will be confused. A good example would be the "superman punch" using the posture of a kick to set up the punch
 

HighKick

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In that video, Adkins was age 44 and an actor/stuntman.

Belingon and Koreshkov both time their opponents by pulling them in, spin as their opponents step forward, then land their back kick. Koreskov pulls his opponent forward 3 times, then makes two actions into one (feint, kick) and lands the back kickall in the same beat using his technical ability.


Even without taking a step, the spin itself can be telegraphic and countered.

Shevchenko steps back pulling Grasso in, then spin back kicks. However, Grasso takes her back and defeats Shevchenko by submission with rear-naked choke to win the UFC women's Flyweight division. (Grasso did film study Shevchenko and drilled that move.)

The first video is the 'classic' old school static spinning kick. Essentially a training kick. Tons of telecasting. All that motion for the vertical movement is a waste once you get the kick down.
In the fight, she was being dominated and just missed. It looked like the kick did not have a lot on it anyway.
 
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It depends on what follows after the spin. I say this because I do a lot of spinning and people I spar with get hit with something totally different. My sparring often tell me that It looks like I'm about to do a spinning kick. I often wonder if they are telling me what I'm going to do or if they are asking me because I dont do a lot of spinning kicks.

The same posture for a spinning kick or a switch back kick is the same posture for a dozen of other techniques. However if you only know that posture is for one kick then that posture will telegraph your next move and countering will be possible.
The upper body movement of the spint is similar to punching. I've gotten kicked at very close range several times from higher ranks, they attack with a series of body shots, left + right, and suddenly instead of a left hook there is a kick in the liver. Its so fast I can not move, impossible. Only if you guess ahead of things. But I think very hard to react at that close range. At best I get the elbow down or a knee up.

This is a jumping back kick almost from clinch
 

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The upper body movement of the spint is similar to punching. I've gotten kicked at very close range several times from higher ranks, they attack with a series of body shots, left + right, and suddenly instead of a left hook there is a kick in the liver. Its so fast I can not move, impossible. Only if you guess ahead of things. But I think very hard to react at that close range. At best I get the elbow down or a knee up.

This is a jumping back kick almost from clinch
I really enjoyed that video. That's the reality of that kick at a higher skill level. It's beyond what I can do with that kick. I can do the kick but not at thst range and not at that speed.

The kick is a short range kick. I rarely see people get full range on that kick. There are several things thst make that kick dangerous and it's up to the kicker to make the kick fail.
 
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HighKick

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The upper body movement of the spint is similar to punching. I've gotten kicked at very close range several times from higher ranks, they attack with a series of body shots, left + right, and suddenly instead of a left hook there is a kick in the liver. Its so fast I can not move, impossible. Only if you guess ahead of things. But I think very hard to react at that close range. At best I get the elbow down or a knee up.

This is a jumping back kick almost from clinch
Yep.
 

marvin8

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It depends on what follows after the spin. I say this because I do a lot of spinning and people I spar with get hit with something totally different. My sparring often tell me that It looks like I'm about to do a spinning kick. I often wonder if they are telling me what I'm going to do or if they are asking me because I dont do a lot of spinning kicks.

The same posture for a spinning kick or a switch back kick is the same posture for a dozen of other techniques. However if you only know that posture is for one kick then that posture will telegraph your next move and countering will be possible.

If the set up for your punches uses the set up for kicks then your opponent will be confused. A good example would be the "superman punch" using the posture of a kick to set up the punch
I believe you are saying what I, the GIFs and videos already said/showed...

Belingon and Koreshkov both time their opponents by pulling them in, spin as their opponents step forward, then land their back kick. Koreskov pulls his opponent forward 3 times, then makes two actions into one (feint, kick) and lands the back kickall in the same beat using his technical ability
Regarding timing, both Koreshkov and Shevchenko used the same strategy against their opponent who tried to take their back. However, Shevchenko's spin timing was too late. Also, notice the difference in their lead hands. Koreshkov controlled the space and opponent (proactive), Shevchenko did not (reactive). Relying on "non-telegraphic" spin back kick technique itself may not be enough.
 
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One favorite setup is to throw a lead-left mawashi haito strik to head height, supposedly the neck or temple, but as we don't do that I aim symbolically for the shoulder, but that cauases they to raise the arms to block - so the liver is open for a back kick without elbows in the way.
 

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I believe you are saying what I, the GIFs and videos already said/showed...
I'm not sure the videos show the examples that I was thinking of, by intentionally hiding a strike with a movement that looks like a spinning back kick or a turn back kick. Sometimes videos take a few hours after I see a post to show up, so there's a chance that I may miss some videos

When I wrote the comment I was specifically thinking of how I make my side kicks look like I'm going to do a spinning back kick. Or sometimes I'll turn an use the leg closest to my opponent to kick.

This sets up my opponent to expect the kick from the opposite side. There is also one where we spin and throw long fist upper cuts and hooks. The only way to be successful withes those strikes is to hide them as as kick or sweep.

Spin frolicking, spin back kick, spin sweep, spin back fist, spin upper cut, spin knee, spin super man. All look have the same or similar start. This is good for those who may not turn around as quickly.
 

marvin8

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I'm not sure the videos show the examples that I was thinking of, by intentionally hiding a strike with a movement that looks like a spinning back kick or a turn back kick...
I bolded and replied to your concept of "A good example would be the 'superman punch' using the posture of a kick to set up the punch" and included my previous comments. Again, Koreshkov uses control the lead hand (posture) to set up the spin back kick.

Koreshkov technique drill.

 
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