Ninjutsu vs BJJ

Don Roley

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So the US military is putting its soldier's lives on the line to promote Gracie JJ?

Ah, you poor naive waif.

I can tell you have never been in the military. For that matter, you do not seem to have remembered all the many stories of people in the military selling out the service for their own gain. There is actually a guy registered here who was caught in a sting operation trying to sell secrets to someone he thought might be hostile to his country.

But you have also missed the more likely chance that it is a case of a True Believertm looking at things through the eyes of his obsession.

You see, the military really does not put things together. People in the military put things together for the military. And if those people have a deeply held belief that something is a certain way, they will see it in any data they pick up. They do not mean to lie, they just have those preconceptions.

Take a look at yourself. You heard that there were no cases of a fight that did not have grappling. Let us put aside the definition of grappling (grabbing) for a second. You heard that and then made the assumption that an art that specialized in grappling would be more effective. Of course, to specialize in one thing means to leave others lagging behind so striking would be left behind in an art that that specialized in grappling. But of course as we said, there seems to be no mention of whether there were any fights that did not involve striking. You see how your preconceived notions and desires clouded your way of looking at things? Do you realize that people involved in something like putting together an art for the military might suffer the same problems?

Next, you should consider what the sample for the studies is. You may be surprised, but grappling has been in the military H2H manuals for several years. I remember reading a thread at e-budo maybe 4-5 years ago where one of the participants in putting together the system talked about why they put in the groundfighting stuff. So it looks like the guys that were taken for the sample already were learning some GJJ. So stories of them using it if that is the case, is only to be expected.

What if the sample had instead looked at the H2H experiences over the decades that the ROK had while fighting North Korean commandos, VC and others? They learn TKD. I dare say I would expect that a series of interviews with ROK soldiers who fought bare handed might reveal that they used a lot more kicks than grappling. People do as they are trained.

Finally, do not put your faith in anything. Some people seem to grab some sort of security blanket to try to convince themselves that what they do is the baddest thing in town. Some Bujinkan members try to say that an art as old as ours claims to be must be good otherwise it would not have survived. Having seen a few who spout that, I have to say the art would have died off long ago if they were the ones in charge of staying alive long enough to train a replacement. Pointing to the military as some sort of proof that what you do is combat effective sounds like that kind of reliance I am talking about. Do you even know the huge amount of idiots that taught stupid things to the military based on some sort of proof of its effeciency? Having gone through some of the military training firsthand, I can't say that the military gets things right all the time. So my advice would be to not rely on what others do or their perceived successes to bolster your case for your training.
 

bencole

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Flashlock said:
I stand by the material: the soldiers were given detailed questions about specifics during their conflicts, and they discovered that 100% of the fights had elements of grappling (most grappling mixed with striking); NONE had striking alone. 0. Nada. Zilch.

What if the sample had instead looked at the H2H experiences over the decades that the ROK had while fighting North Korean commandos, VC and others? They learn TKD. I dare say I would expect that a series of interviews with ROK soldiers who fought bare handed might reveal that they used a lot more kicks than grappling. People do as they are trained.

This is what I referred to as "self-selection," wherein an individual *CHOOSES* a given action from a set of actions. I agree that if the military had interviewed Korean cammandos, most of them would say that the fight included kicking. LOL! People will do as they are trained!!!

flashlock said:
Otherwise, you should take back your comments.

Huh? No, you really need to go and re-read my comments and understand what they said. Your response shows that you *REALLY* did not understand what "statistical bias" entails.

This is particularly important if you are going to claim that you are using "data and logic" to make your arguments. If your data is flawed, any logic used to exploit the data will be flawed in the end.

-ben
 

Cryozombie

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Here guys, Let me rephrase it in a way that I BELIEVE makes the argument more clear:

"Ok, so in a fair kitchen battle, who would win...

Iron Chef Morimoto, or that Kid from McDonalds... But let me just define fair, they only get to use a microwave, a frozen beef patty and a spatula."

I mean, Its OBVIOUS Mcdonalds is better, because they train the way that the kitchen battle will happen, and the largest food industrys ALL use those techniques, so they MUST be superior to what Morimoto does right?
 

LuzRD

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well that really depends on whether Chef Morimoto can use his own spatula or if he is required to use an acceptable McSpatula.
and are the beef patties frozen in the same frezer to the same core temp???
 

zDom

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Here guys, Let me rephrase it in a way that I BELIEVE makes the argument more clear:

"Ok, so in a fair kitchen battle, who would win...

Iron Chef Morimoto, or that Kid from McDonalds... But let me just define fair, they only get to use a microwave, a frozen beef patty and a spatula."

I mean, Its OBVIOUS Mcdonalds is better, because they train the way that the kitchen battle will happen, and the largest food industrys ALL use those techniques, so they MUST be superior to what Morimoto does right?

LOL, Cryo-Z.

Funny and yet an apt analogy :)

Woulda rep'd ya but I can't (again) yet.
 

DWeidman

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BTW, why does everyone think the BJJ artist is so useless in a multiple fight scenario? They can lock someone up standing just as well as they can on the ground, ...

???

I will pretend you aren't this dense.

Let me repeat what you said for clarity:

"They can lock someone up standing just as well as they can on the ground"

What??? When was the last time you even HEARD of a BJJer winning standing with a standing lock?

It is true that they CAN use standing locks -- but they aren't NEARLY as effective as when they are on the ground...

This should be a "Doh!" moment for you - for saying something so ignorant...

As to part 2:

...and shove him into the other attackers or use him as a shield, or run from a knife just like anyone. I don't see ninjas having a huge advantage in that department, if any.

Really?

How many classes have you seen of where this is practiced by BJJers? Anyone? Brian?

Or -- for some reason this doesn't need to be drilled at all???

Bleh. I will debate the facts with you as soon as you level up your common sense.

-DW
 

DWeidman

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And who was it that said: "The easiest example is our art doesn't fall apart with the inclusion of a knife. BJJ falls apart as soon as a knife (or a friend) is introduced..." I would beg to differ. Those Brazilian BJJ'ers are some of the toughest bad asses around.... learned on the tough streets in Brazil. Do you really think they haven't trained for the real world? Do you really think they haven't thought about what to do against a knife? Come on, get real. I certainly wouldn't say their art falls apart when a knife is introduced.

I did.

Again - let me repeat this slowly for you:

BJJ or GJJ is rarely taught against the knife (if ever). Again, for those that have YEARS training in BJJ/GJJ - please correct me: I am interested in how many classes you have personally witnessed that deal specifically with knife fighting.

But somehow - the mythical Brazilian BadAsses -- picked up knife fighting how? If it isn't taught in class... ...

Hm.

You mean that the art doesn't define the fighter? Say it isn't so!

-DW

PS. This is mostly common sense again (see a trend to my posts?). An art that "needs" to close the distance to be effective at all is at a disadvantage when you make the "penalty" for closing that distance as pricey as it is when you are looking at the business end of a knife... So -- how much of BJJ is useful at distances greater than the "grapple range"?

Hmmm.... Level up your "common sense" as well... Or just quit the Gracie nutriding? Toodles...

PPS. As to Brazilian BadAsses: I would rather face the baddest BJJer unarmed then just a pretty good "Escrimador" with his knives. Or Joe Average from down the street with his Glock. There is a trend here... Your homework is to figure out what the trend is? Good luck.
 

Andrew Green

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Yeah, well how does Ninjutsu deal with Tanks? Huh? It doesn't does it? That's what I thought :p

Seriously guys come on, this is silly. BJJ does what it does, and it does it very well. It is a specialized art, but it's strategies can be implemented into other things if you like. The Dog brothers, for example, have put out material on mixing Machado brand BJJ with weapons fighting, it works. But if you don't train it, it won't. Same goes for everything.

And, let's be honest here, if the other guy has a knife and you don't, your odds are not good no matter what you train in.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Yeah, well how does Ninjutsu deal with Tanks? Huh? It doesn't does it? That's what I thought :p

Seriously guys come on, this is silly. BJJ does what it does, and it does it very well. It is a specialized art, but it's strategies can be implemented into other things if you like. The Dog brothers, for example, have put out material on mixing Machado brand BJJ with weapons fighting, it works. But if you don't train it, it won't. Same goes for everything.

And, let's be honest here, if the other guy has a knife and you don't, your odds are not good no matter what you train in.

Andrew no doubt if you take the principles of BJJ and train it with a stick or knife they do work (but only if you train that way) if you pay close attention to the details!
icon6.gif


It is also true Andrew that it is hard to disagree with your analogy that if the other guy has a knife and you do not that you are at a distinct disadvantage. I can see all sides to this argument as I train in both Budo Taijutsu and BJJ. Having said that I do not like to think in generalities as I have seen some sorry BJJ people and some great Budo Taijutsu grappling and vice versa going the opposite way. The reality will always be that it does come down to the individual in the moment and if you cannot implement your training in that violent encounter then you probably will be at a distinct disadvantage if the other person can!
 

Brian R. VanCise

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As to part 2:



Really?

How many classes have you seen of where this is practiced by BJJers? Anyone? Brian?

Or -- for some reason this doesn't need to be drilled at all???

-DW

A number of times but not nearly as much time as is spent on just plain unarmed jiujitsu.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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So how many times in the past 11 yrs? rough estimation?

-DW

I could not give you a rough number count but if I were to break down an percentage of my BJJ training nearly 90% to 95% is with ground techniques and the other 5 to 10% is with standing self defense. That is probably a pretty accurate percentage across the board in most BJJ good BJJ schools.
 

Odin

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I did.

Again - let me repeat this slowly for you:

BJJ or GJJ is rarely taught against the knife (if ever). Again, for those that have YEARS training in BJJ/GJJ - please correct me: I am interested in how many classes you have personally witnessed that deal specifically with knife fighting.

But somehow - the mythical Brazilian BadAsses -- picked up knife fighting how? If it isn't taught in class... ...

Hm.

You mean that the art doesn't define the fighter? Say it isn't so!

-DW

PS. This is mostly common sense again (see a trend to my posts?). An art that "needs" to close the distance to be effective at all is at a disadvantage when you make the "penalty" for closing that distance as pricey as it is when you are looking at the business end of a knife... So -- how much of BJJ is useful at distances greater than the "grapple range"?

Hmmm.... Level up your "common sense" as well... Or just quit the Gracie nutriding? Toodles...

PPS. As to Brazilian BadAsses: I would rather face the baddest BJJer unarmed then just a pretty good "Escrimador" with his knives. Or Joe Average from down the street with his Glock. There is a trend here... Your homework is to figure out what the trend is? Good luck.

Gracie barra london teaches knife defence.
 

DWeidman

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Gracie barra london teaches knife defence.

How often?

Any Martial Arts school that is even attempting to pass itself off as a self-defense school will have to touch on "other" aspects occasionally.

-DW

PS. I am going to take a bit of a vacation from this board (temporary). Apologies to all -- if you want to continue discussion of any of this -- hit me up on kutaki.org or martialartsplanet.com. Later :) -DW
 

Highland Ninja

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Hope you'll all forgive the thread necromancy here.

A couple of insights I wanted to share though.

First, a lot of emphasis is being placed on BJJ in the ring, as people will say that the BJJ guys beat boxers, karateka, etc. But what would happen if you put a BJJ practitioner in the ring with Lennox Lewis, Tyson, or Holyfield under boxing rules? Or with any good boxer? The BJJ guy would be "owned" by the boxer. Why? Because the fight would be under boxing rules and the BJJ guy has no training in that aspect of the fight.

So we can't look at sports to define "my art can kick your art's ***". True, MMA and UFC fights use both striking and grappling. But there are plenty of techniques that are banned. Are eye gouges, strikes to the throat, groin crushing, hair grabbing, ear biting, and other such techniques allowed? If not, it's not real combat and cannot be used as an indicator of what works on the street. So clearly, it isn't.

People also poo-poo on pain compliance techniques and "dirty tactics" as "ineffective" against a well-conditioned fighter. But let's look at the second Holyfield/Tyson fight though, to put this in perspective. Holyfield is used to being punched in the head repeatedly by some of the most devastating one-punch knock-out fighters in his era (Bowe, Tyson, etc). The man is trained to endure vast amounts of pain. And yet when Tyson bit off the tip of his ear, he recoiled, grabbed his ear, and did a pain dance across the ring. He didn't just stand there and pound Tyson into dogmeat a second time. Is anyone going to tell me that Royce Gracie would simply grin and continue applying an arm bar if someone bit his ear off, gouged out an eye, or used some such vicious technique? Please!

We also need to look at reality and forget theory, Army studies, sports, and other nonsense. In real life, the situation is that usually there are multiple attackers, environmental concerns, weapons, etc. I'd hardly want to grapple with 3 enemies, or even one armed with a knife!

Getting back to BJK, perhaps some things are emphasized less these days, but I've always been trained with an eye towards taking advantage of any environmental factors, any handy makeshift weapons, etc. If I find myself in a situation and there are loose rocks, dirt, or sand on the ground, you can bet your behind that I am going to grab a handful and make use of it. Perhaps roll and grab some so you don't know I even have it in my hand. Kinda hard to do a takedown when your eyes are full of dirt, sand, etc!

If there's anything laying around that can be thrown, it's getting thrown at you! Pencils, pens, forks, the drink I'm holding in my hand, etc. To this very day, whenever I'm in a situation where there is any possibility of combat (however unlikely at the moment), I'm trained to see improvised weapons, tactical positioning, environmental concerns, and other issues. It happens automatically. I was on the subway train recently, it was very crowded and I was standing. I instinctively started seeing scenarios, how it would best be handled, ways to optimize my advantages, etc. I doubt the old guy dozing would care if I "borrowed" his walking cane to fend off an attacker who thought I was "unarmed", for example. I had a water bottle with that pop-up sip-cap, that could be used to spray into the attacker's eyes. Considering that it contained fresh squeezed, home-made lemonade (and quite potent!), I'd say that qualifies as mitsubishi! I started noticing how if anyone attacked me from in front, I could easily use the holding bar as a weapon, since they'd have had to reach around it to grab me (or strike me).

So it makes no sense to compare BJJ to BJK when ninjutsu training includes weapons and other concerns. Any attempt to do so it akin to reducing combat to sport rules. You gotta take the whole art, not just part of it, into these "comparisons" that people seem so obsessed with.

People argue that the BJJ grappler has an advantage because he studies only that one thing, grappling. But that's a weakness, in my eyes. That's like having an Air Force but no Army, Navy, or Marines. People from the grappling arts who so love to come to the ninjutsu forum to proclaim -

"But if the BJJ guy gets you on the ground, he has a HUGE advantage"

- tend to forget that in order to get that advantage, he must indeed get the fight to the grappling stage. If all he is trained to do is grapple, then he is at a disadvantage against someone with a wider array of skills. As long as the opponent has at least some competency at grappling, it's going to be very hard for the pure grappler to throw his opponent to the ground and pin or submit him. The grappler is at a distinct disadvantage.

This is why I chose ninjutsu as my art. It covers everything. Srtikes, grappling, groundfighting, joint locks/breaks, weapons, environmental concerns, mental tactics, you name it!
 

Brian R. VanCise

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I have often told people that I believe BJJ compliments Budo Taijutsu very nicely. The ground movement is similar and yet more refined in BJJ and Budo Taijutsu brings a real world approach that is essential for personal protection skills.
 

DWeidman

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Hope you'll all forgive the thread necromancy here.

A couple of insights I wanted to share though.

...


This is why I chose ninjutsu as my art. It covers everything. Srtikes, grappling, groundfighting, joint locks/breaks, weapons, environmental concerns, mental tactics, you name it!

Dude -

I appreciate your renewed vigor and fervor in your return to the BJK.

You haven't said anything that hasn't already been said (and put in its place).

BJJ people by far and large don't claim to be the end all be all to all forms of self defense. Weapons fighting is clearly one of those areas they are weak in.

It doesn't take a genius to put the sharp end of a pen into someone else.

As for the gouging and such - again - the BJJ-er will be in a better position to dirty trick you than you will be to cheap shot him.

Anyway - this horse has been dead for awhile. I don't see anything positive coming up around starting another "yeah, but I will tear your eyes out if you shoot in on me - Ninja FTW" thread.

It will only bring another round of "LOLz - ninjers...."

If you are happy with your training - so be it. No need to try and convince others you are right.

When you are ready - just suit up and head to a good BJJ club. When you are on the far side of a year's training with the BJJ club - then come back and talk to us.

-Daniel Weidman
 

Ronnin

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jks,
Thanks great, but how about a response. Tell us, with your martial arts expertise, how a Nin-fighter and a BJJ-fighter would go at it.

If you have something to contribute.

I haven't posted in a while, it's good to be here non the less. Anyway, Senin, you keep questioning everything, after all through debate is how one gains intelligence. People who just, take thier Sensie's word for practicality without ever testing themselves are in for a rude awakening in a real life situation. Unfortunatly there are far more of them out there, then those that have truly tested themselves, although 99% percent of people will tell you they have used some sort of Taijutsu, but that's easy to say over the computer. Now, there are some guys here that really have used thier skill in a real situation, but they may have never been to Japan, or may not be a Godan, so some may disregard thier opinion. Some people in the community have a GREAT deal of knowladge on Taijutsu which is extremely helpful when you develope your skill. But my advice is this: don't for one second take ANYONE'S word for law. There is no such thing in a real fight, and people who try to illude your question with insult are people who don't know how thier art would stack up, and damn you for questioning !! Now here come all of my bashings, it just proves my point, hey guys I'm not pointing a finger at ANYONE here, I'm just talking from my past experiences, you cant very well say THOSE are wrong, can you? Anyway, I think ALL arts are great AND practicle if one "understands" their art. All arts are based on the same principal, don't ger hit, and cause as much damage as possible while exerting the least amount of effort, basic. So I think, what it comes down to weather it'a a BBT practioner vs. a BJJ, or Taekwondo vs. Muay Thai, or even Boxing vs. Capoeria, it's who "understands" what is happening at that moment and who can capitalize on thier realization. Just my 376 cents.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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hey guys I'm not pointing a finger at ANYONE here, I'm just talking from my past experiences, you cant very well say THOSE are wrong, can you?

No, but we can question the validity of the conclusions you've drawn from said experiences.
 
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