Comparing WC with russian Systema

Eru Il繙vatar

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Hey people! I would love to hear some opinions about similaritys between this to styles. Especialy from people who have experience in both(even if the hate wc or think it useless or something :D)!

I think they are very similar(havent trained Systema just watched dvds) if you look at it good enough!

One major diffrence I see is that in WC we are thought to react according in THE most efficient, practical(you know the principals..) way according to diffrent WC schools respectively. Anything else is not quite WC or is considered you need more training or could have done better... Now thats how I understand the philosophy of most WC teachers and practitoners.

Systema on the other side emphasises reacting instinctively and naturaly more. Thus it's harder being wrong according to the systema mong other things :) For a lack of a better term it more of a JeetKuneDo-ish WC. JKDish in the sense of the Tao of Jeet Kune Do not as any particular "style" of JKD. Again this is my point of view! Feel free to correct me!

I would like to welcom the Systema people from their side of the forum to the discusion! Please share opinions!

P.S. You have Kadochnikov's Systema and Ryabko's Systema. In my opinion both are great but just to show you what it is heres a taste of Kadochnikov's systema by him himself:

(part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceZhgo5uia0&feature=related (part 2)
 
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Nolerama

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I have to ask: Why the comparison?

If you like both arts, train in both arts. See what works and what doesn't.
 
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Eru Il繙vatar

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I have to ask: Why the comparison?

If you like both arts, train in both arts. See what works and what doesn't.

Good question... I don't know, curiosity I guess... I don't know nothing about Systema accept from dvds and videos.

And I can't train in systema cuz the nearest one is a country away.

But thanks for the useful post! :D
 

Xue Sheng

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There are similarities between lots of arts

I see similarities between Systema Breathing, movement and Taijiquan.

But for me personally I would rather just learn more about Systema from what Systema is than by comparison. I have found comparisons of styles tends to lead to one jumping to conclusions based on prior knowledge or training and from that one can miss the point... it happened with me and systema actually after reading the book Let Every Breath... Secrets of the Russian Breath Masters and watching the video. Once I got past my prior training, assumptions and arrogance there were a few things that became much more clear that were surprisingly similar to what I know but just a bit different and rather impressive.

Actually it left me rather impressed with Systema.
 
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Eru Il繙vatar

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There are similarities between lots of arts

I see similarities between Systema Breathing, movement and Taijiquan.

Thats very true! Unfotunately few are able to admit it for varius reasons..

But for me personally I would rather just learn more about Systema from what Systema is than by comparison. I have found comparisons of styles tends to lead to one jumping to conclusions based on prior knowledge or training and from that one can miss the point...

Yea I realise that I just didn't want to get banned for posting a Systema topic on a WC forum :) Neither did I want to go to the Russian martial arts forum and post a thread: tell me everything you know! so I did this.

Actually it left me rather impressed with Systema.

Yea, same here, looks like a great art!
 

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Greetings.

Systema is very good training method, since it consists of evolving drills and subtle control of the body.

If you develop the stability and explosiveness of Wing Chun, then make the movements more fluid, you get the way Systema is executed.

I've gotten a lot out of it. Unfortunately, not all Systema instructors are made the same. Nor is there a codified method of transferring it... there are many details that are missed by students and teachers that can only be extracted from the top people by feeling what they do and seeing them in action.

The interesting thing is that while some things might look contradictory to Wing Chun training, it is actually complimentary.

There is a lot more, so if you have specific questions, feel free to ask.

Juan M. Mercado
 

Si-Je

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That's what I was kinda thinking, professormental. I thought the two arts would be very complementary, judging by appearance of course, since I've never had a chance to train in systema.
I am very curious about the art, and would love to know more about it. Especially the way the handle weapons defenses. It seems they take sensitivity to a whole 'nuther level with the knife defenses I've seen online.
Almost like you couldn't stab a systema practitioner even if the blade was touching their skin because of their use of sensitivity.
Very cool. I'll have to see if I can find a video on that again.
 

Si-Je

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What are the core principals to Systema?

I don't know. It seems from the videos, relaxation and natural body movement and response in fighting. But, I'm sure that only scratches the surface.
 

Yoshiyahu

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Does anyone know about the Core Principals?

Has anyone seen Pai Mei Gung Fu. It is very similiar to Wing Chun...what do you think about it?

Would it be a cool mesh?


I don't know. It seems from the videos, relaxation and natural body movement and response in fighting. But, I'm sure that only scratches the surface.
 
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dungeonworks

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"Systema" is a generic term just as "Kung Fu". There may be similarities with certain brands of Systema and Wing Chun, but there is no core curriculum, principles, or any relation whatsoever between one Systema and another unless they are originated from the same lineage (for lack of better work).

Most likely, TS is reffering to "Ryabko's Systema".
 
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Eru Il繙vatar

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Greetings.

Systema is very good training method, since it consists of evolving drills and subtle control of the body.

If you develop the stability and explosiveness of Wing Chun, then make the movements more fluid, you get the way Systema is executed.

I've gotten a lot out of it. Unfortunately, not all Systema instructors are made the same. Nor is there a codified method of transferring it... there are many details that are missed by students and teachers that can only be extracted from the top people by feeling what they do and seeing them in action.

The interesting thing is that while some things might look contradictory to Wing Chun training, it is actually complimentary.

There is a lot more, so if you have specific questions, feel free to ask.

Juan M. Mercado

Hey Profesor! Yea I've gotten the same feeling that it would be very complemantary. Would love an opetunity to train it/train with someone who has experinece in it! About specific questions... I don't know what to ask realy becouse I know so little about it to formulate meaningful questions upon that knowledge. But I know your very experienced and knowledgable from your other posts so I would be grateful for as much input on Systema that your time can spare!

That's what I was kinda thinking, professormental. I thought the two arts would be very complementary, judging by appearance of course, since I've never had a chance to train in systema.
I am very curious about the art, and would love to know more about it. Especially the way the handle weapons defenses. It seems they take sensitivity to a whole 'nuther level with the knife defenses I've seen online.
Almost like you couldn't stab a systema practitioner even if the blade was touching their skin because of their use of sensitivity.
Very cool. I'll have to see if I can find a video on that again.

Yea, what they do against knife attacks is truly amazing.. To me it looks like they do Chi Sao with there bare hands against an armed assailant! And the attacker can't get to them. I've seen Vladimir Vasiliev from Rybakovs Systema do that. I know theres been a thread opened here a while ago about knife attackes; to all interested I would strongly sudgest getting Vladimirs dvd on knife attacks.. Acctualy while getting it get yourself the one on improvised weapons and unarmed combat.. Well pretty much everything they do is quite amazing to me. Tho I feel that if in a knife confrontation your first technique should be running what they do looks like it could actualy work in a real life situation. I don't know about the rules on the forum so I would like to ask the moderators if it's ok to post it but I got an article some time ago about an american cop who was confident about his martial arts and went against a criminal who had a knife with his bare hands, putting away his pistol as he felt like he can control the situation without killing anybody... The pictures with that article are pretty gory... They show what happened to the cop becouse of it. He had countles wounds more then 5centimeter deep all over hes body. I think it would be very useful to see for those martial artist who are absolutely confident they could defend themself in a hypothetical situation against an armed attacker...

"Systema" is a generic term just as "Kung Fu". There may be similarities with certain brands of Systema and Wing Chun, but there is no core curriculum, principles, or any relation whatsoever between one Systema and another unless they are originated from the same lineage (for lack of better work).

Most likely, TS is reffering to "Ryabko's Systema".

Yea, thanks for mentioning that! Em, I'm the ts right? :) If so I've seen more of Rybakos systema then of Kadochnikovs one. But even though there are many slight diffrences about there approach(and also origin, history ofcourse) I feel both are great arts with similar approaches then in WC. I would like to discus both.

I'm interested in everything about it but to get people started; how did it work for you in real fights? Can you compare it to WC? How long does an average bloke take to get proficient in it? What are some of your training methods? How does that thing with punch absorbing work??? And that thing with punches that can make you crap, sick, pass out, happy or whatever?:D
 

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http://www.russianmartialart.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systema

http://www.systemaspetsnaz.com/

Also talk to Brian

Systema to me is doing something that very few MAs do today and that is trying to prepare you for a multiple of possibilities for when and "where" you may need to defend yourself in all types of conditions with as little effort as possible and as relaxed as possible. I have a chart at home that if Brian does not see this I will try and post that goes over what Systema is trying to accomplish. Not all MA situations will occur on perfectly flat ground in an air conditioned and or heated area.
 
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Eru Il繙vatar

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Not all MA situations will occur on perfectly flat ground in an air conditioned and or heated area.

Yea, thats one of the reasons I respect Systema a lot. Cuz few martial arts realise that and thus unintentionaly lower their efficiency.

Who's Brian? Where can I find him?

with as little effort as possible and as relaxed as possible

Hey guys, doesn't that remind you of what WC realy is at it's core adding that a WChunner would also stress the importance of doing all that in the shortest amount of time, doing the biggest amount of deamege possible? If you'd added that Xue, you would have quated my WC instructures most favorite saying :) And even tho you didn't mention it Systema seems to strive towards just that.

And another question. Looks like this Rybakovs systema is more mainstream and also thought in America and Evrope but what about this Kadochnikovs stuff? Is that only abailable in Russia? Anybody has any experience with his systema?
 

Xue Sheng

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Eru Il繳vatar;1100670 said:
Hey guys, doesn't that remind you of what WC realy is at it's core adding that a WChunner would also stress the importance of doing all that in the shortest amount of time, doing the biggest amount of deamege possible? If you'd added that Xue, you would have quated my WC instructures most favorite saying :) And even tho you didn't mention it Systema seems to strive towards just that.

That is actually pretty much a Chinese Martial Arts thing.
 
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Eru Il繙vatar

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That is actually pretty much a Chinese Martial Arts thing.

Really? Didn't know that.. Funny how so many diffrent styles come from the same principals, aint it?
 

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What are the core principals to Systema?

I would guess the "core principles" are what they call "The 4 Pillars", which are ;
1. Breathing - to maintain consistent breathing during movements.
2. Relaxation - to maintain a relaxed state throughout the movement.
3. Movement - maintaining consistent, flowing movement (breathing & relaxing helps to accomplish this)
4. Form - maintaining the form by trying to keep as straight a spine as possible throughout the movement. When the opponents spine bends or twists, it's easier to break their structure.
Hope this helps.

Franco
 
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Eru Il繙vatar

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I would guess the "core principles" are what they call "The 4 Pillars", which are ;
1. Breathing - to maintain consistent breathing during movements.
2. Relaxation - to maintain a relaxed state throughout the movement.
3. Movement - maintaining consistent, flowing movement (breathing & relaxing helps to accomplish this)
4. Form - maintaining the form by trying to keep as straight a spine as possible throughout the movement. When the opponents spine bends or twists, it's easier to break their structure.
Hope this helps.

Franco

Beutiful! Thanks! I must admit that one of the reasons I created this topic was to make a point to the WC communitiy that there are things to be learned from other arts and that there are diffrent ways to accomplish same things but not neceseraly by conflicting with the core principals of WC or making that other approach neceseraly less effective. And if you watched the videos and read what this people had to say about principals I think you can see that a bit. Becouse in my experience WC ppl are usualy so into the whole effectivnes of WC in theory that they forget that its all give and take. To make a few lame examples; you give stability you take mobility, faster linear and slower circular, linear shorter path thus weaker(tho we kind of negate that in WC with body structure) circular longer path stronger.F=ma.

Ok, I'm getting sleepy and forgot what else I wanted to say :)

Thanks for all the useful posts!
 

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So do you guys see any benefits to a Wing Chun guy staying with his System alone and expanded and learning more from it with out taking and adding parts of other arts?

Do you think A wing Chun guy would benefit more by adding practices and principals from other Existing systems and creating a Kung Fu soup?


Or do you feel both are equal. An either party will come out even?


Eru Il繳vatar;1100827 said:
Beutiful! Thanks! I must admit that one of the reasons I created this topic was to make a point to the WC communitiy that there are things to be learned from other arts and that there are diffrent ways to accomplish same things but not neceseraly by conflicting with the core principals of WC or making that other approach neceseraly less effective. And if you watched the videos and read what this people had to say about principals I think you can see that a bit. Becouse in my experience WC ppl are usualy so into the whole effectivnes of WC in theory that they forget that its all give and take. To make a few lame examples; you give stability you take mobility, faster linear and slower circular, linear shorter path thus weaker(tho we kind of negate that in WC with body structure) circular longer path stronger.F=ma.

Ok, I'm getting sleepy and forgot what else I wanted to say :)

Thanks for all the useful posts!
 
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Eru Il繙vatar

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So do you guys see any benefits to a Wing Chun guy staying with his System alone and expanded and learning more from it with out taking and adding parts of other arts?

Do you think A wing Chun guy would benefit more by adding practices and principals from other Existing systems and creating a Kung Fu soup?


Or do you feel both are equal. An either party will come out even?

I think WC is a great art. I also think that any art that specialises at any field and has existed over a longer period of time has more or less perfected what they want to do. For example: I think that boxing is pretty much the best form of fighting when only fists are allowed and when you have 10ounch gloves on your hand, I also belive that an kicking art such as Tea Kwon Do has pretty much done the best it can with leg attacks and perfecting the art of kicking(you can't do much more with a leg), I also belive that an art like Aikido(which I havent trained) which I understand as an art that wants to control an opponent more than hurt him(allthough my brother who trains it tells me it very similar and WC and also has very vicious attacks so who knows) has pretty much perfect the art of controling an opponent. WC for example I belive strives to find the perfect balance(between power and speed, balance mobility, defence and offense). I would say that most arts that specialise in what they do for an extended period of time have something useful to say but it's just diffrent aproaches to the same thing in the end.

I'm saying all this becouse a lot of people WC feel that an Aikido approach to fighting is wrong or not as efficient as WC approach. Or similar with other arts. But I think that any art that specialises has something useful to contribute. If your a WC guy like me and you want to complement you groundfighting, go train in BJJ or something and if you grasped the concepts of WC and understand them it shouldnt be to difficult to modify those few sport/control/not WC aspects to your WC game.

So as a conlusion I would say that even tho WC principals are great, a human lifespan is to sort for you to figure out every aspect of fighting by yourself. So other arts can help. A lot in my opinion. As other have said: in the very worst you know what to suspect from you attacker from that style. Now if your style allready has the best answers to everything then great! Don't train anything else. But I think if you truly belive that your misguided becouse nothing a man creates is ideal or absolute so we can allways lear new things.
 

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