Ninjutsu vs BJJ

Cryozombie

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"But it's the fighter that counts." No, you are learning effective skills. It would be ignorant to say the style is doesn't matter. Put that boxer back in the ring with BJJ'er again and see.

Ok, so if its just the art, Senin, then, by your example, a guy with a month of BJJ training is gonna be able to take on someone like Nagato sensei?

LOL. OHHHHHH KAY.
 
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Senin

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Ok, so if its just the art, Senin, then, by your example, a guy with a month of BJJ training is gonna be able to take on someone like Nagato sensei?

LOL. OHHHHHH KAY.

Geez, where is the common sense?

I understand that Nagato sensei, along with ninjutsu, had some prior martial arts experience-- Judo, etc. I am sure that Nagato sensei has probably grabbled at least over a month's worth of time.

You don't get the art in a month. Let's be at least somewhat reasonable and compare black belts vs black belts. Not novice vs nearly grandmaster.
 

Jonathan Randall

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Geez, where is the common sense?

I understand that Nagato sensei, along with ninjutsu, had some prior martial arts experience-- Judo, etc. I am sure that Nagato sensei has probably grabbled at least over a month's worth of time.

You don't get the art in a month. Let's be at least somewhat reasonable and compare black belts vs black belts. Not novice vs nearly grandmaster.

It sounds like your saying his early Judo training - and ONLY his Judo training - would be the reason he would prevail. If so, I'd have to ask why your arguing in the Ninjutsu forum if you've already made up your mind that it is worthless?

IMO, these arguments are silly. What does it matter to BJJ/MMA folks what BBT folks do?
 

The Master

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It's funny that the Gracies are mentioned so often. I've heard that in the "old days" that most if not all the fights were Gracies vs their students. It was rare to see a Gracie do real no-rules fighting outside their circle. Less embarassing when the fight is semi-fixed.

As to BJJ vs Ninjutsu, in a ground fight, the BJJer may win. But what weapon techniques does BJJ have again? I'm not personally aware of any. How would a BJJer handle a knife weilding ninja? Ninja with sword? Ninja with caltrops, or shirken, or shinken or whatever they are called? How about if the ninja threw salt or used pepper spray first?

How would The Master fight a Ninja?
As dirty as possible.
How would he fight a BJJer?
From 25 feet away with a 45.
Tap that out brother!
Booyah!
 

Andrew Green

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IMO, these arguments are silly. What does it matter to BJJ/MMA folks what BBT folks do?

Generally, it doesn't.

Which is why these tend to get started by and dominated by people that practice Ninjitsu. Oddly enough there is very little discussion on MMA boards about what to do if you fight a ninja.

Forgive me if I missed anyone here, but I skimmed the thread and I don't see any MMA stylists. I see a couple people that have some minimal BJJ training, as well as training in something else.

So I think the question should be, What does it matter to BBT folk what MMA/BJJ fighters do?
 

shesulsa

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Anyone can type anything they want to into the "style" field in their own profile. I could type that I were the Super De-Dooper De-Pooper Scooper Poop-ahh of Kaht Bahks Dough. Doesn't mean that's what I am.
 

shesulsa

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So... this thread was all MMA guys in dressed as ninjas then? Sounds more like a ninja tactic :D
LOL!

I'm just pointing out that a duck can waddle and call itself a goose if it wants to ... and ninjas aren't the only sneaky bastards out there ... they just make an art of it .... :ultracool
 

Andrew Green

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Nope, many forms of sneaky buggers.

But when I see a bunch of Ducks, my first thought isn't usually, "Wow, those cats have really good duck outfits"
 

meta_aesthete

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Andrew,

I think you raise a valid point in that (from my newb observations) this forum spends waaaaaay too much time debating BJJ/MMA/MT. The issue is that, as in this case, people come to the ninjutsu threads to start these debates. Debates that have been re-hashed a million times. And I think the dominating response is one of frustration, one of "here we go again."

But I agree that it happens too much. Even as I was typing my last post on this thread, I realized that I didn't care. It's a waste of energy to argue these things, because it's all rhetorical. Combat is the opposite of rhetorical.

I don't think this community HAS to deal with each outside critic who comes here with a chip. But for some reason we do, and I think it's getting silly.

I, for one, am going to try to ignore it now. If the OP is interested enough in ninjutsu's grappling defenses, he can research it or take classes. Has he considered looking up his local BJK instructor and asking for a demonstration? That's the only real way to evaluate, IMHO.

Maybe it'll work for him, maybe it won't. But my training so far has worked for me, and if something happens that makes me change that view, I'll adapt.

But the combined experience and intelligence of the practitioners in this forum is far too often wasted on this sort of junk.

Everyone here has to make a choice: is our objective to help each other become better practitioners, or to shout down critics?

If our objective is TRULY the first one, then there's no need for us to engage in these rhetorical fights -- winning or losing them doesn't accomplish our goal, so there's no reason to engage.
 

MJS

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So I think the question should be, What does it matter to BBT folk what MMA/BJJ fighters do?

Well Andrew, last time I checked, I haven't seen any BBT members, running over to the MMA/Grappling section and starting flames over there. Why is it that certain folks come over the the BBT thread, with little to no BBT experience, and cause flames? Rather than ask a sincere question about BBT, they're more interested in tearing apart the art.
 

Andrew Green

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Well Andrew, last time I checked, I haven't seen any BBT members, running over to the MMA/Grappling section and starting flames over there. Why is it that certain folks come over the the BBT thread, with little to no BBT experience, and cause flames? Rather than ask a sincere question about BBT, they're more interested in tearing apart the art.

I'm not going to claim no MMA practitioner has ever gone to a BBT section to start a fight, but in this case, there was no MMA person starting it. Same for the last few style vs style fights in here. So why is it that MMA / Grappling people get pointed at as the guilty party when they where no where to be seen? Usually when a MMA person does pick the fight, they are not actually a practitioner, but a UFC fan who has watched the reality series and played the video game. I really don't think it is at all fair to blame the art and its practitioners for them though, no more then it is to blame ninjutsu for the guys that think the 80's ninja movies where pretty much accurate, and want to argue that point to anyone that disagrees.

That said, the MMA section has quite a few enteries from people that butt in to remind everyone that MMA is just a sport with rules and that in a real fight all those fouls we are forbidden by sacred law to execute, even in a no rules fight, will be the death of us. That and 3 guys with weapons on a glass covered floor.
 

Flying Crane

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Yes, name calling: the last refuge of the inarticulate and frustrated.

I'm not going to respond to your petty insults beyond that; people can read these posts and judge for themselves who the insecure ignoramous is.


I apologize if my post came across as a personal attack. Frustrated? Yes, simply because, as another poster mentioned, we see way too many threads turn into a "my style is better than your style" type of argument. These have been rehashed over and over, and it seems that more often than not, it is a BJJ, or MMA vs. everything/anything else argument, and it's just kicking a dead horse. Let's just bury that carcass and leave it alone. I guess the best thing for me is to refrain from entering these kinds of threads, which I do for the most part, and pretty much stayed out of this one too. Just finally couldn't resist, I guess.

I didn't mean my post as a personal attack at you, but I otherwise stand by everything that I said.
 

Cryozombie

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I keep hearing, "who said that the ninjutsu practioner will do eye pokes, biting, groin attackes". Okay then, what would the ninjutsu practioner do? I have yet to hear that one. I think it is pretty obvious what the BJJer will do. I have yet to hear a defense.

Ok, Bujinkan People, I'm horribly sorry, but I can't take the lies and secrecy anymore... I'm going to let the cat out of the bag, and answer senin so this can be laid to rest once and for all... please forgive me if I misspell the name of our technique, I dont really speak japanese. Since you want a canned answer, please understand that this technique should be assumed to be applied all the time everytime.

The BJJ practitioner would probably enter in to grapple, and the ninja, if he were unarmed would shift kamae to avoid the inital attack and if successful, apply kouro, and that would most likely be the end of the fight, because if Kouro is applied correctly it ALWAYS ends a fight.

And, Everyone thats it, right there. The way a BBT guy would fight a BJJr. Its our secret... and I told, so I will be scolded.

Question asked and answered, lets move on.
 

jks9199

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I inferred that from the book which contains some techniques influenced by said data; it just wasn't spelled out.

If you went up behind someone and punched them in the back of the head--you weren't in a fight, you're just an *******. :)

Kidding aside, statistics have more weight the more data you have, of course! I guess it was good enough for the US Military, I figured it was good enough for little ol' me. I wish I had more reports and things, I just don't. Personally, I don't really need those reports because I have common sense (I'm not implying people here don't, just that mine tells me fights tend to go to grappling).

Guess what? The reality of most street attacks is some guy sneaking up on an unaware victim, and pouncing. Often with a weapon of some sort.

The relative handful where folks square off and "settle things like men" in some fashion are typically bar or school yard fight scenarios.

As to choices in military or police training -- those are often driven by a few people whose interests or personal biases shape the course or selection. Studies can be constructed to support those views... The reality is that the last thing a cop or a soldier wants is to go hands-on with someone. When that's happening -- it means everything else has failed. And, currently, I'd suspect that when our soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan, and similar combat arenas are attacked and forced into a hand-to-hand situation, the assailant has a goal of getting the soldier's weapons or equipment, meaning that they're likely to move it into a grabbing/grappling situation.

For real world application, some form of fundamental grappling skill is indeed a necessity. But many systems contain at least the basics -- if you know where and when to look.

As I've said previously -- it's fun to sit down with a couple of buddies from different styles and say "what would you do if I did this..." and compare and contrast your solutions to the problem. This generic idea of "this is better than that" or "what you a x-er do against a y-er" is non-productive. It's too generic... (And, you might note, this thread hasn't really ended up addressing that question which started it very much... h'mm.)

Somehow, I suspect I know where this thread's destined to end up...
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Ok, Bujinkan People, I'm horribly sorry, but I can't take the lies and secrecy anymore... I'm going to let the cat out of the bag, and answer senin so this can be laid to rest once and for all... please forgive me if I misspell the name of our technique, I dont really speak japanese. Since you want a canned answer, please understand that this technique should be assumed to be applied all the time everytime.

The BJJ practitioner would probably enter in to grapple, and the ninja, if he were unarmed would shift kamae to avoid the inital attack and if successful, apply kouro, and that would most likely be the end of the fight, because if Kouro is applied correctly it ALWAYS ends a fight.

And, Everyone thats it, right there. The way a BBT guy would fight a BJJr. Its our secret... and I told, so I will be scolded.

Mind telling me just what exactly "kouro" is, so I can scold you for it?
 

MJS

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I'm not going to claim no MMA practitioner has ever gone to a BBT section to start a fight, but in this case, there was no MMA person starting it. Same for the last few style vs style fights in here. So why is it that MMA / Grappling people get pointed at as the guilty party when they where no where to be seen? Usually when a MMA person does pick the fight, they are not actually a practitioner, but a UFC fan who has watched the reality series and played the video game. I really don't think it is at all fair to blame the art and its practitioners for them though, no more then it is to blame ninjutsu for the guys that think the 80's ninja movies where pretty much accurate, and want to argue that point to anyone that disagrees.

Andrew, I'm more than sure you know exactly what I'm referring to. It does not matter if its a MMA person or someone that worships MMA, the fact remains that there have been a number of threads in this section, in GMA and CMA. For someone that has access to all of the RTMs that have been generated, you should now better than anyone!

That said, the MMA section has quite a few enteries from people that butt in to remind everyone that MMA is just a sport with rules and that in a real fight all those fouls we are forbidden by sacred law to execute, even in a no rules fight, will be the death of us. That and 3 guys with weapons on a glass covered floor.

Andrew, come on man! Its the same debate all the time, just with a different title! By this point and time, I'm more than sure we all know how each side feels, but why is it necesary to constantly debate it????? So before this thread gets locked, I suggest this discussion ends and returns to the topic!

Nuff said!!!!!
 

Andrew Green

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It does not matter if its a MMA person or someone that worships MMA,


Yes, it does.

We don't blame the JKD people everytime some karate practitioner shows up armed with a copy of the Tao of JKD and proceeds to tell all the karate people how to reform there art do we?
 
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