New "MMA Sport" Idea of Mine

Dagon

White Belt
Joined
Mar 28, 2017
Messages
2
Reaction score
3
I've mulled over this idea of a different kind of MMA sport fighting and I want to know your thoughts.

The foundation as far as rules would be by and large the official MMA or UFC rules with the following alterations:

1. A submission or "tap out" is not the end of the match, it is the end of the round. A submission grants a large amount of points. If a fighter submits multiple times in the first few rounds, they can still make a comeback by making their opponent submit or getting a K.O.

2. A knock-out is the end of a whole match. This way, a disadvantaged fighter still has a chance to win even after tapping out in a previous round. Submission by knock-out(i.e. a hold that makes a fighter pass out before they tap out), marks the end of a match as well.

3. Lightweight wrestling style shoes(with or without socks), or foot wraps, but not both at once, may be worn if desired.

4. I'm unsure of this one, but it crossed my mind: Pinning an opponent for a 3-count(like Pro Wrestling) marks the end of a round and awards a large amount of points to the fighter doing the pinning, but not as much as making your opponent tap out in a submission. I thought of this because I think it would deter people from stalling while on the ground. I've seen many fights where the fighters are on the ground and not moving much for a significant period of time. This rule would encourage fighters to do their ground fighting quickly or get up as soon as they can to keep the action flowing.

Let me know your thoughts on this and thank you for your input.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,337
Reaction score
8,070
Why?

What are you trying to achieve with this competition.
 

Headhunter

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Messages
4,765
Reaction score
1,598
No sorry I don't like it. Basically it undermines the submissions since you only win a round so people would just try for knockouts more.

Wrestling shoes...well who cares about that.

Pinning no because that would be even more boring way to end a round and jiu jitsu guys use that time to set up a submission.

You seem like a guy who simply finds grappling boring and that fine just go watch kickboxing.

Mma is fine as it is.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,337
Reaction score
8,070
No sorry I don't like it. Basically it undermines the submissions since you only win a round so people would just try for knockouts more.

Wrestling shoes...well who cares about that.

Pinning no because that would be even more boring way to end a round and jiu jitsu guys use that time to set up a submission.

You seem like a guy who simply finds grappling boring and that fine just go watch kickboxing.

Mma is fine as it is.

They do have comps with limited ground time for those who don't like the grapple.
 
OP
D

Dagon

White Belt
Joined
Mar 28, 2017
Messages
2
Reaction score
3
I like grappling just fine, what I dislike is when fighters stall on the ground. I see a lot of fights where they just hold their opponent until the bell rings instead of actually trying to do something.

The reason I thought that submissions would end a round instead of a match is that it would encourage fighters to tap more often and avoid injury because they know they still have a chance to make a comeback. I see a lot of fights in UFC where a fighter is stubborn and refuses to tap even though they are thoroughly beaten. Sometimes it goes as far as them letting their limbs get broken. Also sometimes a fighter may just make a simple mistake just once even if they by all rights have more skill or ability than the other guy overall.

As for the 3-count pin, as I said I'm not committed to that idea.
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,608
Reaction score
4,901
Location
England
I like grappling just fine, what I dislike is when fighters stall on the ground. I see a lot of fights where they just hold their opponent until the bell rings instead of actually trying to do something.
I see a lot of fights in UFC where a fighter is stubborn and refuses to tap even though they are thoroughly beaten. Sometimes it goes as far as them letting their limbs get broken.

The problem you are seeing are refereeing ones not the rules or the fighters. If fighters are laying and praying then the ref should warn he will stand them up as fighters have to be actively working when on the floor.
I'm not sure about your second comment I've quoted, it doesn't happen nearly as often as you imply, refs will stop the fight when they see a fighter not tapping to a submission that is so obviously on.
If a fighter make a mistake then so be it, it's a sport/game, it happens you can't change to rules to mitigate that.
I'm not sure why you think the 'shoe' rule is necessary, fighters usually wear what they want on their feet, the fact that the majority wear nothing is indicative of how easy it is to be caught by wearing shoes, so much harder to twist out of holds etc.

Perhaps you should relook at how you view MMA fights? Take a refereeing or judging course to really understand what the rules are as well as their evolution.
 

frank raud

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
1,867
Reaction score
696
Location
Ottawa, ON
I've mulled over this idea of a different kind of MMA sport fighting and I want to know your thoughts.

The foundation as far as rules would be by and large the official MMA or UFC rules with the following alterations:

1. A submission or "tap out" is not the end of the match, it is the end of the round. A submission grants a large amount of points. If a fighter submits multiple times in the first few rounds, they can still make a comeback by making their opponent submit or getting a K.O.

2. A knock-out is the end of a whole match. This way, a disadvantaged fighter still has a chance to win even after tapping out in a previous round. Submission by knock-out(i.e. a hold that makes a fighter pass out before they tap out), marks the end of a match as well.

3. Lightweight wrestling style shoes(with or without socks), or foot wraps, but not both at once, may be worn if desired.

4. I'm unsure of this one, but it crossed my mind: Pinning an opponent for a 3-count(like Pro Wrestling) marks the end of a round and awards a large amount of points to the fighter doing the pinning, but not as much as making your opponent tap out in a submission. I thought of this because I think it would deter people from stalling while on the ground. I've seen many fights where the fighters are on the ground and not moving much for a significant period of time. This rule would encourage fighters to do their ground fighting quickly or get up as soon as they can to keep the action flowing.

Let me know your thoughts on this and thank you for your input.

So, only 3 ways to win, points, choke(no tapping out) or knockout. 1 If a tapout ends the round, and you have lost several rounds because of tapout/submissions, how do you get ahead by submitting your opponent? Are you considering changing how many rounds a fight is? Because this won't work in a 3 round or 5 round scenario.

You've eliminated a lot of the value of grappling as armbars, heel hooks, etc are not fight enders. Fighters would rapidly evolve to attempting chokes or knockouts as the main focus. How often do you see someone actually get choked out before they tap? Shoes? who cares? 3 count pin ends the round? As so much of BJJ works off the back, again you are eliminating the value of grappling. Pro wrestlers don't do a lot of groundwork, so a short pin makes sense. Even judo gives you a longer time to become active on the ground and a pin must be held for much longer.
 

frank raud

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
1,867
Reaction score
696
Location
Ottawa, ON
Here's a scenario for you. You and I are in a match under these rules. I am the better grappler(Hey, it's my scenario). 3 rounds as it is not a title fight. I have won the first two rounds with an arm bar and a heel hook. So we can go all out for the last five minutes or I can use strategy. I present to you a perfect opportunity to submit me in an armbar, heel hook or choke. If you take the bait, I immediately tap and lose the round. But I've won the first two, so I win the fight. If you don't take it, you get penalised for lack of aggression, so I get more points. As I am the superior grappler, I now have the opportunity to submit you again, knock you out, or force you to attempt to submit me, or knock you out. You cannot win on points, you cannot win on a submission, you can only win by knocking me out. If we run the clock, I win. What's the advantage to this scenario again?
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
21,918
Reaction score
7,474
Location
Covington, WA
I'm sorry. What's the goal here? What about current MMA are we trying to improve?

Personally, I'd love to take what the dog brothers do at their gatherings of the pack, come up with a unified ruleset that could be sanctioned and then have a form of MMA that is weapons based.
 

Brian R. VanCise

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
27,758
Reaction score
1,520
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
Well, a submission fully applied would end a fight so I cannot understand why it would be any different than a knockout! Currently I like the codified mma rules and would not like to see many changes.

Steve, in reference to weapons based mma style fighting there have been several attempts at doing that but to date they have failed.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
21,918
Reaction score
7,474
Location
Covington, WA
Well, a submission fully applied would end a fight so I cannot understand why it would be any different than a knockout! Currently I like the codified mma rules and would not like to see many changes.

Steve, in reference to weapons based mma style fighting there have been several attempts at doing that but to date they have failed.
Yeah, to make it work, you'd need to come up with a rule set that is audience based.
 

Tony Dismukes

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
7,576
Reaction score
7,611
Location
Lexington, KY
The reason I thought that submissions would end a round instead of a match is that it would encourage fighters to tap more often and avoid injury because they know they still have a chance to make a comeback. I see a lot of fights in UFC where a fighter is stubborn and refuses to tap even though they are thoroughly beaten. Sometimes it goes as far as them letting their limbs get broken.
You might want to think this through a bit more. If submissions are no longer fight-enders, then the focus shifts more to knockouts - which can add up to permanent brain damage. I'd rather have a broken arm than life-long TBI symptoms. Furthermore, there's not shame in tapping to a submission, even if some fighters (very occasionally) refuse to tap out in time. In contrast, fighters are expected to keep fighting while suffering repeated head trauma until they pass out or the ref stops the fight. Your idea would trade an occasional, easily avoidable, medically repairable limb injury for significantly more permanent, unfixable brain injuries. Not a great trade-off.
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,608
Reaction score
4,901
Location
England
In contrast, fighters are expected to keep fighting while suffering repeated head trauma until they pass out or the ref stops the fight

One of the best things about MMA is that this doesn't happen as it does in boxing.

The rules have been worked out by people in MMA who have tried and tested them, they are quite reasonably fair, this is shown by the fact you have people arguing that they favour strikers and an equal amount of people saying they favour ground work so they must be in the middle with the rules :)

In any ruleset in any game/sport there will be people who think they know how they should be changed but it's much harder in reality to actually set out rules especially if you are just a fan not a referee, judge, coach, fighter etc.
 

Brian R. VanCise

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
27,758
Reaction score
1,520
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
Yeah, to make it work, you'd need to come up with a rule set that is audience based.

The rule set would definitely have to be simple, easy and enjoyable for the audience. The real sticker though is how to protect people's heads from stick blows while allowing them to have the ability to engage full contact with kicks, hands as well as submissions. That is hard. When we spar full contact with fencing masks as soon as they fall off during grappling, etc. the sticks have to be discarded or you have to stop and let them get their fencing mask back on. That would not be really conducive to a cage fighting audience experience.
 

Andrew Green

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
8,627
Reaction score
452
Location
Winnipeg MB
1. A submission or "tap out" is not the end of the match, it is the end of the round. A submission grants a large amount of points. If a fighter submits multiple times in the first few rounds, they can still make a comeback by making their opponent submit or getting a K.O.

You submit because if you don't you will suffer a crippling injury. It ends the fight, and if fully applied would send the other person to the hospital then rehab for a few months.

I think what you would end up is instead of allowing the opponent to tap more guys just cranking things to cause the injury and end the fight that way.

3. Lightweight wrestling style shoes(with or without socks), or foot wraps, but not both at once, may be worn if desired.

Sambo shoes maybe, just because I've had enough broken toes. But the trouble with shoes is you get heal hooked a lot easier. They also change the way you can kick without injuring yourself. That said, there was a time when this was the rule, it just put restrictions on kicks if worn.

I thought of this because I think it would deter people from stalling while on the ground.

there are already rules against stalling. This would change ground work completely, sometimes the safest option you have available is to be on your back.
 

KangTsai

2nd Black Belt
Joined
May 5, 2016
Messages
809
Reaction score
167
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Wait... If a round ends on a three-count pin, how the hell do you do submissions? Don't tell me you're actually talking the hamstring stretch-hold.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,337
Reaction score
8,070
Well, a submission fully applied would end a fight so I cannot understand why it would be any different than a knockout! Currently I like the codified mma rules and would not like to see many changes.

Steve, in reference to weapons based mma style fighting there have been several attempts at doing that but to date they have failed.

Medievil fighters are doing it.
 

Brian R. VanCise

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
27,758
Reaction score
1,520
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
Yes and in that format it may work. However for a FMA style event ie. like Dog Brothers or what most of us have done for years we are not wearing armor and that is the appeal to the audience because it is brutal. The problem we have is the head gear being enough protection and yet not interfering with empty hand strikes and submission grappling.
 

JP3

Master Black Belt
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
1,388
Reaction score
701
Location
Houston
4. I'm unsure of this one, but it crossed my mind: Pinning an opponent for a 3-count(like Pro Wrestling) marks the end of a round and awards a large amount of points to the fighter doing the pinning, but not as much as making your opponent tap out in a submission. I thought of this because I think it would deter people from stalling while on the ground. I've seen many fights where the fighters are on the ground and not moving much for a significant period of time. This rule would encourage fighters to do their ground fighting quickly or get up as soon as they can to keep the action flowing.

Let me know your thoughts on this and thank you for your input.

This one I'd get behind. I'm ambivalent about the other rule changes, as the sport fighting, or UFC is about fighting, and if someone taps out because of an armbar... the reason they tapped out is because the other person was about to break/fracture the limb/joint in question. Suffering such damage generally results in being unable to defend oneself, therefore, the fight is lost at that point.

For me, going past a submission is a way to simply increase the time spent fighting, rather than time spent watching "good fighting."

There is a lot to be said for the intracacies of modern groundfighting, i.e. BJJ, but it can be really boring to watch two really good guys going at it once tired and waiting on the other guy to make a mistake so they can catch them. That's why I'd support the imposition of a stalling thing, or the pin thing, just to get the action going again.

But, I'm uncertain how that would be exposed tactically, as it would favor, once again, simply learning one facet of the ground game, enough to hold someone off, in order to get stood up. So, hard problem to really solve.
 

Latest Discussions

Top