my knowledge of self defence

Chris Parker

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Hi eggg1994,

Throws, locks, chokes, strikes, and everything else can be effective for self defence... but it's not as simple as "throws are effective", or "strikes are effective". They all can be, but they can all not be at the same time, it depends on what the exact situation you are in calls for. The best self defence skill you can have is awareness, both of what is going on around you, and of what will be your best choice in any situation. And remember that most of the time, it won't be something physical.

For example, you ask what to do if someone verbally harrasses you. In many cases, the best thing to do is to ignore them and walk away. That takes away their power (you aren't there to be a target), as well as removing what they want to achieve (getting you upset). So, by removing yourself from the situation, you are actually beating them by not giving them what they want. There are other circumstances where other things are best, but for the majority, walking away is the best thing you can do.
 

Sarge

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Egggg , I am sorry, but your statements are the very thing that makes me lose my cool when it comes to BJJ. I have a essay I wrote about it on another thread here, but I will shorten it greatly here. I am not trying to belittle you or BJJ, but this crap has to stop.

BJJ is a sporting art, derived from judo, not a combat art nor is it anywhere near a self defense system. And with what you describe, you do not have experience in what is required of you when you defend yourself. I have a BB in AikiJuijitsu, and have trained for many years in various other arts, along with Military and street experience. Why? Because it takes alot of knowledge of alot of things to understand self defense. Sorry to say, trying to take me to the ground and armbar or choke me has little to do with it. Real Life situations happen so fast, and are so violent, well, good luck with that, and those moves.

You are in a Martial Art that takes many years to master and put into use, IN THE RING. I know this because I have a freind who is a BB in BJJ and I myself was offered a Blue Belt at one time, but why should I pay the cover charge and get that when I already have a BB in AikiJJ?

And here you are on a forum, with less than a years experience, telling us you know and understand what you are talking about, and how ready you are defend yourself on the streets. Many of the guys and gals on here have 20-40 years of experience, and hold multiple belts in many arts, BJJ among them. If you understood how you sound, you wouldn't say it (I hope). Most of us would tell you stop looking for trouble (which is how you come off, to me at least), study and work hard at your chosen art, and be humble.

Like the man above said, he who knows the most, usually talks the least, and I usually follow that because most the folks on here say what I would have, but I had to respond this time, because of the garbage that alot (NOT ALL) of BJJ players are brainwashed into by their instructors who ram these falsehoods down thier students throats. Do they want to see them get hurt or killed?

Here's a little advice:

First thing, throw all the macho bravado away, that so permeates BJJ, it will get you in trouble.

Second thing I will tell you is, after you are up in the ranks, take something else along with BJJ, Boxing, Kempo, Karate.. something along those lines.

I don't want to discourage you from acheiving your goals in BJJ, it is a great art to learn, but don't make it into something it is not, and don't let someone tell you that it is something it is not, that can be really dangerous.

And yes, I know in a later respose you admitted that you really don't know as much as you thought, and maybe some of your statement's intent is lost in translation, but, I hear what you have said so often from BJJ players, that I am scared for them. And I am just not going to let these stand without a response anymore.

Sarge
 
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MJS

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Just as an FYI, eggg1994 is no longer a member here, therefore he will not be able to reply to any threads.
 

Sarge

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Thanks, I guess I came to the dance late, as usual. I am trying hard to be "Nice" when it comes to this particular subject, but I have found that this is a big problem, at least with the BJJ folks around my area. They belittle anything else, and challenge people to fight. On top of that , when they issue a challenge, they want you to come to thier dojo, and play by thier rules, and if you disagree, your a wu55y or a loser.

I don't have a problem with walking away, that's easy, no big deal. What I have a huge problem with, is the instructors passing this nonsense on to thier students, along with other outright bullcrap that is going to result in someone getting hurt. And knowing the locals like I do, when it happens, they are going to tell that kid, it was his fault and if they would have applied the techniques properly, they would have won. No matter the situation.

It just really torques me off

Sarge
 

MJS

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Thanks, I guess I came to the dance late, as usual. I am trying hard to be "Nice" when it comes to this particular subject, but I have found that this is a big problem, at least with the BJJ folks around my area. They belittle anything else, and challenge people to fight. On top of that , when they issue a challenge, they want you to come to thier dojo, and play by thier rules, and if you disagree, your a wu55y or a loser.

I don't have a problem with walking away, that's easy, no big deal. What I have a huge problem with, is the instructors passing this nonsense on to thier students, along with other outright bullcrap that is going to result in someone getting hurt. And knowing the locals like I do, when it happens, they are going to tell that kid, it was his fault and if they would have applied the techniques properly, they would have won. No matter the situation.

It just really torques me off

Sarge

No problem. :) IMO, I think that all arts have something to offer, but likewise, it is a bit annoying, when someone makes something out to be the end all, be all of martial arts. Nothing against BJJ. I've got many friends who train it, I've done it, its one of the best arts to go to if you want to improve your ground game. But like all arts, it too, has its limitations.
 

Apatride

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Hi guys,

I am new here and I am far from being half as experienced in Martial Arts and self defense as most of the guys are but I would like to share my thoughts on this particular subject with you.

1) Yes, BJJ is a trend at the moment. This does not mean that it is a bad art or that its practitioners are all bad but as every trend (Boxing after Rocky, Kung Fu after Bruce Lee, Karate after Karate kid...) it tends to be he favourite choice for wanna be badass and people who have something to prove to themselves anyway. It also attracts people who are scared and looking for the best solution to their problem. No disrespect to anyone intended. The problem is not the art, not the practitioners who practice because they love the art. Just that being under the spot lights is not such a good thing for a sport.

2) What is the most useful physical training you can get for self defense ? Track and field !!!

3) Is BJJ a good choice for self defense ? This is where I have a problem:
a) BJJ is a ground specialists art. Of course, it is not only this but it takes the art of ground fighting further than most of the other arts. So considering that the main difference between BJJ and Judo is that BJJ focus even more on ground work and locks/choke and that the question is not "Is Judo or Trad JJ efficient for SD" but "Is BJJ efficient for SD", let s focus on ground and locks/chokes. (once again, I know that BJJ guys can do other things)
b) It has already been discussed, the ground is a dangerous place to be, you are stuck between the floor and whatever comes from above (helped by gravity). In this, if you use your BJJ as a way to get back on your feet (BJJ guy know that well), this is an awesome art. If you go to the floor on a purpose, well...
c) The locks and chokes are a dead end situation. As Marc Mc Young said, with every technique, there are 2 issues : the first one is that it might not work, the second one is that it might work.
If it does not work, grappling takes time and energy and put you in a difficult situation (and I am not even talking about weapons here...)
If it works and you are a police officer with some backup nearby, well done, you have used the right tool for your job. But if you are not LEO:
-What do you do if the guy does not calm down ? Have you practiced drills to release the lock and move away safely ?
-If the guy is intoxicated, you will injure him before he feels it and run into problems
-Chokes are often considered lethal force
-Keeping a guy on the floor in a lock iis an offence in many countries

So you might win the fight but be aware of legal issues when it comes to grappling in general.

Once again, this is only about one part of BJJ. I know that BJJ can be applied legally and succesfuly but the limits have to be known. A suicide throw where you use the momentum to end up in a mount position over your opponent is a great way to cover some distance fast and stay in a good position while neutralising one opponent but you need to be able to get up immediately if needed and this exists in other arts. An arm bar, on the other hand (it exxists in other arts too BTW) is probably the dumbest move you can pull in a real fight (unless the idea is to restrain drunk uncle Albert at a family meeting and even there, you might injure him).
 

K831

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@ Apatride - some interesting points, thanks.

@ Sarge - I've run into you in a few threads now and we seem to share a similar thought and have had similar experiences with BJJ and BJJ instructors/practitioners. As with all topics, the BJJ/Ground stuff for SD has people on both sides and in the middle... it comes up "every so often" around here, so you will have plenty of chances to work on "keeping your cool" :) As you look through older threads, you will find several long discussions on the topic with good points on both sides. There was one some 6 months or a year ago that both MJS and I posted in quite a bit that I thought had good back and forth discussion, you may find it interesting... anyhow, welcome to the forum and good luck! ;)
 

LuckyKBoxer

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Hi guys,

I am new here and I am far from being half as experienced in Martial Arts and self defense as most of the guys are but I would like to share my thoughts on this particular subject with you.

1) Yes, BJJ is a trend at the moment. This does not mean that it is a bad art or that its practitioners are all bad but as every trend (Boxing after Rocky, Kung Fu after Bruce Lee, Karate after Karate kid...) it tends to be he favourite choice for wanna be badass and people who have something to prove to themselves anyway. It also attracts people who are scared and looking for the best solution to their problem. No disrespect to anyone intended. The problem is not the art, not the practitioners who practice because they love the art. Just that being under the spot lights is not such a good thing for a sport.

2) What is the most useful physical training you can get for self defense ? Track and field !!!

3) Is BJJ a good choice for self defense ? This is where I have a problem:
a) BJJ is a ground specialists art. Of course, it is not only this but it takes the art of ground fighting further than most of the other arts. So considering that the main difference between BJJ and Judo is that BJJ focus even more on ground work and locks/choke and that the question is not "Is Judo or Trad JJ efficient for SD" but "Is BJJ efficient for SD", let s focus on ground and locks/chokes. (once again, I know that BJJ guys can do other things)
b) It has already been discussed, the ground is a dangerous place to be, you are stuck between the floor and whatever comes from above (helped by gravity). In this, if you use your BJJ as a way to get back on your feet (BJJ guy know that well), this is an awesome art. If you go to the floor on a purpose, well...
c) The locks and chokes are a dead end situation. As Marc Mc Young said, with every technique, there are 2 issues : the first one is that it might not work, the second one is that it might work.
If it does not work, grappling takes time and energy and put you in a difficult situation (and I am not even talking about weapons here...)
If it works and you are a police officer with some backup nearby, well done, you have used the right tool for your job. But if you are not LEO:
-What do you do if the guy does not calm down ? Have you practiced drills to release the lock and move away safely ?
-If the guy is intoxicated, you will injure him before he feels it and run into problems
-Chokes are often considered lethal force
-Keeping a guy on the floor in a lock iis an offence in many countries

So you might win the fight but be aware of legal issues when it comes to grappling in general.

Once again, this is only about one part of BJJ. I know that BJJ can be applied legally and succesfuly but the limits have to be known. A suicide throw where you use the momentum to end up in a mount position over your opponent is a great way to cover some distance fast and stay in a good position while neutralising one opponent but you need to be able to get up immediately if needed and this exists in other arts. An arm bar, on the other hand (it exxists in other arts too BTW) is probably the dumbest move you can pull in a real fight (unless the idea is to restrain drunk uncle Albert at a family meeting and even there, you might injure him).

1. I don't think BJJ is a trend. Its been going on for over 50 years in Brazil, and growing still in popularity in the United States for the last 18 years.
how long does something have to go before it stops being a Fad? or a Trend? and the next trend is moved on to?

2. Sure you use that track and field while the guy has your wife and 5 year old kid standing in front of him.

3.a. like any other art BJJ has a specific focus, that focus can be directly applied to stand up arts, and directly helps any art that has in close fighting. It depends on the goals of the person training it. I have never met any strand up artist who can work in the clinch as well as many of the best BJJ fighters.
b.you forget what if the person you are fighting is bigger, stronger, faster and is kicked your *** at all the stand up ranges.. you last choices are to pray he gets tired of beating your ***, you have someone come save you, or you take it to the ground range and use your skills to regain advantage and end the threat to yourself... its an intensive study of two ranges primarily, the ground range, and the clinch/takedown/throw range.
c.the rest of your argument is more based in morals and ethics then in the martial art itself. you face similar types of problems with any stand up art. if you hit a guy and he falls backward and hits head and dies?? if you poke a guy in the eye and it blinds him for life?? if you kick a guy in the groin and end his ability to reproduce?? If you kick a guys knee and it maims him for life?? if you go to punch and he has a knife and stabs you in the chest?? you can go on and on, it has nothing to do with the art of BJJ, it simply is possibilities in any situation you run into.

like any tools in any martial art the armbar has specific usage. lots of stand up arts teach tools that are foolish to use in certain situations.... lets see a kung fu artist use his deep stance when i throw him in a 5 foot deep pool and jump in and start smacking him around.

lets see see a traditional karate stylist throw one of those powerful stright punches, or a TKD guy throw one of those head kicks when i toss them into a phone booth and start beating them up with my elbows and knees...

everything and every situation is fluid.

I can think of as many scenarios where BJJ movements will be the best scenario to deal with a hostile situation, as I can for scenarios where it would the last thing you would want to use.

as soon as people get past this whole bullcrap about XXXX art is better then XXXX art and start thinking of what tools they are able to utilize the best for any given situation, based on their skill level and their attributes, the better people will be.
 

Apatride

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1) BJJ is not only a trend, it is a well rounded MA. But at the moment, it does not only get attention from Martial Artists, it also gets attention from Hollywood and people who do not know anything about MAs (and who will switch to something else as soon as it becomes more popular). So it is not just a trend but yes, it is still a trend.

2) Once again, I don t live in the USA and I still have troubles understanding what people face in the USA. But in Europe, there are not that many places where you can get into trouble and where you HAVE to be. If my girlfriend is with me, we only walk through relatively safe areas. If it can be dodgy, we turn back and grab a taxi. The only place/situation I can think of where danger exists and that can not always be avoided is public transportation (mainly train/subway) and even there, running to get some help (or a weapon) might be wiser than bravely staying and ending up helpless watching her being raped (my worst nightmare). In most of the cases, bad guys will neutralise the threat before having fun so outrunning them might be way more efficient than staying and get neutralised.

3) a. I do not underestimate BJJ as a stand up art but which percentage of training is spent working the clinch compared to Judo or Wrestling? I agree that BJJ can produce awesome clinch fighters but it is not absurd to say that the higher the percentage of training in one "range", the better you get at it. So BJJ is not the ultimate stand up art (it seems to be the ultimate one on the ground though, I agree with this)

b. Sure, ground game is not to be underestimated, especially because you have good chances to get there even if it is not on purpose. But, like everything else (including track&field), it is made for specific situations. If you get to the ground and that the guy is better than you, are you not completely screwed too? This might be my lack of practice talking but I have more trouble getting back up rather than taking someone down so for me the ground is a place to go if everything else fails, not the first place to go.

For the rest, I fully agree with you. I am not trying to say that this kung fu is better than this kung fu. Just point out that a MA is like a toolbox and like every tool box, it has its strengths and weaknesses, you can probably fix a car with a plumber toolbox, it might be more difficult than with a mechanics toolbox but does this mean that the mechanics toolbox is better than the plumber one?

So don t get me wrong, I have nothing against BJJ, but I don t like the "BJJ is perfect for everything" as well as I don t like the "my MA kicks BJJ *ss"
 

Indie12

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hey i know alot about self defence and place's in the human body you could attack.
there are the vital pressure points which are the ear, nose, thout, groin, and the arteries in the neck. i know alot about the principel's of joint locking and choke application's like for example if the grabed you on the shoulder you could distract them with a palm strike to the face and then grab the wrist and twist it toward's their body and then their bodies reaction would be to drop to the ground. i know alot of defensive technique's like defence from a haymaker, choke from behind, front choke with both hands, headlock, and many more. i also know some follow up strikes which i could use for attack's to distract them so they could give me a joint i could minipulate easly. i know this because of my 1yr of training in brazilian jiu jitsu which i heard was one of the most effective forms of self defence in the world. i am an orange belt in jiu jitsu not japanease jiu jitsu but the brazilian jiu jitsu. if yall have anything to say about my knowledge of self defence then you can post anything you would like for me to discuss.

Sounds like a combination of arrogance and boldness!
 

Chris Parker

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Indie, you may want to go back to the first page again.... Eggg was (and still is, really, although he is no longer a member here) a 16 year old boy suffering from autism. He sees the world in very black-and-white categories, and was pretty much just echoing what his instructor had said to him. If he was "normal" (whatever that means....), then I'd agree with you, but Eggg was really a special case. Unfortunately, he turned out to be a bit too special for the site to look after the way he would have needed (which includes people making comments like yours above, as that would typically result in a rather angry responce from him).
 
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