MMA vs TMA

[jks9199]

How does one "actively train" to gouge out someone's eyes or stick their fingers into someone's orifice?

Several ways. Goggles or other face protection. Oranges on the eye. Personally, my preference is simply SLOWLY. You can practice a lot of things if you're moving slowly, and seldom have trouble speeding up in the moment.

Also are you guys actually simulating spitting on each other during practice? No offence, but that's pretty disturbing (and disgusting).

For styles where it's a technique -- yep, they do it. And at targets, too. Personally, not a tactic I would be likely to use; usually not enough saliva in the heat of the moment to be able to do something meaningful. And, yeah, in scenario training... it's done.

In all seriousness, do you honestly believe a MMA practitioner wouldn't have the intelligence to modify their style for a self defense situation? It really doesn't take much brain power to bite someone, poke them in the eye, spit on someone, or pull their hair. I see kids do that to each other all the time.

Here's the deal. Neither is better. Each has it's own strength -- but you won't be likely to do something under andrenal stress unless you've practiced it beforehand, unless it's a very primal response. And sport oriented training, whether MMA or traditional karate competition, has a very high likelihood of ingraining some bad habits that may or may not be shed under pressure. A personal example: One of the first times I had to hit someone professionally as a cop, I delivered a beautiful series of punches, with wonderful control. Pushed the assailant back into a wall, he couldn't do anything... But I wasn't hurting him. Fortunately -- it was a role player in a training scenario. And I learned the lesson. Want a worse one? There was a cop who really got into gun disarms. He practiced them time & time again, and got incredibly good at them. One day, he's minding his own business, and a guy goes to stick him up. Oh, boy! I finally get to use my disarm, he thinks. And does. Then, just like he'd done thousands of time in practice, he handed the gun back to the guy who pointed it at him. OH ****! Fortunately, he repeated the disarm on the shocked robber, and kept the gun the second time. The point? You'll fight the way you practice.

I'm not saying that every person who trains in MMA will play by ring rules on the street -- but there are elements of MMA training that are not ideal for the street. And there are elements of TMA that aren't, either. But the "TMA sucks/MMA rules" or "MMA sucks/TMA rules" approach is just wrong. Hell, mixed or multiple martial arts training has been around from the start of martial arts here in the US! Even longer, look up bartitsu. Funakoshi talks about traveling to train with different teachers at different points in Okinawa before he went to Japan.

 

[ballen0351]

[QUote hanzou;1599962]Sounds like your friend showed the guy mercy and let him go. Its unfortunate that it was repaid with more violence. And yes, we are trained to be merciful, which is why when someone taps, we do let them go, because our goal isn't to destroy our adversary and mend a life. Our goal is to redeem our adversary and preserve life. Nothing is gained by snapping a person's arm if they are no longer a threat. Nothing is to be gained by choking someone until they die just because they're drunk and acting crazy. [/quote]
Not my friend just a guy that got his butt kicked in a bar fight. I mentioned I was a cop I responded to a fight call. He wasn't showing mercy he was reacting to his training in sport arts someone taps you let go that does not translate well to real life.

Ripping someone's hair out, biting someone in the neck, spiting in someone's face, blinding them with your fingers, and smashing their windpipe simply sounds barbaric compared to locking and arm, pinning a body, applying a wrist lock, or putting a ruffian to sleep.

That's budo.

Barbaric maybe but sonif fighting for you life against someone that is trying ti kill you. Nobody said every bar fight needs to end with a crushes windpipe. There are plenty of techniques availabe in Karate that includw arm bars wrist locks choke holds. Bjj isnt the only style that has these grappling moves. Like I said I train Judo as wellnas Karate ans we have bunkai in karate that have foot sweeps and other throws just like in judo.

That's a pretty gross misinterpretation of what I stated. I never said any of that.

No thats pretty much how it reads. Tma sucks and people that train tma are afraid to go into the ring.

 

[K-man]

If you truly believe that no TMA has ever competed, that TMA is useless for self defense despite decades and decades of proof then so be it. (ballen)

That's a pretty gross misinterpretation of what I stated. I never said any of that. (Hanzou)

Let' examine the evidence.

I don't believe that TMAs are all that effective.

If you can't fight in the ring with rules and safety, you're not going to be able to fight in the street where there are no rules or safety.

wrestlers and boxers tear traditional martial artists a new one over and over again.

Its not just sport karate that loses out to boxers and wrestlers. Its karate in general, along with many other traditional styles. Hence why those styles shy away from competition. Competition would expose their effectiveness in a fight.

I think he meant ineffectiveness.

The fact that it (TMA karate) doesn't do well in a controlled fighting environment makes its proficiency in an uncontrolled fighting environment highly suspect.

However, if a loved one was asking my opinion on a martial art to take to defend themselves, Karate wouldn't be one of the arts I would recommend to them.

Every experience I've had (usually against Karatekas and classical Jj practicioners), their locking and grappling abilities are ineffective, and severely lacking in technique and power. Most locks they attempt are pretty easily reversed and countered. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm simply discussing my experience.

So, yes, technically you never actually used the word useless but I feel the sentiment you expressed would not be considered 'gross misrepresentation'. Probably more akin to style bashing really and that is against forum rules.

1.10.2 No Art bashing

"No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best.
All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your
research and find what best fits your ability and need."

Let's look at the experience.

LoL! No, my background is simply in the Japanese martial arts. I've been doing martial arts for most of my life. But yes, since Shotokan isn't considered a traditional art, I haven't trained in a traditional MA style. Mostly because I could never verify whether it was real or some scam. Also all the squabbles about lineage and "purity" was annoying and childish. I moved over to Judo/Bjj and boxing. Much quieter, and quite a bit more effective.

Let's look at the only style of ineffective traditional karate cited.

You didn't read the conversation? We were talking about old school Karate styles like Shuri-te.

Shuri-te was the style of martial art taught around Shuri in Okinawa one hundred years ago and is not really a current style of Karate in the sense that its practitioners went on the develop other more popular styles like Shito-ryu, Shorin-Ryu, Shudokan, Shorinji-Ryu, and Motobu-Ryu. Shotokan was developed from Shito-ryu and Shorin-Ryu. Sure there are some schools in Okinawa that claim to teach Shuri-te and they have been 'discovered' by Westerners in more recent times but to cite Shuri-te as the example of traditional karate ... really!

 

[jks9199]

Ripping someone's hair out, biting someone in the neck, spiting in someone's face, blinding them with your fingers, and smashing their windpipe simply sounds barbaric compared to locking and arm, pinning a body, applying a wrist lock, or putting a ruffian to ...

Sorry but that's the reality of violence. Unless you have a scriptwriter in your back pocket and a stunt team -- violence isn't pretty or nice. It's brutal and rather uncivilized.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4

 

[Hanzou]

Sorry but that's the reality of violence. Unless you have a scriptwriter in your back pocket and a stunt them -- violence isn't pretty or nice. It's brutal and rather uncivilized.

Not always. Again, you don't need to destroy your opponent if it isn't necessary. And there's very few situations where it is necessary to kill or maim an opponent.

Frankly, you don't need MA training to bite someone or pull their hair. Like I said before, I've seen children do the exact same thing. We actually had a third grader once bite a teacher in her neck during school, drawing blood and causing a great deal of pain.

 

[Kframe]

Honestly why are we debating a obvious troll? Many people far more skilled then me have laid out quite eloquently why his views are wrong. He is a example of the "just bleed" type of mma fan. Just bleed fans are hated on sherdog as well as they don't appreciate technical fights were there is little blood and straight out wars.

Honestly he is the type of attitude that drove me away from mma. Im getting tired of egos and bad attitudes like he is displaying here.

 

[Koshiki]

Let me just point out that wrist locks are permitted and utilized in competitive Bjj;

Let me just point out that BJJ and MMA are two entirely different sports, even though the latter may be heavily influenced by the latter. Taekwondo was heavily influenced by Karate. Not at all the same thing. While wrist locks may ALSO be allowed in MMA, it's pretty hard to execute one with those gloves on. Yes, I own open-finger MMA-style gloves, yes, it makes a big difference. It becomes even harder when you are forbidden from, "holding the opponents gloves." If you can do wristlocks without holding my gloves, I commend your skill.

And yes, we do train them in the gym. At least where I train.

Good. I'm glad you recognize how useful they can be.

Also there's been numerous cases of competitors breaking arms in Judo and Bjj competition. One such incident took place at the Olympics;
...
Many schools of Judo and Bjj actively train in leg locks and breaks as well.

Which again, is not MMA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in amateur/gym level MMA, you're not supposed to throw against a joint or try to break an arm, yes? For example, if I began studying MMA at a gym, was grappling around, took control of an arm and smashed my forearm full force against the joint of the elbow, the instructor probably wouldn't give me a gold star, right?

And in Judo and BJJ, I'm pretty sure that arm breaks in competition are thought of as "horrific accidents," not "glorious and beautiful victories," no?

Just to clarify again, not every MMA school trains for the ring. Many MMA schools also train for self-defense purposes. Further, just because you're learning a sport, doesn't mean that the only thing you're going to be taught is the ring stuff. My school encourages competition, but we also get taught stuff that we can't use in the "ring".

Good. That makes for a well rounded martial sport/art. I'm glad you are acknowledging that there are techniques which just CANNOT be used in a full force competition. Martial Sports focus, mainly, on those that can be used in competition, Traditional Arts focus in large part on those that can't. MMA and TMA have a different balance, each more suitable for it's primary focus.

I'm sorry. I thought this was the MMA section.

It is. Head on over to ANY of the TMA sections, and you aren't likely to find a thread where the TMA guys repeatedly bash MMA and say that it is non-functional and that the MMA guys are afraid to test their skills outside of the ring on the street. To say that would be silly. If there is such a thread, I'm perfectly willing to say those TMArtists are being immature and showing their ignorance of MMA.

That would be a waste of time, because "competence" is a matter of opinion. If I showed a video of a Wing Chun practicioner getting man-handled by some random grappler, you could just say that the Wing Chun guy wasn't doing "real" Wing Chun, or whatever. Why bother?

There's a compilation video on Youtube of about an hour of Win Chun guys getting "man-handled" by a variety of different styles. There's also a compilation of guys from a variety of different style getting drilled by Win Chun guys. To be fair, when most stylists put on gloves, win chun, tai shing, karate, taekwondo, mma, whatever, when they put on gloves and try to have a forceful competition, it all starts to look pretty similar, lots of punches, some swinging leg kicks, and some rudimentary grappling. Everyone starts trying to do MMA, and if you don't train MMA, you're going to suck at it.

When the Tai Shing guys try to put on Karate sport gear, the karate stylists tag-tag-tag you're-it them into oblivion. But, when the karate guys try to fight under the Tai Shing rules, they get tied up, tangled, find themselves in a range where they can't function, elbowed to the head, and generally confused and defeated.

When someone says, "you're style is "bad" because it can't perform in the ring," what they are really saying, is, "when you try to do my style, which you don't train, with my rules, playing my game, I win." How many of us can claim to beat someone in their own style? Of course an MMA practitioner is better at MMA than a Win Chun practitioner. And of course the Win Chun guy is better at Win Chun. And neither of them is any good at savatte, I can almost guarantee you.

Frankly, you don't need MA training to bite someone or pull their hair. Like I said before, I've seen children do the exact same thing.

There's a difference between pulling hair just because it's there, and using the hair to control the head, and thus the body. Learning to use the hair as an effective gripping point DOES require quite a bit more practice than just grabbing on and yanking to cause pain, like a child might do. Children can also hit, kick, and wrestle, but I doubt you would claim that, because they can do all of that, it is pointless to learn to hit, kick, and grapple, would you?

Honestly why are we debating a obvious troll?

Well, because, well... it's fun?

More seriously, because the good sir Hanzou is not the only one reading or following this thread, so for those who might stumble across it in their interwebz searching, I like to think that false claims will be continuously and decisively exposed, rather than allowed to sit there misinforming the masses. For example, as I write this, there are 5 non members reading the thread. If it was just a reasonably articulate dismissal of TMA, that's five people right there who might be mislead.

And also, because it it kind of entertaining...

 

[RTKDCMB]

Since I've got a spare 2 cents.

Ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand.

Well. think about the nemesis of TMA practitioners; Wrestlers and Boxers. During my Karate days, most of my peers considered beating a boxer or a wrestler to be the ultimate showcase of the effectiveness of our styles. That says something, because it immediately implies that our TMA is inherently inferior to boxing and wrestling, and frankly for the most part it was.

That doesn't sound like you were at a particularly effective school.

When your sensei or sifu doesn't want you training at the local BJJ gym, something's wrong.

Or maybe they do not want their students to learn any combat cuddling and just want them to learn their style.

Actually I was taught traditional Shotokan Karate. However, even if I was learning "sport Karate" wrestling and boxing are also sports, and in contest after contest, wrestlers and boxers tear traditional martial artists a new one over and over again. What are they doing that TMA exponents are not doing?

As I recall, in the early days of the UFC, when there were no rules, pure boxers did not do particularly well. There were many TMA exponents who won many of their fights (Gerad Gordeu, Keith Hackney, Patrick Smith etc)

Well that's what I'm saying. If you're training for competition at various intervals, you're going to be in some level of shape versus someone who never trains for competition. A person who competes every six months or so is still going to be in better physical condition than someone who never competes, or will never compete. An athlete is simply superior in terms of physical conditioning than a non-athlete. Boxing, Judo, and Wrestling facilitate this. TMA simply does not (for the most part).

Since most street fight last only a few seconds you don't need to be an extreme athlete to able to defend yourself.

Let's be honest; In the vast majority of TMA schools, the kata is simply in place just to fatten the curriculum (and the wallet), and give owners something to grade their students. It is almost never broken down to its core techniques. Mainly because of time constraints, and mainly because its an out of date training tool. There's nothing wrong with preserving the traditional art. However in terms of fighting and self defense, such things are pretty useless. In terms of physical fitness and exercise, they are great though.

The primary purpose of patterns is to learn and practice basic technique, to train your body for the rigors of blocking, kicking and striking to produce maximum speed and power, which is directly useful for self defence. The patterns are broken down to their core techniques during the pattern because you concentrate on each individual technique at the time you do them by checking and correcting the technique.

They were created to fight on a battlefield, but people haven't used them on the battlefield for centuries.

The armed forces of Korea are taught Taekwondo and other Korean TMA, The head of my school was a lead instructor of Korean Marines he taught his TMA to the 'Demon Hunter Marines' who were one of the most feared military units of the Korean war - last century I believe.

Its not just sport karate that loses out to boxers and wrestlers. Its karate in general, along with many other traditional styles. Hence why those styles shy away from competition. Competition would expose their effectiveness in a fight.

Competitions and challenge matches are not a very accurate way of determining the effectiveness of a martial art or a practitioner because there will be rules and agreed upon conditions and each person involved will know that the other person is not tying to seriously injure or kill them. If someone really wants to know how effective a TMA practitioner who does not compete truly is then just go up to one and attack him in the street and see what happens. Unfortunately no one can do that without exposing himself as a criminal and a douche.

The fact that Judoka and Bjj practitioners can perform locks and throws in a competitive environment while traditional arts cannot proves my point.

As someone who does martial arts solely for self defence, there are only 2 reasons I would usually use a lock or a throw, 1. to incapacitate my attacker by either throwing him to the ground and finishing him off with a strike or breaking/dislocating a joint. 2. releasing myself from a hold and then either running away or finishing him off with a strike or breaking/dislocating a joint.

I'm talking about the traditional martial arts styles that refuse to compete.

Using a self defence oriented TMA to compete in a competition with rules is like declawing a cat and expecting it to be able to still climb trees and scratch the furniture as well as the other cats. It always amuses me when a competition/sport martial art complains that these TMA's are do not compete because they are "too deadly" usually only mention that this is because of "eye gouges" and "groin strikes" and then oppose a set of rules to limit the use of certain techniques for the "safety of the fighters". These arts, mine included, do not compete because they are designed for self defence and not sports or games to be played. There are a host of techniques that would be too dangerous to use as they were intended, for a competition because they are designed to end a confrontation quickly and efficiently, we are not concerned with our opponent's need to train and fight another day and earn a living we just want to get away without being injured or killed. Techniques such as a knifehand strike to the clavicle/side of the neck/base of the skull, side kick to the side of the knee to break the leg, double palm slap to the ears, elbow to the back of the head, middle knuckle strike to the kidneys etc, etc ,etc.

Now I need to get another 2 cents.

 

[Hanzou]

Let me just point out that BJJ and MMA are two entirely different sports, even though the latter may be heavily influenced by the latter. Taekwondo was heavily influenced by Karate. Not at all the same thing. While wrist locks may ALSO be allowed in MMA, it's pretty hard to execute one with those gloves on. Yes, I own open-finger MMA-style gloves, yes, it makes a big difference. It becomes even harder when you are forbidden from, "holding the opponents gloves." If you can do wristlocks without holding my gloves, I commend your skill.

Bjj is part of the standard MMA curriculum.

I've seen quite a few MMA fighters grapple just fine with open fingered gloves. Rhonda Rousey for example does an amazing job at performing standard Judo throws and arm locks with open fingered gloves.

Which again, is not MMA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in amateur/gym level MMA, you're not supposed to throw against a joint or try to break an arm, yes? For example, if I began studying MMA at a gym, was grappling around, took control of an arm and smashed my forearm full force against the joint of the elbow, the instructor probably wouldn't give me a gold star, right?

And in Judo and BJJ, I'm pretty sure that arm breaks in competition are thought of as "horrific accidents," not "glorious and beautiful victories," no?

I do believe the point was the Bjj and Judo locks/throws can break limbs if fully executed without regard for the safety of the opponent. The fact that such throws and locks are the staple of Bjj/Judo training, it makes those practitioners very potent in a self defense situation.

Good. That makes for a well rounded martial sport/art. I'm glad you are acknowledging that there are techniques which just CANNOT be used in a full force competition. Martial Sports focus, mainly, on those that can be used in competition, Traditional Arts focus in large part on those that can't. MMA and TMA have a different balance, each more suitable for it's primary focus.

The difference being of course how each one trains. MMAs tend to be more modern and alive. TMAs tend to utilize old training methods and patterned movements. Its like comparing an AK-47 to a musket.

It is. Head on over to ANY of the TMA sections, and you aren't likely to find a thread where the TMA guys repeatedly bash MMA and say that it is non-functional and that the MMA guys are afraid to test their skills outside of the ring on the street. To say that would be silly. If there is such a thread, I'm perfectly willing to say those TMArtists are being immature and showing their ignorance of MMA.

I apologize if you think I'm "bashing" TMAs. I'm simply pointing out their flaws, and the problems that I have witnessed from their practitioners. Nothing more, nothing less.

When someone says, "you're style is "bad" because it can't perform in the ring," what they are really saying, is, "when you try to do my style, which you don't train, with my rules, playing my game, I win." How many of us can claim to beat someone in their own style? Of course an MMA practitioner is better at MMA than a Win Chun practitioner. And of course the Win Chun guy is better at Win Chun. And neither of them is any good at savatte, I can almost guarantee you.

Gene Labelle did just fine against a boxer in a fight. He was able to modify Judo to work in a boxing ring against a boxing opponent. The Gracies openly challenged anyone to a contest regardless of style. Huo Yuanjia fought wrestlers and boxers with traditional Kung Fu. Seriously, the idea that your art is at a disadvantage because of rules is a pretty silly excuse.

 

[K-man]

I think this discussion has come full circle.

MMA is sport. MMA fighters, at competition level, are very well rounded fighters in the ring. If they were to be matched, in the ring, with a competition trained athlete from TKD, Karate, Judo or Jujitsu they will probably have enough skills to match that person in his area of expertise but should have an advantage when the situation is changed to one that is not the other persons area of expertise.


But the OP is asking about MMA vs TMA. There are many threads discussing TMAs and much debate as to what is 'traditional'. Without defining TMA it is hard to even consider the question, then are we going to look at weight differences and skill levels? But, I think what can be refuted is the idea that MMA fighters are the only 'real' fighters.


Youtube gives good coverage af actual professional fights but when it comes to amateur 'this vs that' I don't believe many give a true picture of either side's real potential. This topic is very much like a dog chasing its tail.
:asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

Gene Labelle did just fine against a boxer in a fight. He was able to modify Judo to work in a boxing ring against a boxing opponent. The Gracies openly challenged anyone to a contest regardless of style. Huo Yuanjia fought wrestlers and boxers with traditional Kung Fu. Seriously, the idea that your art is at a disadvantage because of rules is a pretty silly excuse.

Yet the Gracies refused to let Gene Labelle go through with their challenge.

 

[Dinkydoo]

The fact that such throws and locks are the staple of Bjj/Judo training, it makes those practitioners very potent in a self defense situation.

That is your opinion, nothing more. Being able to fight in the ring doesn't automatically make you good at fighting in the street and vice versa, this has been covered by several users.

The difference being of course how each one trains. MMAs tend to be more modern and alive. TMAs tend to utilize old training methods and patterned movements. Its like comparing an AK-47 to a musket.

How patronising can you get. Please cite your experience in full of TMAs that qualifies you to make such judgements - and being an MMA fanboy doesn't count.

I apologize if you think I'm "bashing" TMAs. I'm simply pointing out their flaws, and the problems that I have witnessed from their practitioners. Nothing more, nothing less.

Examples. What have you witnessed and from which style?

Gene Labelle did just fine against a boxer in a fight. He was able to modify Judo to work in a boxing ring against a boxing opponent. The Gracies openly challenged anyone to a contest regardless of style. Huo Yuanjia fought wrestlers and boxers with traditional Kung Fu. Seriously, the idea that your art is at a disadvantage because of rules is a pretty silly excuse.

So is it the practitioners or the styles that are inferior to MMA?

 

[Hanzou]

Yet the Gracies refused to let Gene Labelle go through with their challenge.

Not that that is relevant to my point, but that isn't what happened:

Another episode that could be included with the Gracie Challenge occurred when the Gracies challenged "Judo" Gene LeBell. The Gracies wanted to match Rickson Gracie with the American grappling master/professional wrestler/stuntman. Gene LeBell, who was almost 60 at the time, replied that Rickson was much younger than him and that he would instead grapple with Hélio Gracie who was closer in age to him. When confronted with this reply, the Gracies accepted the challenge on the condition that Gene LeBell drop down to the 140 pound weight class of the 80-year old Hélio Gracie. At that point, Gene LeBell allegedly backed out of both the original challenge and his own counterchallenge because he was around 200 pounds and could never make it down to 140 pounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracie_Challenge

 

[Hanzou]

That is your opinion, nothing more. Being able to fight in the ring doesn't automatically make you good at fighting in the street and vice versa, this has been covered by several users.

Being able to fight in the ring at least shows that you're able to fight. Does anyone doubt that Mike Tyson or Mohammed Ali in their prime could beat the crap out of 95% of people? Anyone think that Rhonda Rousey or Georges St. Pierre couldn't defend themselves better than the vast majority of the human population?

Here's a video of an incident where a bjj competitor used pretty basic techniques to subdue a crazy drunk in a restaurant;

Again, does it strike anyone as odd that TMAs use boxers, wrestlers, and increasingly BJJ stylists as their imaginary opponents in practice? I see it all the time; This is how you take down a wrestler! This is what you need to do if you're facing a guy with great striking like a boxer! Use these techniques to stop a bjj guy from getting you in an armbar!

How patronising can you get. Please cite your experience in full of TMAs that qualifies you to make such judgements - and being an MMA fanboy doesn't count.

If you're a martial artist, you're going to run into a variety of TMA schools. I'd rather not name any names, because I don't want to be accused of style bashing.

Examples. What have you witnessed and from which style?

Run back through my posts. I've listed plenty of examples.

So is it the practitioners or the styles that are inferior to MMA?

It can be both. It can be the style that uses antiquated training methods, and it can be the practitioners who believe in crazy nonsense instead of a proven method.

Here's an extreme example;

These people actually believed that this guy could hit them with chi energy. When he fought in a competition, he was exposed to be the fraud he was.

 

[ballen0351]

Being able to fight in the ring at least shows that you're able to fight. Does anyone doubt that Mike Tyson or Mohammed Ali in their prime could beat the crap out of 95% of people? Anyone think that Rhonda Rousey or Georges St. Pierre couldn't defend themselves better than the vast majority of the human population?

seriously? Tyson and Ali could defeat 95% of everyone including other trained fighters thats a silly example.

Here's a video of an incident where a bjj competitor used pretty basic techniques to subdue a crazy drunk in a restaurant;

Has anyone said you cant use BJJ as self defense?

Again, does it strike anyone as odd that TMAs use boxers, wrestlers, and increasingly BJJ stylists as their imaginary opponents in practice? I see it all the time; This is how you take down a wrestler! This is what you need to do if you're facing a guy with great striking like a boxer! Use these techniques to stop a bjj guy from getting you in an armbar!

thats smart since Bjj is the soup of the day. As fast as schools are popping up and as many affliction shirts I see walking around there is a chance the person your fighting has seen the UFC on tv or tried a free BJJ class.

If you're a martial artist, you're going to run into a variety of TMA schools. I'd rather not name any names, because I don't want to be accused of style bashing.

So none?

Run back through my posts. I've listed plenty of examples.



It can be both. It can be the style that uses antiquated training methods, and it can be the practitioners who believe in crazy nonsense instead of a proven method.

Here's an extreme example;

These people actually believed that this guy could hit them with chi energy. When he fought in a competition, he was exposed to be the fraud he was.

I dont think many think this is even a real martial art and its def not a traditional Martial art

 

[Kframe]

That Kiai video disturbs me on a deep level. I can see him paying a few people in class to act and take part in the fraud, but holy smokes. Looking at the beginning, he had ALOT of people coming at him. Unless he is rich, I don't see how he has enough money to pay that many actors. Its almost like a cult in that place. That is frightening.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Being able to fight in the ring at least shows that you're able to fight. Does anyone doubt that Mike Tyson or Mohammed Ali in their prime could beat the crap out of 95% of people? Anyone think that Rhonda Rousey or Georges St. Pierre couldn't defend themselves better than the vast majority of the human population?.

Fight....... with a set of rules. The guys you've mentioned were the best in their field, of course they could defend themselves, but you can't apply that logic to everyone who has ever put on a pair of gloves and sparred at a martial arts club. You're doing a hell of a lot of generalising on this thread based on nothing more than your own prejudices and bias.

Here's a video of an incident where a bjj competitor used pretty basic techniques to subdue a crazy drunk in a restaurant;

That's nice. I know that BJJ can be used for competitive fighting and self defence, so can Wing Chun....

Vs Karate

Vs TKD

Vs Muay Thai

This doesn't mean that Wing Chun is more superior than each of these styles, rather that, if trained properly then one can use Wing Chun to fight and defend themselves.

Again, does it strike anyone as odd that TMAs use boxers, wrestlers, and increasingly BJJ stylists as their imaginary opponents in practice? I see it all the time; This is how you take down a wrestler! This is what you need to do if you're facing a guy with great striking like a boxer! Use these techniques to stop a bjj guy from getting you in an armbar!

Which TMAists use boxers and wrestlers as their imaginary opponents? What style have you seen this from? Why would this be a bad thing?

If you're a martial artist, you're going to run into a variety of TMA schools. I'd rather not name any names, because I don't want to be accused of style bashing.


Run back through my posts. I've listed plenty of examples.

You've stated that you had a little experience in sport Karate. How does that qualify you to pass judgement on every TMA? You have continuously said on this thread that TMA's do X and Y and that is why they are inferior to sport arts; surely you can't have formed that opinion from training in one style of TMA...

It can be both. It can be the style that uses antiquated training methods, and it can be the practitioners who believe in crazy nonsense instead of a proven method.

Here's an extreme example;

These people actually believed that this guy could hit them with chi energy. When he fought in a competition, he was exposed to be the fraud he was.

He is a fraud and any credible Martial Artist would recognise that.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Not that that is relevant to my point, but that isn't what happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracie_Challenge

That was a purely face saving exersize, they gave Gene Labelle a seemingly impossible task of losing that much weight so that they could back out without appearing weak. They prided themselves on proving that a smaller man could easily beat a larger opponent using BJJ yet still imposed that condition. They also backed away from a challenge by Benny the Jet Urquidez.

Being able to fight in the ring at least shows that you're able to fight. Does anyone doubt that Mike Tyson or Mohammed Ali in their prime could beat the crap out of 95% of people? Anyone think that Rhonda Rousey or Georges St. Pierre couldn't defend themselves better than the vast majority of the human population?

The vast majority of the population do not do martial arts and the vast majority of the ones that do are not at a high level.

Again, does it strike anyone as odd that TMAs use boxers, wrestlers, and increasingly BJJ stylists as their imaginary opponents in practice? I see it all the time; This is how you take down a wrestler! This is what you need to do if you're facing a guy with great striking like a boxer! Use these techniques to stop a bjj guy from getting you in an armbar!

I hate to break it too ya (not really) but BJJ uses that tactic all the time, "this is what you do against a striker", 'BJJ versus (insert style here)'. In my school we do not use boxers, wrestlers, and BJJ stylists as imaginary opponents in practice, we use imaginary opponents (it's called visualization) who attack with kicks, strikes, throws, takedowns etc. If there is an attack that is used more commonly when a new style becomes prominent, such as double leg takedowns etc. We train against individuals not styles.

The Kiai master is a nut job, no one takes him seriously.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Vs Muay Thai

http://youtu.be/OtpLNp24UUM

The mirror lost.

 

[Hanzou]

Fight....... with a set of rules. The guys you've mentioned were the best in their field, of course they could defend themselves, but you can't apply that logic to everyone who has ever put on a pair of gloves and sparred at a martial arts club. You're doing a hell of a lot of generalising on this thread based on nothing more than your own prejudices and bias.

Sparring at a martial arts club is quite a bit different than sparring in a full contact competition. In the latter, both parties are trying to win. Its the closest thing to a street fight without actually being in a street fight. Its also the only way you can truly test your abilities against a fully resisting opponent.

That's nice. I know that BJJ can be used for competitive fighting and self defence, so can Wing Chun....


This doesn't mean that Wing Chun is more superior than each of these styles, rather that, if trained properly then one can use Wing Chun to fight and defend themselves.

I think you missed my point. My video was showing a "sport style" being used in a self defense situation against a drunken person. It wasn't two martial artists squaring off against each other in a dojo.

However, I anxiously await the day when Wing Chun appears in MMA tournaments. I mean why wouldn't it? The hand movements and low kicks would fit MMA like a glove.

There's a good reason you'll never see it though.

Which TMAists use boxers and wrestlers as their imaginary opponents? What style have you seen this from? Why would this be a bad thing?

Where did I say this was a bad thing? I'm just pointing out that most of us agree that if we're going to be fighting someone on the street, they're more than likely going to be some derivative of boxer, wrestler, or MMAer. Martial Athletes are viewed as dangerous opponents.

You've stated that you had a little experience in sport Karate. How does that qualify you to pass judgement on every TMA? You have continuously said on this thread that TMA's do X and Y and that is why they are inferior to sport arts; surely you can't have formed that opinion from training in one style of TMA...

Let's just say that I've been around the block a few times. Being trained in martial arts has allowed me to experience many different styles of martial arts. I am thankful for that, because it has allowed me to cut through the BS of a lot of claims and fantasies. Again, if my children were seeking a Martial Art for self defense, a TMA wouldn't be on the radar.

He is a fraud and any credible Martial Artist would recognise that.

Of course, but his students were not credible martial artists when he swindled them. Fortunately he accepted a public challenge, and was exposed for the fraud he was.