What does your WC/WT/VT sparring look like?

[PiedmontChun]

It seems like this forum has slowed recently. I think with some of the heated debate that comes from differing opinions, or even trolls coming from outside the Wing Chun community here to instigate or criticize has been a factor in that perhaps, though there are some still willing to post videos or discuss their own WC openly.
I ask the question "what does your sparring look like?" not to ruffle feathers or turn around and say "well this is what mine looks like". I'm genuinely curious to hear from people who have trained a long time, and as a pretty junior student myself, willing to describe my own.
Are you an instructor / student in a school or teach / learn WC more informally like in a small backyard club (or similar)?
What percentage of training is devoted to sparring?
What format does your school use? Timed rounds? Dividing by skill level or sparring across all student levels? Multiple attackers?
Half speed and half power? Full speed and half power? Full contact but with some kind of pads or sparring gear? Gloves used?
Is there critique or correction that comes as a result of sparring?

In my own experience, my school does sparring maybe the last 1/4 of class during the week's formal classes. There is usually no sparring during smaller private classes or the open format classes where people come and decide what they want to work on; thats more chi-sau, drills, etc. As a result, I am lucky to spar 1-2 times a week though theoretically it could be more, just with my schedule.
We do timed rounds, maybe 1 minute before rotating spartners. One person is WC, the other person can feed whatever attacks they want- boxing, haymakers, grabs, tackles, etc to the best of their ability. We start just outside kicking range, obviously different from where all our chi-sau and most drills begin. Its always been emphasized to close that gap the moment the opponent gets close enough for contact, send out hands before feet, attack, create constant pressure. We do use gloves and try to punch the chest and areas other than the face, or use control (such as not dissipating force completely) but strikes to the head still happen. Some of the more advanced students transition quickly into neck grabs, sweeps if the attacker is open for it, and might stop and "reset" to continue sparring for what time is remaining before switching.
After we have cycled thru, we sometimes do multiple attackers, 2 or 3 on 1. At this point it becomes more about footwork and movement to not get trapped, more displacing an opponent using footwork, lop sau, using one person to disrupt another's attack or as a shield. My class is all ages and sizes, and some females, so we arent all young athletic males either just to point that out. I'm not sure I can comment on any gaps or weaknesses in what we do, sparring in general was new to me when I started there and am still learning to be comfortable with punches flying at me and I try to make the most of that training time by relaxing, paying attention to my structure, but reacting versus thinking in terms of using specific movements.

So pardon the long post, but hopefully it can spur a good discussion on what others do and insight they have picked up over time for whoever is game.

 

[Vajramusti]

It seems like this forum has slowed recently. I think with some of the heated debate that comes from differing opinions, or even trolls coming from outside the Wing Chun community here to instigate or criticize has been a factor in that perhaps, though there are some still willing to post videos or discuss their own WC openly.
I ask the question "what does your sparring look like?" not to ruffle feathers or turn around and say "well this is what mine looks like". I'm genuinely curious to hear from people who have trained a long time, and as a pretty junior student myself, willing to describe my own.
Are you an instructor / student in a school or teach / learn WC more informally like in a small backyard club (or similar)?
What percentage of training is devoted to sparring?
What format does your school use? Timed rounds? Dividing by skill level or sparring across all student levels? Multiple attackers?
Half speed and half power? Full speed and half power? Full contact but with some kind of pads or sparring gear? Gloves used?
Is there critique or correction that comes as a result of sparring?

In my own experience, my school does sparring maybe the last 1/4 of class during the week's formal classes. There is usually no sparring during smaller private classes or the open format classes where people come and decide what they want to work on; thats more chi-sau, drills, etc. As a result, I am lucky to spar 1-2 times a week though theoretically it could be more, just with my schedule.
We do timed rounds, maybe 1 minute before rotating spartners. One person is WC, the other person can feed whatever attacks they want- boxing, haymakers, grabs, tackles, etc to the best of their ability. We start just outside kicking range, obviously different from where all our chi-sau and most drills begin. Its always been emphasized to close that gap the moment the opponent gets close enough for contact, send out hands before feet, attack, create constant pressure. We do use gloves and try to punch the chest and areas other than the face, or use control (such as not dissipating force completely) but strikes to the head still happen. Some of the more advanced students transition quickly into neck grabs, sweeps if the attacker is open for it, and might stop and "reset" to continue sparring for what time is remaining before switching.
After we have cycled thru, we sometimes do multiple attackers, 2 or 3 on 1. At this point it becomes more about footwork and movement to not get trapped, more displacing an opponent using footwork, lop sau, using one person to disrupt another's attack or as a shield. My class is all ages and sizes, and some females, so we arent all young athletic males either just to point that out. I'm not sure I can comment on any gaps or weaknesses in what we do, sparring in general was new to me when I started there and am still learning to be comfortable with punches flying at me and I try to make the most of that training time by relaxing, paying attention to my structure, but reacting versus thinking in terms of using specific movements.

So pardon the long post, but hopefully it can spur a good discussion on what others do and insight they have picked up over time for whoever is game.

 

[Vajramusti]

Sparring with gloves- boxing style-imo is not necessary for wing chun development. I know how to spar and sometimes do- but for my wing chun development including timing, distance etc--- various forms of chi sao, gor sao, man sao, lat sao, lop sao with footwork- is a good way to go
in training.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I should actually clarify; our teacher refers to what we do as 'lat sau', not technically sparring.

 

[zuti car]

Fighting is like swimming or riding a bicycle , you can't learn it if you don't actually do it . Sparring is important it should be at least 1\3 of the training

 

[Jake104]

Getting used to being hit is an important part of training. Unless you train in a traditional martial art or you're a super hero and think you can block everything that comes at you.

 

[Kwan Sau]

We train as most WC does...however, everything we do, drills, etc we hit/strike/punch/palm/kick/knee/elbow etc our training partners. This is as much for their benefit as ours. We are not out to destroy our training / kwoon partners...but each time our attack physically connects (ie. strikes/hits) their intended target, that gets "filed away" in the brain. We always offer a significant threat to our training partners. If you don't do this, you are cheating yourself and your training partner.
Now, "sparring" as in the typical "back and forth" nonsense...no, I don't do that, nor advocate that for wing chun practitioners. It ingrains poor habits. Timed rounds, same thing...
Randomness = yes. Multiple opponents = yes. RBT scenarios = yes. Tactical awareness drills = yes.
Back and forth, hopping around, in and out of range, with a timer on the wall and big gloves on = no. Divided by skill levels or weight classes = nope. Not going to happen in the back alley. Barefoot with a fancy uniform? Nope. Street clothes. Cups or groin protection = nope. Not in real life so not in the kwoon.
Intense training partners/methodologies/scenarios with significant threat to the WC persons safety is how / what I advocate.
This includes everything from the feet (how/where to place horse/feet etc) to the eyes (how / where to "gaze" when one on one and multiple opponents).
"Sparring"....yep, did that for many years ago. You are what you train.
"Fighting Drills"...yep. Typically only lasting seconds, not 1-3 minute rounds.
Barehanded or armed, hands and/or feet, standup or grappling attempts, all good to go.
Just my humble input Gents..
Great topic Piedmont!!!

 

[Kwan Sau]

Getting used to being hit is an important part of training.

A B S O L U T E L Y!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Vajramusti]

I should actually clarify; our teacher refers to what we do as 'lat sau', not technically sparring.

 

[Jake104]

My first WC Sifu would make us sit in our yee gee kim yeung ma and slap each other in the face. Or we would punch lightly in face and chest and practice deflecting/ going with the energy of the hit. He explained it kind of like this. Pain is one of the best deterrents in a fight. It demoralizes the opponent and it will take the fight out of him real quick. Most people aren't used to being hit and IMMEDIATELY quit once they get rocked once. I have always trained in realistic manner. I can take a hit. Matter fact the more pain I feel the more I want to inflict. So for somebody like me it needs to be lights out, otherwise I keep coming. On a side note, It's only been lights out once for me . It was a sucker punch and lights went out for a moment.

 

[Vajramusti]

I should actually clarify; our teacher refers to what we do as 'lat sau', not technically sparring.

Lat sau is free hand- clikely to be different from WT lat sau. Move away- re-enter etc. People do get hit- but for development we control the motions.

 

[Jake104]

So yes sparring is good! With boxing gloves, MMA gloves, pads, no pads, light, medium or full contact. It's all important and a great tool in all martial arts. If you intend to use that art in a martial way of course.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Back and forth, hopping around, in and out of range, with a timer on the wall and big gloves on = no. Divided by skill levels or weight classes = nope. Not going to happen in the back alley. Barefoot with a fancy uniform? Nope. Street clothes. Cups or groin protection = nope. Not in real life so not in the kwoon.
QUOTE]
We might "reset" back to starting point but theres no moving in and out of range or just trying to "tag each other" I get the sense that some MA schools do that type of sparring but out sifi likes to see tenacity and follow thru, not sizing someone up and trading blows.
I do use light gloves that leave the thumb exposed, some of my fellow students use mma type gloves with fingers and thumb exposed. No heavy boxing gloves. We at least have more dexterity to grab / lop, even use the edge of palm to strike or the palm itself to pak, etc. Its obviously more cumbersome than bare-handed but it does feel like sort of a necessary evil so no one gets a busted lip or broken nose.

 

[Jake104]

We train as most WC does...however, everything we do, drills, etc we hit/strike/punch/palm/kick/knee/elbow etc our training partners. This is as much for their benefit as ours. We are not out to destroy our training / kwoon partners...but each time our attack physically connects (ie. strikes/hits) their intended target, that gets "filed away" in the brain. We always offer a significant threat to our training partners. If you don't do this, you are cheating yourself and your training partner.
Now, "sparring" as in the typical "back and forth" nonsense...no, I don't do that, nor advocate that for wing chun practitioners. It ingrains poor habits. Timed rounds, same thing...
Randomness = yes. Multiple opponents = yes. RBT scenarios = yes. Tactical awareness drills = yes.
Back and forth, hopping around, in and out of range, with a timer on the wall and big gloves on = no. Divided by skill levels or weight classes = nope. Not going to happen in the back alley. Barefoot with a fancy uniform? Nope. Street clothes. Cups or groin protection = nope. Not in real life so not in the kwoon.
Intense training partners/methodologies/scenarios with significant threat to the WC persons safety is how / what I advocate.
This includes everything from the feet (how/where to place horse/feet etc) to the eyes (how / where to "gaze" when one on one and multiple opponents).
"Sparring"....yep, did that for many years ago. You are what you train.
"Fighting Drills"...yep. Typically only lasting seconds, not 1-3 minute rounds.
Barehanded or armed, hands and/or feet, standup or grappling attempts, all good to go.
Just my humble input Gents..
Great topic Piedmont!!!

The back and forth nonsense is usually what I see when WC gets owned in videos. They fall into that trap and I think we can ALL agree that the art was not design for that type of sport style of fighting. Now sometimes retreating is necessary but, with a forward/ returning intent.

Personally, I've went hard in a sparring session. My opponent came in really hard and, by the way had 75lbs and 5" height and reach on me. But he came in extremely hard and fast. I wasn't able to shift or do anything fancy. There just wasn't time. I just took it like "REAL MAN" retreated with forward intent while firing that straight WC punch. Well those shots hurt my opponent and eventually slowed him down. Which then allowed the tide to change and I regained control of the fight and became the aggressor. Mentally it does something to an opponent when they give you all they got and expect you to go down. But you don't . It really messes with there head. I love it.

 

[Callen]

This is tricky.

It's not a system built for the typical sparring that encompasses pads and touch and go tactics. Likewise, as pointed out earlier, gloves impair the ability to apply a large variety of technique that is key to a well-rounded implementation of WC. While it's possible to do well using WC and wearing pads in a typical sparring environment, good technique possibilities will be limited. Because of this, I have found that true pressure testing will yield great gains in understanding how to use the tools of WC properly. I have seen many practitioners lose their ability to stay in WC once the heat is on, so it's good to train more aggressively at times to reinforce correct responses. Sometimes, getting tagged is just part of the journey.

 

[qianfeng]

How does the other person attack in whatever way they want? Boxing? Have they learnt boxing? Won't it jst be a guy using wing chun against someone punching wildly?

 

[drop bear]

The back and forth nonsense is usually what I see when WC gets owned in videos. They fall into that trap and I think we can ALL agree that the art was not design for that type of sport style of fighting. Now sometimes retreating is necessary but, with a forward/ returning intent.

That is not a chin only concept. I know a k1 guy who preaches returning intent.

 

[drop bear]

Sigh.. chun spell checker got me.

 

[Jake104]

Yes, exactly Drop Bear. Most Wing Chunners like to think things like, centerline, forward intent and economy of motion are exclusive to that art. Nope! I'd say to them get out more and train with other arts. You'll find a lot of similar concept and principals in other methods. I prefer training with non WC partners. For some reason WC guys don't like me much

 

[Jake104]

How does the other person attack in whatever way they want? Boxing? Have they learnt boxing? Won't it jst be a guy using wing chun against someone punching wildly?

Doesn't really matter. Personally I like the opponent to decide how he wants to attack, not the other way around. I like surprises and it makes it more realistic. I don't do the come at me with xyz method. I do the come at me however you want and then I improvise.

Now , nothing really wrong with the xyz method if your working a skill set. Just don't get stuck in that method. Use it to work that skill. Then test it in a spontaneous uncontrolled environment too see if it works against a boxer a butcher or a candlestick maker.

Hopefully they are training with a real boxer and not a WC guy pretending to be . I train with real boxers and a matter of fact, I got punched in the nose today by one. I'm so cool! Seriously though I deserved it. He was just keeping me honest. I got a little to fancy with my chun. It taught me a more direct way of what I was training. That's why sparring is important. It helps take fanasty out of the equation.