The elusive Self Defence Version of Gracie Jiu Jitsu

[dunc]

which means you're the latest person on the internet to claim to be that elusive unicorn, the ninja ground master who trains on his feet, but knows the ground well enough to not want to be there.

I guess that makes me a unicorn ;-)

Seriously ’though there are clearly limitations to ground fighting - these are generally overstated by folk who don’t train BJJ
There are also clearly limitations from rolling under a rule set - these are generally underestimated by folk who only train combat sports

Pretty much sums up most of these kind of conversations I think

 

[Hanzou]

I guess that makes me a unicorn ;-)

Seriously ’though there are clearly limitations to ground fighting - these are generally overstated by folk who don’t train BJJ
There are also clearly limitations from rolling under a rule set - these are generally underestimated by folk who only train combat sports

Pretty much sums up most of these kind of conversations I think

There’s no way to train without a ruleset though. You can’t maim or murder your training partners. Training with a rubber knife is training with a ruleset, because you’re unlikely going to want to slash and stab your training partner with a live blade.

In terms of rolling, it doesn’t take a great deal of effort to add gloves and a mouthpiece and incorporate striking while grappling. In fact, that’s a foundation of GJJ/BJJ.

 

[dunc]

There’s no way to train without a ruleset though. You can’t maim or murder your training partners. Training with a rubber knife is training with a ruleset, because you’re unlikely going to want to slash and stab your training partner with a live blade.

In terms of rolling, it doesn’t take a great deal of effort to add gloves and a mouthpiece and incorporate striking while grappling. In fact, that’s a foundation of GJJ/BJJ.

Yes of course
The impact of training under (formal &/or informal) rulesets over time have on the development of a style are quite profound I think

 

[Hanzou]

Hello Jusroc,

I'll offer my insight in hopes of guiding your path to learned self-defense groundwork.

My grappling training is from the Tagaki Yoshen Ryu, and I considered myself an excellent grappler. Until I grappled with some high level GJJ practioners-they owned me- but I was working within the context of the competition rules. In self-defense there are no rules, no ref, and no illegal techniques. That said, barring the more dangerous techniques, GJJ is that much more absolutely solid in it's basic principles and tactics, however as Tony Dismukes explained above, the strategy is taught mainly from a sport-fighting perspective.

The key differences, as I see it, is that first of all, on the street you do not want to go to the ground. you want your attacker on the ground, you on your feet(or one knee), unpinned, unentangled, head up eyes alert and ready to move quickly in any direction. you want that, but you may be on the ground with your attacker on top of you from the first anyway, and you must have the basic do's and don't's of groundwork under your belt. GJJ will provide that, but strategically it is a bad idea to seek to put yourself on the ground, depending on your skills and the circumstances, of course. I have known people who were so good on the ground that they could take out multiple attackers easily from below, but if you are that good, you already know that.

in the ring, taking someone down and positioning for an arm-bar is a good strategy. you can afford to rest on your back and let your opponent wear himself down until the right moment to seize advantage presents itself. on the street there could be a second attacker, or the first could reveal a weapon. in Takagi Yoshen Ryu, the attackers arm should already be broken before he hits the ground, and immediate escape is the strategy. Any take-down or submission hold that ties you up and entangles you with your opponent's body makes you vulnerable and should be avoided.

I personally prefer shoulder locks to arm bars when I'm in a dominant position. If I'm in an inferior or neutral position, I'll take what I can get. That said, if you're on your back and someone is on top of you, knowing guard is critical for self defense.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes of course
The impact of training under (formal &/or informal) rulesets over time have on the development of a style are quite profound I think

Well sure, but I think we sometimes get into the weeds with some styles training with rulesets. I used to see this a lot with classical JJ stylists when they would refer to Judo, implying that it is an incomplete style since they don't train striking outside of kata. I also see quite a bit of this when TMA stylists referring to sport systems. The simple reality is that just because you train with rules doesn't mean those rules get programmed into your brain. I know plenty of people who do wrestling for example, and they would have no issue slamming someone on their head and paralyzing them for life (if not outright killing them).

Take this for example;

https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/comments/pdd3y1

Here, the guy on the bottom is using Rubber guard, a sport technique, to achieve dominant position. Once he achieves it, he immediately goes into non-sportive tactics, attacking his opponent's head brutally.

In short, the training is just a guideline, and the student will fill-in the rest. If you train someone how to make their enemy helpless and vulnerable, it falls on the student to go from there in an ethical or moral fashion.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Take this for example;

https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/comments/pdd3y1

Wow, Omoplata smash...narrowly avoided. I was biting my lip there for a second...

People who think the beat down at the end is brutal, might not catch the fact that the loser almost lost an arm instead of some skin and pride.

 

[tim po]

Wow, Omoplata smash...narrowly avoided. I was biting my lip there for a second...

People who think the beat down at the end is brutal, might not catch the fact that the loser almost lost an arm instead of some skin and pride.

I personally prefer shoulder locks to arm bars when I'm in a dominant position. If I'm in an inferior or neutral position, I'll take what I can get. That said, if you're on your back and someone is on top of you,

Wow, Omoplata smash...narrowly avoided. I was biting my lip there for a second...

People who think the beat down at the end is brutal, might not catch the fact that the loser almost lost an arm instead of some skin and pride.

the beat down is no more brutal than what is displayed in professional MMA sport fighting. the only difference is the pavement. these two were not friends, obviously, but they were not trying to kill one another. this was a 'casual fight'. the onlookers(they obviously all knew one another) who filmed it stepped in and broke it up right about when the referee would have. it does not illustrate a contradiction to my original point, that training to work on the ground should not impel you to take a fight there in unfamiliar circumstances.

 

[Hanzou]

the beat down is no more brutal than what is displayed in professional MMA sport fighting. the only difference is the pavement. these two were not friends, obviously, but they were not trying to kill one another. this was a 'casual fight'. the onlookers(they obviously all knew one another) who filmed it stepped in and broke it up right about when the referee would have.

There are few instances where someone is trying to intentionally kill you. However, in the case described above, someone smashing someone's head into concrete can in fact be lethal. On the flip side, someone on top of you punching you in the head continuously can also lead to serious injury or death. While people were there to break this up, it doesn't change the fact that both parties had the chance to get seriously injured.

Here is another situaiton;

https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/arz5i9

In this case the person's shoulder gets dislocated. (graphic)

it does not illustrate a contradiction to my original point, that training to work on the ground should not impel you to take a fight there in unfamiliar circumstances.

Well that entirely depends. There are times where you are forced to the ground against your will and must fight from there. There are also cases where taking your opponent to the ground is advantageous to your situation. Obviously everything must be taken on a case by case basis, and good judgement must be used. However, we shouldn't make blanket statements about an entire realm of fighting.

 

[tim po]

There are few instances where someone is trying to intentionally kill you. However, in the case described above, someone smashing someone's head into concrete can in fact be lethal. On the flip side, someone on top of you punching you in the head continuously can also lead to serious injury or death. While people were there to break this up, it doesn't change the fact that both parties had the chance to get seriously injured.

Here is another situaiton;

https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/arz5i9

In this case the person's shoulder gets dislocated. (graphic)



Well that entirely depends. There are times where you are forced to the ground against your will and must fight from there. There are also cases where taking your opponent to the ground is advantageous to your situation. Obviously everything must be taken on a case by case basis, and good judgement must be used. However, we shouldn't make blanket statements about an entire realm of fighting.

nor have i. if you read my original response.

 

[tim po]

While people were there to break this up, it doesn't change the fact that both parties had the chance to get seriously injured.

if the people there were concerned with either of their friends being seriously injured, they would have broken it up sooner. as for that second video, i dont know wtf to say as there was a crowd nearby and clearly not a f*** was given that day. all the better reason to stay off the damn ground, if you can at all help it! if you can't, seek to get the hell up asap!

this thread is about adapting GJJ to self-defense from sport. that is what i was responding to, read the original response. you guys keep posting videos of fights in public places. you're not going to see a video of a real violent attack people! you're friends aren't going to film it, then casually break it up once you're dead.

 

[Hanzou]

if the people there were concerned with either of their friends being seriously injured, they would have broken it up sooner. as for that second video, i dont know wtf to say as there was a crowd nearby and clearly not a f*** was given that day. all the better reason to stay off the damn ground, if you can at all help it! if you can't, seek to get the hell up asap!

Which is different than what you stated earlier. You said that the video wasn't a life threatening situation because friends were nearby. Again, ground and pound and banging people's heads on concrete is potentially lethal.

this thread is about adapting GJJ to self-defense from sport. that is what i was responding to, read the original response. you guys keep posting videos of fights in public places. you're not going to see a video of a real violent attack people! you're friends aren't going to film it, then casually break it up once you're dead.

Except GJJ is self defense based. In fact in recent years GJJ has codified itself it a more self defense based system in order to distinguish itself from general BJJ which is becoming more sport based over the years as sport BJJ has become more popular. You also miss the point of the original video. The defender in that video used a sport-based technique to regain dominant position and pummel his opponent in the face. The point being that just because it is a sport-based technique doesn't mean that it doesn't have a self-defense application.

We post fights in public places because fights in someone's bedroom, in a dark alleyway, or when they're getting kidnapped tend to not be videotaped. That said, if it works in a public place, there's no reason it shouldn't work in those situations as well.

 

[tim po]

Which is different than what you stated earlier. You said that the video wasn't a life threatening situation because friends were nearby. Again, ground and pound and banging people's heads on concrete is potentially lethal.



Except GJJ is self defense based. In fact in recent years GJJ has codified itself it a more self defense based system in order to distinguish itself from general BJJ which is becoming more sport based over the years as sport BJJ has become more popular. You also miss the point of the original video. The defender in that video used a sport-based technique to regain dominant position and pummel his opponent in the face. The point being that just because it is a sport-based technique doesn't mean that it doesn't have a self-defense application.

We post fights in public places because fights in someone's bedroom, in a dark alleyway, or when they're getting kidnapped tend to not be videotaped. That said, if it works in a public place, there's no reason it shouldn't work in those situations as well.

the rubber guard video showed excellent jujutsu. or jiu jitsu, as is most likely his training. no doubt, it works. no doubt, this was a 'real fight' and yes, they were trying to hurt one another. and no doubt, they both chose to enter this contest to resolve some social dilemma. fighting is fighting. JJ works well for fighting, and it works well in self defense. i never denied that.
it is clear you can only see what you can see. and since it is all you can see you assume that is all that there is to see. i will waste no more time with you.

 

[Hanzou]

the rubber guard video showed excellent jujutsu. or jiu jitsu, as is most likely his training. no doubt, it works. no doubt, this was a 'real fight' and yes, they were trying to hurt one another. and no doubt, they both chose to enter this contest to resolve some social dilemma. fighting is fighting. JJ works well for fighting, and it works well in self defense. i never denied that.

So what was your point in this thread? That if you're in a dangerous situation you shouldn't purposely fall face first into the pavement?

 

[Oily Dragon]

That 2nd omoplata video was like smooth jazz and a neat scotch, Hanzou. Like a boa constrictor crushing a mouse.

Had to watch it a few times, just a refresher on why BJJ is one of the most dangerous styles in history.

The way I see it, BJJ just wants to be jujutsu again. And everyone is welcome....the hobbyists, sportos, and the Street Samurai.

 

[dunc]

Worth noting that JJ has many techniques where you choose to go to the ground
For example the Takagi Yoshin Ryu has a large suitemi section
There's also some crazy stuff in the ninpo traditions where you drop to the floor (albeit for rather specific reasons/scenarios)

 

[tim po]

So what was your point in this thread? That if you're in a dangerous situation you shouldn't purposely fall face first into the pavement?

don't really feel like saying it all, again.

 

[drop bear]

Worth noting that JJ has many techniques where you choose to go to the ground
For example the Takagi Yoshin Ryu has a large suitemi section
There's also some crazy stuff in the ninpo traditions where you drop to the floor (albeit for rather specific reasons/scenarios)

 

[Hanzou]

Those damn kids and their leg locks......

 

[drop bear]

Those damn kids and their leg locks......

I am still not up to speed with them. But I wrist lock people instead.

 

[Hanzou]

I am still not up to speed with them. But I wrist lock people instead.

The new generation of submission grapplers are getting extremely well versed in them, and developing new entries to better exploit them. The speed of leg lock evolution is crazy right now in BJJ especially since the IBJJF loosened up restrictions on their use. Some of the stuff these kids are doing now is completely unrecognizable to old GJJ farts like me.