Multiple attackers

[Si-Je]

Do you train against multiple attackers at your school? If so, how do you train and when do you start sparring and training with multiple attackers? What techniques do you use? Are they different than when you spar one on one, or is the approach just different?

 

[Seeker]

We've been doing it with focus-mitts.

Groups of 3, two with the pads and 1 in the middle with the one in the middle focusing on not allowing him/herself to be surrounded or blind-sided. Also using one of the attackers as a shield against the other by moving them around. It's exhausting! But fun.

I've yet to see any multiple attacker sparing at our school yet.

 

[tellner]

Fighting two people is a lot different than fighting one.
Fighting three is different than two.
After about four it's just a matter of aerobic fitness.

Are the techniques different? Maybe, maybe not. I find that I use bits and pieces that look the same as things I'd use against one person. But everything is different.

In no particular order....

You have to be comfortable with lots of chaos and use it to your advantage. The more disorder the more it affects the group. You only have to keep two feet under you. They have to keep from tripping over six or eight or ten.

Threats are everywhere, but so are things to hurt. Think of it as a target-rich environment, and the whole thing is a lot less threatening.

Move. Move. Move. The better you are the less you have to move, but you can't just stand in one place.

Train so that you can hit two or three things at a time in different directions. This will go against a lot of your training. Don't worry about it. This is training for a different sort of fight. Lots of blows can continue on and hit a different target. The elbow you used to hit the guy off to the left can become a backfist in the face of the one behind you. A sweep can finish off as a knee further along the same arc.

I know you're a Wing Chun player. Forget everything they ever told you about pointing your centerline at the opponent and using that structure to defeat him. There is more than one opponent. If you've lined yourself up to finish the fight with him you've left everything else open. You need to be able to parry or check, hit, redirect, kick or whatever else you do in all directions.

A knockout punch is no good if you're getting stabbed in the kidneys.

You're not fighting three or four guys one at a time like in the movies. You're in a fight where there are always three or four other guys. Use them to interfere with one another. Line them up so they get in each other's way. Move them into each other and cause damage while they're re-orienting.

Your hands and feet have to work independently but support each other. If your upper body is in trouble your lower body has to take care of the other business and vice versa.

Use your eyes to see stuff that is far away. Use your body to feel what's going on close up.

On the subject of eyes, soften your focus. Don't stare or fix on anything. Sometimes I point my eyes at the ground so my peripheral vision takes in all the legs and bodies around me. Sometimes I point them off into space. In any case, peripheral vision is key. And it's the key to avoiding all the bad parts of adrenaline response.

Stay low. Be prepared to spend some time on the ground, but only long enough to be up and moving again. Your legs had better be in good shape.

Ground grappling and tight clinching have their place. But they are much more dangerous than in a one-on-one confrontation. Using an enemy as a shield is a good tactic. You don't want to be tied up and unable to move. Be ready to toss or drop your shield when it's time to do something else.

Don't think. If you stop to think you will die.

Don't pre-plan. In a one-on-one fight the random chaos of the universe turns plans to crud within the first few moves. With more than one person that's squared and cubed.

You can't time the opponents. All you can do is keep your own timing good.

Loosen up.

Don't worry about blocking. Cover lines instead. Cover doesn't mean "Have an impenetrable block in place." It means be moving through or have something in the general vicinity of the lines. High and low. Near and far.

Think less like a solid rock in the surf and more like a neutron in a reactor or a bouncy spiked bowling ball. That sounds a little weird, but it helps me.

Hurt the guy who's hanging back.

Take out the leader.

Relax and enjoy!

 

[Si-Je]

I know you're a Wing Chun player. Forget everything they ever told you about pointing your centerline at the opponent and using that structure to defeat him. There is more than one opponent. If you've lined yourself up to finish the fight with him you've left everything else open. You need to be able to parry or check, hit, redirect, kick or whatever else you do in all directions.

Awesome post! And thank you for the advice on flowing through and around the chaos of your attackers. This is something I'm working on but am only able to train this on rare occasion.
I see what you mean about centerline, but just to clarify. Alot of people often think that the theory of keeping your opponent "in" your centerline generally means your in "their" centerline too. Face to face, so to speak.
This isn't necessary, you don't worry about their centerline as much as your own. (and often not advantageous even in one on one fighting to be face to face for long)
Meaning when you keep your centerline on or facing the opponent you may be facing their side, or back. You keep your centerline facing the areas on them you want to strike, so you can attack with "all fours" so to speak, more effectiently. (both arms and legs)

A frontal assault doesn't always work with multiple attackers, your going to want to get around to the side of somebody right off the bat, hurt them, take them down quick, and/or use them as a shield to work your way from the other attackers. I've found the first guy you attack usually ends up being the shield to get you out from between everyone else. But, I'm still really new to this.

I still freak out sometimes and end up in the middle of everyone. lol! One time I did that between two guys and they both straight punched me to my face. I freaked and tan sau'd both punches and latched both their arms pulling them behind me as I ran between the two. I don't know why, but this worked. lol!
As they turned around to get me again (laughing), this time around I did right and picked an attacker and a side to work to get away from the other guy while I struck the first.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Very interesting drill that sounds pretty cool!!!!

We've been doing it with focus-mitts.

Groups of 3, two with the pads and 1 in the middle with the one in the middle focusing on not allowing him/herself to be surrounded or blind-sided. Also using one of the attackers as a shield against the other by moving them around. It's exhausting! But fun.

I've yet to see any multiple attacker sparing at our school yet.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Is that you Sifu?

Is this your name on Martialtalk? This is Yoshiyahu...I am sorry you sound like my Sifu...many things my WC sifu has also taught me about fighting multiple attackers...So true. You are so right. I can't believe it?


Wow...This is so true. In a fight you do what you gotta do. Do what works. Your not bound by rules in a fight for your life or to protect your love ones. You are to become a threat to your attackers, take them out. Be able to move in linear and circle paths. Stay out the middle. Attack each guy on the corners and move to next. Do as much damage as possible aiming for only vital points. No time to get wrapped up feeling. Just hurt him and get out.


So true. The Low kick rule is out. Kick their faces off if you have too!

Kick their legs in...kick their asses.

No time for stagnation keep moving is right...so true. Flying Elbows,backfist side kicks, groin kicks throat punches and strikes etc etc.

great great....

Fighting two people is a lot different than fighting one.
Fighting three is different than two.
After about four it's just a matter of aerobic fitness.

Are the techniques different? Maybe, maybe not. I find that I use bits and pieces that look the same as things I'd use against one person. But everything is different.

In no particular order....

You have to be comfortable with lots of chaos and use it to your advantage. The more disorder the more it affects the group. You only have to keep two feet under you. They have to keep from tripping over six or eight or ten.

Threats are everywhere, but so are things to hurt. Think of it as a target-rich environment, and the whole thing is a lot less threatening.

Move. Move. Move. The better you are the less you have to move, but you can't just stand in one place.

Train so that you can hit two or three things at a time in different directions. This will go against a lot of your training. Don't worry about it. This is training for a different sort of fight. Lots of blows can continue on and hit a different target. The elbow you used to hit the guy off to the left can become a backfist in the face of the one behind you. A sweep can finish off as a knee further along the same arc.

I know you're a Wing Chun player. Forget everything they ever told you about pointing your centerline at the opponent and using that structure to defeat him. There is more than one opponent. If you've lined yourself up to finish the fight with him you've left everything else open. You need to be able to parry or check, hit, redirect, kick or whatever else you do in all directions.

A knockout punch is no good if you're getting stabbed in the kidneys.

You're not fighting three or four guys one at a time like in the movies. You're in a fight where there are always three or four other guys. Use them to interfere with one another. Line them up so they get in each other's way. Move them into each other and cause damage while they're re-orienting.

Your hands and feet have to work independently but support each other. If your upper body is in trouble your lower body has to take care of the other business and vice versa.

Use your eyes to see stuff that is far away. Use your body to feel what's going on close up.

On the subject of eyes, soften your focus. Don't stare or fix on anything. Sometimes I point my eyes at the ground so my peripheral vision takes in all the legs and bodies around me. Sometimes I point them off into space. In any case, peripheral vision is key. And it's the key to avoiding all the bad parts of adrenaline response.

Stay low. Be prepared to spend some time on the ground, but only long enough to be up and moving again. Your legs had better be in good shape.

Ground grappling and tight clinching have their place. But they are much more dangerous than in a one-on-one confrontation. Using an enemy as a shield is a good tactic. You don't want to be tied up and unable to move. Be ready to toss or drop your shield when it's time to do something else.

Don't think. If you stop to think you will die.

Don't pre-plan. In a one-on-one fight the random chaos of the universe turns plans to crud within the first few moves. With more than one person that's squared and cubed.

You can't time the opponents. All you can do is keep your own timing good.

Loosen up.

Don't worry about blocking. Cover lines instead. Cover doesn't mean "Have an impenetrable block in place." It means be moving through or have something in the general vicinity of the lines. High and low. Near and far.

Think less like a solid rock in the surf and more like a neutron in a reactor or a bouncy spiked bowling ball. That sounds a little weird, but it helps me.

Hurt the guy who's hanging back.

Take out the leader.

Relax and enjoy!

 

[mook jong man]

You should still use centre line theory but now your centre line will be pointing at his back because you have positioned yourself in such away that all your opponents are lined up .

Do not be caught in the centre of the mass try to keep them all in front of you and stay positioned so that they are lined up , this makes it harder for them because they have to get past their jerk wad friends to get to you .

Do not do more than three strikes , their are penalties for over engagement , as others have said use the first clown as a shield , take him out and then move on to the next one , keeping them lined up as you go , its all about positioning .

You will find yourself using a lot lateral movement footwork , shuffleing around in a semi circle as you move around the group always staying on the out side .

Also if you don't have a low side kick or medium side kick in your arsenal I strongly suggest you add it , this can buy you time if you are already engaged with some one , just in case some pesky scumbag does manage to get around to the side of you ( remember I said there are penalties for over engagement , no more than three strikes and make em count .

 

[chav buster]

Pretty much every class has some form of multiple attack drill in it.

 

[JadeDragon3]

By about the third belt we start sparring 2 on 1 and 3 on 1. The techniques that we learn to use when dealing with multiple attackers are tecniques that are going to end the fight quick (knee strikes, groin shots, etc...). We also are taught to use kicks to keep the attackers at bay (far away as possible).

 

[seasoned]

Take out the biggest and loudest one first. If he is big, and not saying anything, take him out anyway. In doing so, you may break the moral of the others. The threat comes from their mobility, so keep all kicks low, and do not let them flank you. It is important to stay on your feet, because if they get you down, you will catch cheap shots from their close by friends.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Thank you Seasoned. Sounds like some pretty sound advice...great. Thankyou for your post!

Take out the biggest and loudest one first. If he is big, and not saying anything, take him out anyway. In doing so, you may break the moral of the others. The threat comes from their mobility, so keep all kicks low, and do not let them flank you. It is important to stay on your feet, because if they get you down, you will catch cheap shots from their close by friends.

 

[mook jong man]

Take out the biggest and loudest one first. If he is big, and not saying anything, take him out anyway. In doing so, you may break the moral of the others. The threat comes from their mobility, so keep all kicks low, and do not let them flank you. It is important to stay on your feet, because if they get you down, you will catch cheap shots from their close by friends.

Yes , good point , the use of psychological warfare could sway the odds in your favour .
Attack the alpha male leader first and make an example of him, this might weaken the resolve of the group and you may not end up having to fight the rest of them .

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Take out the biggest and loudest one first. If he is big, and not saying anything, take him out anyway. In doing so, you may break the moral of the others. The threat comes from their mobility, so keep all kicks low, and do not let them flank you. It is important to stay on your feet, because if they get you down, you will catch cheap shots from their close by friends.

Well, as others all I can do is agree I also would like to add that this stuff is probalby more important than techniqes alone. With agresion, in my opinion, being THE most importan factor in a confrontation. My EBMAS instructor used to say something along the lines: agression is 99% of the fight and technique that other percent.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you think Wing Chun is an aggressive art?

Well, as others all I can do is agree I also would like to add that this stuff is probalby more important than techniqes alone. With agresion, in my opinion, being THE most importan factor in a confrontation. My EBMAS instructor used to say something along the lines: agression is 99% of the fight and technique that other percent.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Do you think Wing Chun is an aggressive art?

Well, yes I do. Infact I would say WC is half agression and half defence. My instructore on the other hand would say it's an agresive defence. One of his favorite sayings was: I'm not agresive, my hands just want to go forward Which was a lie in my opinion, he was agresive But it ilustrates a point. And I think that becouse of the WC principals that tell your hands to just go forward it helps an unagresive guy do his thing as long as he follows the principals.

But I also think if the most skillful WC guy(in a sense of ChiSao or something) has never been in a fight/doesn't know how to take a punch or is affraid to hit properly he will most likely lose against an experienced streetfighter.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

What about a Wing Chun guy who grew up in a bad neighbor where every one fought. An his friends that he did Wing Chun with loved to fight...
An every time you try to do Chi Sau with one of your bigger and taller Wing Chun brothers they always moved up to hard on sparring...I remember the worst hit I received was a Elbow to the Nose...Oh the pain I tell you...It made my tear ducks wet...But that was by a brother that like to fight. Since I was the littlest guy. Most people who knew I practice something would always try to jump me. An I am talking about my friends. I remember one day this really muscular guy and another friend of mines had me back up against the wall. They were suprise How I was able to block all their punches. They were throwing them really fast trying to hit me hard as hell in chest and stomach. My only chance was to grab one of them an throw them into the other. So I could escape to a posistion where I wasn't back against the wall. I sparred guys who loved to kick in the park. I sparred guys who loved to jab your face like crazy. But through it all its the experience that makes your art better. Not just endless drills, forms and stance training. You have to fight, spar, Shadow Box, Chi Sau with a partner, Chi Sau by your self, Hit the wooden man, Hit the Trees, Punch the bag, drop force down on a bag or rock. These are the keys to growing your Art along with doing Drills, Practicing Forms, Practing your stances, Practicing your punches and kicks. So your statement I am totally in agreement with. Your right some people are unfortunate enough to live where people always have something to prove. These people usually become better Martial Artist. Because they have a real reason to practice other than for their health. They practice not to just look good or for the love of the art but because they have to beat **** or be beaten. Thats the good thing about competitons,san shou,mma, kick boxing tournments, TKD olympics and Karate Tournaments. Even though all those have rules and regulations that are not met out on street it still gives the average joe a chance to feel being hit or kick. To have a real reason to put those guards up and defend. I agree though with your Sifu that Wing Chun defense is aggressive. My Sifu always said to attack when your offending and attack when your defending. Attack when you advance and attack when you move back.

But please share a little more on what you think aggressive means?

Well, yes I do. Infact I would say WC is half agression and half defence. My instructore on the other hand would say it's an agresive defence. One of his favorite sayings was: I'm not agresive, my hands just want to go forward Which was a lie in my opinion, he was agresive But it ilustrates a point. And I think that becouse of the WC principals that tell your hands to just go forward it helps an unagresive guy do his thing as long as he follows the principals.

But I also think if the most skillful WC guy(in a sense of ChiSao or something) has never been in a fight/doesn't know how to take a punch or is affraid to hit properly he will most likely lose against an experienced streetfighter.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Damn, sounds like lausy friends to me. Where you sparring or did the want to kick the living **** out of you everytime they saw you? Well I would like to answer to your post like this: people argue that WC is more effective than this and that and that Krav Maga can do some serious deamage to most styles but where I live the most feared street fighter who sopposedly never lost, most people are affraid of him and has been in numerous fights is not a WCer and a KM guy neither is a he MT or a Pekita Tirsia Kali guy but hes a Kickboxer. Now you people can interpret this the way you like, but what I want to say with it is that when it comes down to fighting and who wins a style is just one of MANY factors which decide who wins.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well I have no idea what the most effective Art would be...I think it depends on the person...

Your style could be

1.Hung Ga
2.Wing Chun
3.Bak Mei
4.Muay Thai
5.Karate
6.Eagle Claw
7.Xing Yi Quan


Etc Etc...Its up to you to make your art work...

I agree with one Sifu who said the one who wins fight boils down to has more skill. He also said if you both have an equal level than who ever is stronger will win. Be it in Martial Arts or Steet fighting. See on the street you use what ever works. You use stuff from your child hood, from movies, from slap boxing, from messing around with your friends. When I was a kid before Wing Chun we use to used wrestling and boxing. Some of stuff we learn from each other other stuff we learn from practicing after watching it on Television and other stuff we learn from our parents. Now if you have a group of people who always spar and practice wrestling and boxing and take downs and submissions or what not. That kid will be a pretty well rounded fighter. But the issue is some guy on street with alot of Street fighting history may be on the same skill level as many Martial Artist. May be more than Some MA's it depends on much you practice,spar and fight with your art. So it is true you can get your **** handed to you by a street fighter if you practice your art like once a year and spar once every five years.

As for my friends. We each got our days. I would attack them sometimes with out warning. But there was one guy who didn't practice Wing Chun...He was really strong and muscular he was a wrestler. He would often try to hit me full strength but I was so use to getting hit very hard in the body that his blows didn't hurt that much. Besides He might only land two or three hits out of hundred because of his stuff I block,deflect,parry or redirected. He hated that. So thats why he would try so hard to hit me. I didn't know many days he was so serious until my Wing Chun Sidai told me one day that the other fellow be for real trying to hurt me and would get angry when he couldn't...But he was more my Sidai friend than mines.

But thats something boys would do!

Damn, sounds like lausy friends to me. Where you sparring or did the want to kick the living **** out of you everytime they saw you? Well I would like to answer to your post like this: people argue that WC is more effective than this and that and that Krav Maga can do some serious deamage to most styles but where I live the most feared street fighter who sopposedly never lost, most people are affraid of him and has been in numerous fights is not a WCer and a KM guy neither is a he MT or a Pekita Tirsia Kali guy but hes a Kickboxer. Now you people can interpret this the way you like, but what I want to say with it is that when it comes down to fighting and who wins a style is just one of MANY factors which decide who wins.