What does your WC/WT/VT sparring look like?

[KPM]

Putting on the gloves and having a "go" is very valuable. If you aren't wearing protective gear and you are training with a colleague in a "friendly" situation, 9 times out of 10 they just aren't going to be trying to really hit you. So its not as "realistic" as you think! That's just human nature. But put on boxing gloves and maybe headgear and all bets are off! Subconsciously people just take this as "permission" to really hit you! So if you never put on any kind of protective gear but think you are getting the benefits of actually sparring, I think you are deluding yourself. You can Chi Sau/Gor Sau/Lat Sau all you want, but it is still not the same thing as a determined opponent truly making an effort to hit you, and hit you hard!

Complicated Chi Sau/Lat Sau "tricks" typically are not going to work in the real world. What is going to work are the basics. This includes how to send and receive force, how to keep your center and your balance, how to control distance, and how to use your basic defenses like Pak, Tan, Bong, etc. Multiple step Chi Sau combinations are not in that realm. Putting on boxing gloves certainly limits your ability to do those complicated Chi Sau tricks. But they do NOT limit your ability to do any of the other things I mentioned. The benefits of putting on gloves and training against someone that is truly trying to hit you far out-weigh any negative aspects. If you don't see that, its likely because you have never truly tried it.

But absolutely you need to spar against people other than your fellow Wing Chun players. Sparring with someone "pretending" to be a boxer is nothing like sparring against someone that actually is a decent boxer and knows how to land hits on people from multiple angles! Finding people like this to train with is sometimes not easy. But its worth the effort even if you only get to do it infrequently. It will really open your eyes.

Does this translate over to the "street"? Hell yeah!!!! Do you think a determined thug is just going to drop to the pavement with your first punch or turn and run away? Don't count on it! Do you think you are so good you can close with someone and they would never have the opportunity to back away and create distance between you? Maybe you are! But don't count on it! The ability to "close the gap" is very important. This is exactly what you are doing in the "back and forth nonsense" of sparring.

I think its pretty simple really. Typically the people that say they don't see value in sparring are the people that never spar and have never really even tried to on any kind of serious level. And people that say you can't spar with Wing Chun just prove this, because you can! ;-)

 

[drop bear]

Why couldn't you chi sau, spar or kung fu with mma style or mma sparring style gloves. Would they really get in the way that badly?

I mean if you want to hit each other with some sort of protection.

 

[Danny T]

Why couldn't you chi sau, spar or kung fu with mma style or mma sparring style gloves. Would they really get in the way that badly?

I mean if you want to hit each other with some sort of protection.

We do it often. Does it restrict somethings... Yes. Makes it much easier to trap the hand (and to get your hand trapped) when in close. Many aspects of wing chun actions can be performed with open finger/palm gloves. Just don't get caught up in sparring like one does in a competition match like mma or boxing.

 

[KPM]

 

[drop bear]

We do it often. Does it restrict somethings... Yes. Makes it much easier to trap the hand (and to get your hand trapped) when in close. Many aspects of wing chun actions can be performed with open finger/palm gloves. Just don't get caught up in sparring like one does in a competition match like mma or boxing.

Because I can see how boxing gloves would be a pain. But unless you are really wailing on someone. You don't need them.

 

[KPM]

Because I can see how boxing gloves would be a pain. But unless you are really wailing on someone. You don't need them.

Try it. They aren't as much of a pain as you assume! And I'll ask you....would you rather take a solid shot to the face with a 16 oz boxing glove, or a 8 oz MMA glove? Likewise, would you be really willing to smack your friend in the face with a 8 oz MMA glove....or a 16 oz boxing glove? I'll say again that unless your partner/opponent is really serious about trying to hit you solidly in the head, your training is not nearly as realistic as it could be!

Even professional MMA fighters do not train exclusively with MMA gloves. They use large boxing gloves regularly in training. There is a reason for that! ;-)

 

[PiedmontChun]

You can Chi Sau/Gor Sau/Lat Sau all you want, but it is still not the same thing as a determined opponent truly making an effort to hit you, and hit you hard!

Complicated Chi Sau/Lat Sau "tricks" typically are not going to work in the real world. What is going to work are the basics. This includes how to send and receive force, how to keep your center and your balance, how to control distance, and how to use your basic defenses like Pak, Tan, Bong, etc. Multiple step Chi Sau combinations are not in that realm. Putting on boxing gloves certainly limits your ability to do those complicated Chi Sau tricks. But they do NOT limit your ability to do any of the other things I mentioned. The benefits of putting on gloves and training against someone that is truly trying to hit you far out-weigh any negative aspects. If you don't see that, its likely because you have never truly tried it.

But absolutely you need to spar against people other than your fellow Wing Chun players. Sparring with someone "pretending" to be a boxer is nothing like sparring against someone that actually is a decent boxer and knows how to land hits on people from multiple angles! Finding people like this to train with is sometimes not easy. But its worth the effort even if you only get to do it infrequently. It will really open your eyes.

Does this translate over to the "street"? Hell yeah!!!! Do you think a determined thug is just going to drop to the pavement with your first punch or turn and run away? Don't count on it! Do you think you are so good you can close with someone and they would never have the opportunity to back away and create distance between you? Maybe you are! But don't count on it! The ability to "close the gap" is very important. This is exactly what you are doing in the "back and forth nonsense" of sparring.

I think its pretty simple really. Typically the people that say they don't see value in sparring are the people that never spar and have never really even tried to on any kind of serious level. And people that say you can't spar with Wing Chun just prove this, because you can! ;-)

Is that really what chi-sau is though? Learning complicated multi step combinations? Just like a karateka is not going to use kata step for step in a fight, it seems off point to think chi-sau sections exist to be used verbatim in a fight. Aren't the indivudual responses / reflexes whats being trained, and the order or sequence just a way of transmitting information? If I give an opening, my training partner has often employed a movement or trap in free chi-sau that I don't recognize or know how to counter effectively, leading me to ask "what the heck was that?". Clearly he has tools in his tool box that I don;t, and he's able to use those movements instinctively without being a slave to the sequence / format in which it is taught.

As far as sparring others, I see your point. Some of our guys have some Karate, Muay Thai, Krav, and boxing backgrounds..... but we aren't highly skilled in other systems, just using what we have to work with within our own school. Not a lot of other area schools open their doors to "fight nights" or anything like that anymore, though its happened in the past. Me personally, I have a Krav Maga friend, we plan on getting together to have a friendly spar / exchange, which my sifu has said essentially "go for it" to opportunities like that.

 

[Danny T]

As far as sparring others, I see your point. Some of our guys have some Karate, Muay Thai, Krav, and boxing backgrounds..... but we aren't highly skilled in other systems, just using what we have to work with within our own school. Not a lot of other area schools open their doors to "fight nights" or anything like that anymore, though its happened in the past. Me personally, I have a Krav Maga friend, we plan on getting together to have a friendly spar / exchange, which my sifu has said essentially "go for it" to opportunities like that.

Most gyms/schools that have a mma or fighter program have open sparring times. At least in my area they do. Check with them for some good sparring time. Speak with them and whom you spar with about making it more about defending an attack from different ranges vs moving around as in a cage/ring. Ask if they would do some multiple opponent attacks.

 

[Vajramusti]

Most gyms/schools that have a mma or fighter program have open sparring times. At least in my area they do. Check with them for some good sparring time. Speak with them and whom you spar with about making it more about defending an attack from different ranges vs moving around as in a cage/ring. Ask if they would do some multiple opponent attacks.

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Just responding not arguing. When I was young, I boxed. Then when I began wing chun I put sport behind and began to learn wing chun in earnest. Occasionally I would wear gloves to show the enhanced short power of wing chun. But basically since have been exposed to very good Ip Man wing chun, I don't need to import boxing, ju jutsu etc.In a sustained good wing chun path you continue to grow.
Sometimes on this thread there is not enough appreciation of the importance of chi sao which should be done right and corrected from time to time. The forms and chi sao complement each other- you cant have one without the other.
Of course wing chun is not the only way.

 

[Vajramusti]

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Just responding not arguing. When I was young, I boxed. Then when I began wing chun I put sport behind and began to learn wing chun in earnest. Occasionally I would wear gloves to show the enhanced short power of wing chun. But basically since have been exposed to very good Ip Man wing chun, I don't need to import boxing, ju jutsu etc.In a sustained good wing chun path you continue to grow.
Sometimes on this thread there is not enough appreciation of the importance of chi sao which should be done right and corrected from time to time. The forms and chi sao complement each other- you cant have one without the other.
Of course wing chun is not the only way.

PS- regarding "realism": if you know how to "control" your motions (an internal aspect) you can hit your partner as hard as is warranted.

 

[KPM]

I don't need to import boxing, ju jutsu etc.In a sustained good wing chun path you continue to grow.

---Nobody said anything about importing boxing into their Wing Chun, just wearing boxing gloves.

PS- regarding "realism": if you know how to "control" your motions (an internal aspect) you can hit your partner as hard as is warranted.

---Just knowing that your partner is going to be controlling or pulling his punches to spare you takes out a lot of the realism.

 

[drop bear]

PS- regarding "realism": if you know how to "control" your motions (an internal aspect) you can hit your partner as hard as is warranted.

You should be able to do that anyway. I hate working with one speed guys.

 

[drop bear]

I don't need to import boxing, ju jutsu etc.In a sustained good wing chun path you continue to grow.

---Nobody said anything about importing boxing into their Wing Chun, just wearing boxing gloves.

PS- regarding "realism": if you know how to "control" your motions (an internal aspect) you can hit your partner as hard as is warranted.

---Just knowing that your partner is going to be controlling or pulling his punches to spare you takes out a lot of the realism.

In your video they are boxing though. They might be using wing chun but those concepts are also boxing concepts.

 

[Drose427]

Most gyms/schools that have a mma or fighter program have open sparring times. At least in my area they do. Check with them for some good sparring time. Speak with them and whom you spar with about making it more about defending an attack from different ranges vs moving around as in a cage/ring. Ask if they would do some multiple opponent attacks.

This is why "Gym-Schools" are my favorite types of schools.

You can accomplish all sides, teach high discipline Strong Tradition TMA's from 2-5 and from 5-9 Work with MMA guys

Its also easier on the students to step outside their comfort zone.

In your video they are boxing though. They might be using wing chun but those concepts are also boxing concepts.

Well Wing Chun is commonly considered Chinese boxing.

and in the note of concepts, nearly all martial arts have a few similar concepts

 

[drop bear]

Speaking of getting all kung fu with the boxing.

We were learning upper cut hook the arm, drag it, overhand right.

 

[KPM]

In your video they are boxing though. They might be using wing chun but those concepts are also boxing concepts.

The key word here is "also." Its still Wing Chun. Alan hasn't "imported boxing" into his Wing Chun as Joy said.

 

[Vajramusti]

The key word here is "also." Its still Wing Chun. Alan hasn't "imported boxing" into his Wing Chun as Joy said.

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Sigh. I did not mention Alan at all.

 

[JPinAZ]

I've used both types of gloves in WC sparring and boxing gloves are far too limiting and tend to limit your response to more what is seen in Alan's videos. It works great for him, but I think our ideas of WC are quite a bit different and I don't find boxing gloves are the best avenue for applying WC as they force you to have to 'box' more than I prefer.

Plus, I've had no problem at all using decent, open-palm 8 ounce gloves with 2 inch padding at the knuckles which gives almost the same protection as boxing gloves, but without the added bulk. You're still also able to use your palm/grip/wrist much easier than with the bulkier boxing gloves and you can still deliver as much or as little power as needed safely (but I would never encourage use the small comp 4 OZ MMA gloves of anything other than light contact sparring - too little protection and too easy to cut with)

Also, I strongly disagree with Keith's generalization of what 'chi sau' is (being about complicated "tricks"). In my experience, it is a lot more than that, but can see why he might feel this way after experiencing other school's WC methods and approaches to chi sau. Again, different understandings of WC

 

[KPM]

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Sigh. I did not mention Alan at all.

Sorry. Didn't mean it that way at all. I meant "Joy said...importing boxing into Wing Chun." General statement. Not specific to Alan. Just pointing out that Alan isn't doing this.

 

[KPM]

Also, I strongly disagree with Keith's generalization of what 'chi sau' is (being about complicated "tricks"). In my experience, it is a lot more than that, but can see why he might feel this way after experiencing other school's WC methods and approaches to chi sau. Again, different understandings of WC

It wasn't meant as a generalization for all of Chi Sau. I was referring to the complicated pre-set multi-step techniques that some groups have as a "Lat Sau" program in their Chi Sau curriculum.