Ninjutsu is not a martial art.

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tim po

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If you refuse to provide context for your post, your post only means what people think it means. Which is kind of not how you want communication to work.

So, rather than dancing around, why not share what you meant, so I can reply to that. Otherwise, I'm just replying to whatever I thought you meant.
i think people are generally getting tired of my opinions, i guess i come across as one who is overly impressed with his own viewpoint. i wasn't being sarcastic, if my post provokes thoughts of your own i'd like to hear them.

i can try again later to clarify my original intent.
 

Oily Dragon

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"trust" and "ninja".

"What are two words you should never put together", Alex.
 

Oily Dragon

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He was awarded the level of "sword saint" (or similar translation) from the national association for preserving the methods of kenjutsu
Kensei? When did this happen?? Do you have more info???

If I sound perplexed, I am. I follow such ridiculous things closely, and was not aware.
 

jks9199

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I'm curious, do scholars of classical Japanese martial arts still consider Maasaki Hatsumi a legitimate source of Ninjutsu?
There are, as I understand it, significant differences of opinion on that. That's why I put the "(arguably)" in there.
 

jks9199

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you just named them.
Which works? Which translations? They aren't all equal. For example, Stephen Hayes sort of took a lot of his early material from Hatsumi, but the filtering process was... Well, it was what it was.
 
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tim po

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Which works? Which translations? They aren't all equal. For example, Stephen Hayes sort of took a lot of his early material from Hatsumi, but the filtering process was... Well, it was what it was.

I think this begs the question: relevant to what?
hmm... i actually dont know how i ended up with both of you in this response, i really kinda suck with computers but any way

JKS, i had not heard anything about Hatsumi being regarded suspiciously, but being Soke does kinda mean he gets to shape the art however he chooses, far as I know. and c'mon, how much can we really expect to ever know the true history of Japan, especially the involvement of Shinobi-we're talking about the most secretive members of the most secretive people in the history of the world! would not surprise me if there were deviations. to be fair, i never really got into SKH, he was kinda too 'Mr. Rogers' for me.

Gerry, I thought i gave sufficient answer to this question in the quoted response, the relevance being war, essentially. all martial arts were created during a time when they were needed, to fight for everything people fought for. as civilians in a time so removed from when any of these things happened, do we do ourselves harm or favor by clinging to traditions? if we favor traditions and wish to keep them relevant, how best to do that, with an art like this? focusing on Ninjutsu, without the Ninpo, will only make clever criminals.

the more i think about it, the less i agree with myself, using Ninjutsu as the umbrella term for all of the traditions that still live from this shrouded past is well and good. i always sought to avoid it, if pressed, i was satisfied when they told me they never heard of Ninpo Taijutsu! What always impressed me most was the core philosophy, as i was able to understand it based on the sources and people available, including Hatsumi Soke.e recently writings of Fujita Seiko have been translated too.
I have had people tell me they think Taijutsu is weak. such and such is better, of course. but taijutsu IS weak, without Ninpo, and yeah, a little bit of ninjutsu too.
 

Gerry Seymour

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i think people are generally getting tired of my opinions, i guess i come across as one who is overly impressed with his own viewpoint. i wasn't being sarcastic, if my post provokes thoughts of your own i'd like to hear them.

i can try again later to clarify my original intent.
I was trying to have thoughts about your post without assumptions. I guess Ill just keep my assumptions, given no other option.
 
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tim po

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I was trying to have thoughts about your post without assumptions. I guess Ill just keep my assumptions, given no other option.
no matter what i say i am responded to with assumptions, and i blame my lack of googlejutsu prowess. it is ok to share your thoughts, or not. i don't think i am cut out for internet forums. peace be to all.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Gerry, I thought i gave sufficient answer to this question in the quoted response, the relevance being war, essentially. all martial arts were created during a time when they were needed, to fight for everything people fought for. as civilians in a time so removed from when any of these things happened, do we do ourselves harm or favor by clinging to traditions? if we favor traditions and wish to keep them relevant, how best to do that, with an art like this? focusing on Ninjutsu, without the Ninpo, will only make clever criminals.
If we use war as a measure of relevance, I doubt anything we commonly call Martial Arts will pass that test.
 

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no matter what i say i am responded to with assumptions, and i blame my lack of googlejutsu prowess. it is ok to share your thoughts, or not. i don't think i am cut out for internet forums. peace be to all.

You should understand that this is the nature of the forum - it isn't you. If you can tolerate the dynamic people are happy to hear your perspective.
 

Flying Crane

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no matter what i say i am responded to with assumptions, and i blame my lack of googlejutsu prowess. it is ok to share your thoughts, or not. i don't think i am cut out for internet forums. peace be to all.
Seriously, dont worry about it and you are welcome here. People can ride you hard sometimes, and sometimes it just depends on the day. There is a lot of interaction here, most of it friendly and good natured.
 

Hanzou

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Care to elaborate? This is generally my experience regarding Hatsumi as well, but I'd be interested in hearing your PoV.

There are, as I understand it, significant differences of opinion on that. That's why I put the "(arguably)" in there.

Indeed. I'm seeing that difference of opinion in this very thread. o_O
 

Hanzou

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JKS, i had not heard anything about Hatsumi being regarded suspiciously, but being Soke does kinda mean he gets to shape the art however he chooses, far as I know. and c'mon, how much can we really expect to ever know the true history of Japan, especially the involvement of Shinobi-we're talking about the most secretive members of the most secretive people in the history of the world! would not surprise me if there were deviations. to be fair, i never really got into SKH, he was kinda too 'Mr. Rogers' for me.

the more i think about it, the less i agree with myself, using Ninjutsu as the umbrella term for all of the traditions that still live from this shrouded past is well and good. i always sought to avoid it, if pressed, i was satisfied when they told me they never heard of Ninpo Taijutsu! What always impressed me most was the core philosophy, as i was able to understand it based on the sources and people available, including Hatsumi Soke.e recently writings of Fujita Seiko have been translated too.
I have had people tell me they think Taijutsu is weak. such and such is better, of course. but taijutsu IS weak, without Ninpo, and yeah, a little bit of ninjutsu too.

My issue with Hatsumi is stuff like this;


One of the beautiful things about ground fighting/newaza is that due to its nature, it's rather easy to discern what is nonsense and what actually would work in a given situation.

What Hatsumi is doing here is utter, pure nonsense. I could toss a BJJ white belt in there with a few months experience and Hatsumi would get subbed over and over again.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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no matter what i say i am responded to with assumptions, and i blame my lack of googlejutsu prowess. it is ok to share your thoughts, or not. i don't think i am cut out for internet forums. peace be to all.
I've enjoyed reading your posts and the debates that have come from it, for what it's worth.

There are also some on here who have researched a lot and I have great faith in what they post..others not so much. Also some are more blunt while others aren't. It's up to you how to interact with anyone, but if you can get through the difference of opinions and personalities, you can learn (and teach) a lot.
 
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tim po

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If we use war as a measure of relevance, I doubt anything we commonly call Martial Arts will pass that test.
war was the relevance. war is still a thing, and it could be said that the martial arts being cultivated by the world's special forces are the cutting edge of modern martial arts development in a way, but our culture is very competitive and sports are an enormous influence on so many people. for many arts, there are certainly exceptions, that relevance has translated into sport and exhibition, in the name of tradition and the preservation of heritage for some more than others. in some cases, there are ways they can fall short of staying relevant by clinging to rigid kata. it cannot for work for Ninpo to become sport, though it has been made a spectactle by our culture no doubt, so it seems to me that the natural evolution has to align with cultural goals of a different nature to stay relevant - and (hopefully) moral in purpose.

i had to practice my googlejutsu, so i googled 'gray man'. i thought it was just about my beard, but, yeah, that's kinda what i feel the relevance of Ninpo in our modern age is closer to, for me (not for people still involved in war) and the approach to technique in Ninpo Taijutsu lends itself well to a martial-minded type who strives to cultivate such a persona. the hidden intention, stealth. the skills spoken of, escape and evasion, urban camoflouge, awareness, definetly modern Ninjutsu in it's own way. though i actually feel silly now that i know its a trending thing..
 
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tim po

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My issue with Hatsumi is stuff like this;


One of the beautiful things about ground fighting/newaza is that due to its nature, it's rather easy to discern what is nonsense and what actually would work in a given situation.

What Hatsumi is doing here is utter, pure nonsense. I could toss a BJJ white belt in there with a few months experience and Hatsumi would get subbed over and over again.
dude did he grab his nuts? damn.

yeah...there is some wtf there for sure. can't hear what he is saying, so never know what he is trying to illustrate for sure, but i suspect in a few of those instances he is using skin-grabbing(shako ken?) which is difficult to see but is very painful. i really don't even want to think about what it would feel like from Soke!

his techniques are always as vague as his answers. i've never been his uke but i'll bet you'd have to ask one to know why he is a terrifying human being.
 
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tim po

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I've enjoyed reading your posts and the debates that have come from it, for what it's worth.

There are also some on here who have researched a lot and I have great faith in what they post..others not so much. Also some are more blunt while others aren't. It's up to you how to interact with anyone, but if you can get through the difference of opinions and personalities, you can learn (and teach) a lot.
thank you. i've been enjoying reading the ones i haven't posted in.
 

BrendanF

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Care to elaborate? This is generally my experience regarding Hatsumi as well, but I'd be interested in hearing your PoV.

I'm no expert on the historicity of ninja/ninjutsu - I'm sure Chris would know far more about that stuff. But in my experience with koryu practitioners and teachers in Japan, Mr Hatsumi and the 'x-kan' organisations are viewed as a bit of a laughing stock; a tourist exploitation machine based on some pretty cringy, childish ideas. Not seen as either legitimate martial arts, or historical traditions.

Of course this does not sit well with the legions of foreigners who have time and emotion invested in these organisations. They often cite the Emperor giving Mr Hatsumi an award as 'proof' of his good standing (I understand he received an award 'for contributions to tourism' from the Emperor - I don't think he was designated a living cultural asset and would be keen to see evidence to support that)

It is pretty apparent that much of the 'ninja' stuff was created by Mr Hatsumi's teacher, Takamatsu, and does not have any history prior to that.
 

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