MMA vs TMA

[Hanzou]

How do you know how smooth the fight would have been? Your an expert on the fighting style of the Memphis Area Metro Transit Authority ? do you know anything about the guy to be able to make a statement on how the fight would go or how smooth it would be? The video shows him square up to fight and the other guy said in the clip he told him he wanted to fight. Never once did he even attempt to detain the suspect. Police 101 is to get people on the ground to get then cuffed. He never made a single attempt.

They clinched at least three times. Had the cop been trained in grappling, he could have taken him to the ground and ended the fight swiftly and decisively. Instead you have a messy brawl that goes on far too long.

 

[ballen0351]

They clinched at least three times. Had the cop been trained in grappling, he could have taken him to the ground and ended the fight swiftly and decisively. Instead you have a messy brawl that goes on far too long.

That was the point. But I forgot your the expert on all things combat so you must be right.

 

[jks9199]

They clinched at least three times. Had the cop been trained in grappling, he could have taken him to the ground and ended the fight swiftly and decisively. Instead you have a messy brawl that goes on far too long.

It ain't always so easy, no matter how well trained or how skilled you are... Trust the experience of those who have been there and have the T-shirt...

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4

 

[Hanzou]

It ain't always so easy, no matter how well trained or how skilled you are... Trust the experience of those who have been there and have the T-shirt...

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4

Its easy if you're trained to do it. It's even more easy when you have multiple oppurtunities to do it.

 

[Hanzou]

MMA has been widely publicized, by media and by MMA reps, as being LESS dangerous than many other rough sports, like hockey, football... A super-quick internet search should make that pretty clear. Also, as I recall from being reprimanded, elbow/knee strikes to the head are generally only allowed in pro MMA, yes? So, it's not like the average MMA joe is going around getting kneed in the face every Saturday open mat? Maybe it's different in Maine, but...

The argument was that people who compete aren't trying to do serious bodily harm o one another. I believe that someone trying to pound you in the face and potentially send you to the hospital is trying to do serious bodily harm to you.

MMA tends to be less dangerous than Hockey and Football because a MMA match doesn't last as long as a football or hockey game. Getting consistently blasted by huge linebackers for the better part of two hours tends to wear your body down.

The person who can, in the split second of the moment, scan the entire room and determine that NONE of the people are friendly enough with the aggressor to come to their aid with the proverbial beer bottle, choose which technique to perform, and then perform it with good results is, I might suppose, of such preternatural skill and ability to be above the need for learning ANY fighting style. That sort of awareness, speed, and dexterity should be more than enough to keep you safe, you super-ninja, you.

Im curious how you got all of that out of me simply pointing out that one of modern martial art's greatest advantages is its repetition of comparatively few techniques. I've even provided two videos of guys performing MMA and doing pretty basic skills to control a situation.

Also, as Mr. Hanzou has mentioned time and again, in the heat of the moment, you don't have time to decide which technique to perform, which is why learning so many is just silly. You have to drill one or two so that they come without thinking, all else is wasted time. Apparently. I would assume that applies to this situation too, yes? So, If I won't be able to react with a decision to palm strike rather than punch, perhaps the average MMA fellow wouldn't be able to react with the decision to grapple or stand? Not my views, just asking about the ones I've seen stated...

No, the MMA fellow has the benefit of randori. So they've simulated full resistance grappling in the dojo, and reinforced that full resistance grappling in a competition environment. The advantage that grappling arts have over striking arts is that I can go full blast with a Judo throw or Bjj takedown in the dojo because my partner (should) know how to fall without injuring themselves. So I don't need to pull back when I do a one-armed shoulder throw, a guillotine choke, or a rear takedown during randori. Additionally, my partner is giving me full resistance, because his goal is to do the same thing to me. on the ground, we're both going full blast to try to gain the dominant position, just like we would in an actual fight.

So if I end up in a clinch in a self defense situation, I can throw my untrained opponent with relative ease, and he won't be falling properly, and he will more than likely be landing on concrete. If I get bjj black belt in a choke, I'm probably going to get the untrained brawler in a choke as well. It's even better when you train without a gi.

This was the genius of Jigaro Kano, the founder of Judo.

Because, without knuckle padding, four punches doesn't really cut it for those of us who want to protect our bodies AND our hands. A punch to the skull can be a pretty bad idea. Have you ever sparred with the full-contact that you love MMA for, and done it WITHOUT gloves? I bet you either started pulling your head shots, or developed some pretty painful wrists pretty quickly. Throat might be a good target for a strike, but it's hard to get a fist in under the chin... Nose/mouth is a great target, but it will almost certainly open your knuckles. The stretched, thin skin of the knuckles splits easily, and the stretching causes it to pull/suck whatever is on the knuckle back into the cut when the hand is opened. Probably a good time to get your blood tested, it would suck to win the fight and contract HIV or VHF...

You could always carry a pair of gloves in your back pocket, just in case something crazy pops off.

There are probably over a hundred "Kung Fu" systems out there. Was this Tai Shing? Shaolin Fist? Win Chun? Baguazhang? They are all incredibly different. Even supposing you were at a good traditional school, unlikely if they just taught generic "kung fu," and you managed to learn and understand everything, it doesn't mean you experienced anything of the other many many martial arts out there known as "kung fu."

Again, I'd rather not name styles. I don't want to be accused of style bashing.

...So, you're arguing that, because some people know from nothing and call it "kung fu," (Which means nothing, again!), that the actual variety of martial arts which really ARE kung fu are also bad? I bet I can find you a couch potato who watches the UFC and claims he is a MMA fighter, but knows nothing. That doesn't change the fact that MMA is a highly effective and very demanding sport.

The difference being that that couch potato couldn't open up an MMA school and be taken seriously. The culture is different. In MMA, your instructor is tested by his students constantly. If you open up an MMA school, you better know how to grapple, box, and whatever else, because people will be rolling through to test you. In the TMAs, that couch potato could open up a school and perform some pretty movements, and few will question him, much less challenge him. It's simply a different culture. I call my bjj instructor by his first name for example, while in Karate it was sensei, or master.

Yes that was terrible. He had poor balance, poor technique, poor control, and mimed smashing his knuckles of the sturdiest bone in the human body... Was that Shaloin Kempo Karate? Not exactly a traditional art; it's what, half as old as BJJ? Not sure how that's relevant. Especially since Kajunkenbo and SKK are often cited as some of the primary attempts at Mixed Martial Arts.

The uninitiated won't be able to tell the difference between kenpo a, kenpo b, or kenpo c. To this day, I don't understand the entire story of the kenpo lineage, and I don't really care. If you tell me you know Kenpo Karate, I'm going to assume you know Kenpo Karate. The internal squabbles over what is true Kenpo or Kung Fu, and what isn't is fairly childish stuff.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Then you wouldn't do that particular move. You would assess the situation and make adjustments. In that situation shown in the vid, it was very smart, because it restrained the drunk.

Ah but friends of drunks can be sneaky, they can wait until both guys are on the ground and then pick up a beer bottle and hit him over the head, then it would be too late to make any adjustments. If he had just knocked him out with a knife hand strike to the neck (like Jay Lee did) then he could have dealt with any other attackers without being so vulnerable.

I'm sorry, but I simply disagree. Pre-arranged crap like that is a bad way to teach someone how to defend themselves. Even at full speed, that set up looked sloppy and pathetic. Even worse, having the targets at pre-determined starting points is even worse. Its far better to teach general mechanics of a move, and how to apply them in different situations. For example,the standard Judo/Bjj armbar can be applied from a variety of angles and situations. I can throw someone down and apply it. I can apply it from my back. I can apply it if I'm top of someone. I can apply it if I'm on their back. I could even apply it in a flying arm bar if I was that flexible (and that crazy). Since I can do that one movement in so many ways, it makes it easy for my mind to remember the technique. Rhonda Rousey is a prime example of this phenomenon, because she defeats ALL of her opponents with the arm bar,

First of all, can we stop using that video as an example, he was terrible? To do a standard armbar you have to first get someone on the ground first (there are many arm locks you can apply standing, the standard armbar is not one of them). The flying armbar? Try doing that on concrete, you would smash your own head into the ground and they can help you do it and it would not take much for your opponent to step over and stomp on your head. As for the prearranged movements, if you do not do them then your technique often ends up sloppy and ineffective. In those prearranged starting points you mention, there are only a limited number of ways they can hold you like that (they are not going to grab you upside down or backwards). Prearranged movements teach you the mechanics of the situation that you can modify to suit a different situation. An example is the front choke (when someone reaches out with both hands and grabs your neck from the front), you are taught several methods to get out of it and they depend on; whether the attacker is physically stronger than you, you are pinned against a wall, the opponent is taller than you etc, you also are taught how to stop someone grabbing you that way. traditional martial arts are taught that way because it works.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Sais, Nunchuks, and Kamas are originally all farm tools.

I am well aware of that, I simply do not use them.

I'm sure he knows how to throw a knife hand. My issue is with the result. He got the guy at exactly the right angle, at exactly the right time, hence the knockout blow. We both know that such a result is pretty rare, because if it wasn't, EVERYONE would be learning knife hands to instantly knock out people. That said, that gentleman did a good thing, and he should be applauded for knocking that scumbag to the ground.

It's rare for it to be caught on video, that's all. Everyone IS learning knife hand strike, it is a very powerful techniques that is taught in many TMA's to people who have the accuracy to use it effectievly. It's not taught in MMA because it is illegal to strike to the neck, once again, for the safety of the competitors.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Overall though, the most humane and civilized way to dispatch someone is via bjj (or Judo). Putting someone to sleep or pinning them on the ground is better than gouging out their eyes, biting their neck, breaking their windpipe, ripping off their nuts, etc. Its also safer and more reliable.

The last thing you should be thinking about when you get attacked is the well being of your attacker, that can get you hurt. I have never heard of anyone (except vampires) biting someones neck in a fight, as for the other things, that would only be for an extreme situation. It is safer and more reliable for you to knock out or knock the wind out of your attacker so he can't continue.

If I was instructing a TMA, I would teach all of my students how to box and how to wrestle. I would teach them how to jab, boxing footwork, MT clinch and knees, guillotine chokes, and how to do a single leg and double leg takedown. Why? Because they work, and they're likely to encounter that sort of thing in a fight. Why learn 25 hand strikes when you really only need 4? IMO, its a waste of time. But then again, I view nothing as sacred.

Then you would be teaching MMA. Many, if not most TMA's have some form of jab, boxing foot work works well - for boxing, once you add kicking and grappling, not so much. The boxing style clinch is not very smart for self defence, in a competition fight headbutts and knees to the groin are illegal and most of the knees are to keep the fighter busy to avoid referee separation and score points. Grabbing behind the neck and kneeing is common to TMA's as well but it's not good to stay there very long. I have already explained the dangers of a double leg takedown. I have seen MMA bouts where the single leg was held for several minutes, not something that is recommended in the street. 4 hand strikes is not enough to cover enough situations, in boxing they have nothing that comes at a downward angle or from the inside to the outside, such as a backfist and no elbows, so you need more than 4.

Boxing was developed for the ring, and its a great self defense tool. Personally, I think its the top stand-up MA, because its simple, scientific, mobile, and teaches you how to generate power with very little movement.

Boxing has powerful punches and can be usefull for self defence but it is nowhere near the top standup MA because it is way too limited.

You're starting to see a resurgence of boxing in MMA as the ground game is becoming neutralized due to so many people learning how to defend themselves from take downs.

Basically you are saying that things like BJJ are becoming less effective.

If your school is pumping out bad students, its known almost instantly, because your guys are getting tapped out.

Bad students are not that difficult to spot:

 

[Hanzou]

Ah but friends of drunks can be sneaky, they can wait until both guys are on the ground and then pick up a beer bottle and hit him over the head, then it would be too late to make any adjustments. If he had just knocked him out with a knife hand strike to the neck (like Jay Lee did) then he could have dealt with any other attackers without being so vulnerable.

Now we're entering silly country.

Knocking someone out with a knife hand is a rare occurrence. Taking someone down with a double leg take down is common occurrence. Chances are, you're not going to knock someone out with a knife hand, which will force you to go to plan B. However with take downs, gravity isn't going anywhere, and neither is the surface of the Earth.

Also if you're leery of the double leg take down, try a safer take down. The shock of the impact alone is often enough to stun the attacker, and allow you to bounce right back up into standing position.

Like I said, its all about assessing the situation.

First of all, can we stop using that video as an example, he was terrible?

Would you prefer this one?

I especially like the Mantis slap to the head. I don't think I've laughed that hard in a long time.

 

[Hanzou]

The last thing you should be thinking about when you get attacked is the well being of your attacker, that can get you hurt. I have never heard of anyone (except vampires) biting someones neck in a fight, as for the other things, that would only be for an extreme situation. It is safer and more reliable for you to knock out or knock the wind out of your attacker so he can't continue.

Attempting to knock out your opponent, or knock the wind out of your opponent is unreliable. Like that security guard fighting that thug, he couldn't knock him out despite the fact that he was better trained, and about equal size. Utilizing takedowns, locks, holds, and chokes is quite a bit more reliable.

Of course if you can get a lucky knockout blow like the karateka in that video, more power to you.

Then you would be teaching MMA. Many, if not most TMA's have some form of jab, boxing foot work works well - for boxing, once you add kicking and grappling, not so much. The boxing style clinch is not very smart for self defence, in a competition fight headbutts and knees to the groin are illegal and most of the knees are to keep the fighter busy to avoid referee separation and score points. Grabbing behind the neck and kneeing is common to TMA's as well but it's not good to stay there very long. I have already explained the dangers of a double leg takedown. I have seen MMA bouts where the single leg was held for several minutes, not something that is recommended in the street. 4 hand strikes is not enough to cover enough situations, in boxing they have nothing that comes at a downward angle or from the inside to the outside, such as a backfist and no elbows, so you need more than 4.

Its safe to say that there is a danger in everything you do, and one technique doesn't work in every situation. My point is that boxing is both simple to pick up, and its footwork is fantastic to keep you mobile, generate power, and judge distances. I would agree that I would prefer the MT clinch to the boxing clinch. Not only can you knee from the MT clinch, but cross-training with bjj has allowed many MT schools to teach how to throw someone to the ground while in the clinch. Few things suck more than getting kneed and elbowed in the head, and then getting thrown to the canvas.

Basically you are saying that things like BJJ are becoming less effective.

In sport MMA yes. But that's only because everyone studies Bjj, so everyone becomes very good at it. They're training with some of the best Bjj instructors in the world.

I wouldn't exactly say that its less effective. However, it has definitely been neutralized, for now.

Bad students are not that difficult to spot:

You'll get a kick out of this one too;

I think its the same school. What's even more hilarious is that they're ALL 6th degree black belts, and they kick and punch like garbage.

Maybe they're all doing it for exercise?

 

[ballen0351]

Its easy if you're trained to do it. It's even more easy when you have multiple oppurtunities to do it.

Thats right JKS. What do we know we only have decades of police experience and been in countless real live fights with real live bad guys. What do we know? I've only been a law enforcement defensive tactics instructor for 10 years and part of my departments use of force review board for 4 years. I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about.

 

[Hanzou]

Thats right JKS. What do we know we only have decades of police experience and been in countless real live fights with real live bad guys. What do we know? I've only been a law enforcement defensive tactics instructor for 10 years and part of my departments use of force review board for 4 years. I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about.

Maybe we're talking about two different things here, but are you saying that your police department would rather have you punch and knee a suspect in the face multiple times instead of pinning him down and/or cuffing him?

 

[ballen0351]

Maybe we're talking about two different things here, but are you saying that your police department would rather have you punch and knee a suspect in the face multiple times instead of pinning him down and/or cuffing him?

No I'm saying that guy never made a single attempt to cuff that guy. He wanted to fight not arrest. He never made an attempt to take him down not because he wasn't trained but because he didn't want to. He even told the suspect he wanted to fight. He didn't want to pin and cuff him he wanted to beat him up. So as you were using the exapmle of a poorly trained grappler I'm telling you he wasn't trying to grapple. He wanted to duke it out in the street.

 

[Hanzou]

No I'm saying that guy never made a single attempt to cuff that guy. He wanted to fight not arrest. He never made an attempt to take him down not because he wasn't trained but because he didn't want to. He even told the suspect he wanted to fight. He didn't want to pin and cuff him he wanted to beat him up. So as you were using the exapmle of a poorly trained grappler I'm telling you he wasn't trying to grapple. He wanted to duke it out in the street.

Okay, and like I said, if this guy had decided to take him to the ground and subdue him, it would have went a lot faster and smoother for him. Which is why I don't believe that this guy was trained in grappling. A grappler would have taken the fight to the ground and finished the fight decisively.

 

[ballen0351]

Okay, and like I said, if this guy had decided to take him to the ground and subdue him, it would have went a lot faster and smoother for him. Which is why I don't believe that this guy was trained in grappling. A grappler would have taken the fight to the ground and finished the fight decisively.

It don't matter if he was training in grappling or not. He wanted to knock him out. No street cred in going to the ground. Its all about the knock out in the "hood" for lack of a better term.

 

[Hanzou]

It don't matter if he was training in grappling or not. He wanted to knock him out. No street cred in going to the ground. Its all about the knock out in the "hood" for lack of a better term.

He could have knocked the guy out by throwing him down, or doing a takedown and putting him to sleep in a variety of ways. Those methods would have had a higher chance to actually knock out his adversary.

however, if he wanted to build street cred as the baddest transit worker on the block, he could have just maintained the mounted position and do an old fashioned ground and pound.

Fists and feet don't hit harder than gravity and concrete.

 

[ballen0351]

He could have knocked the guy out by throwing him down, or doing a takedown and putting him to sleep in a variety of ways. Those methods would have had a higher chance to actually knock out his adversary.

Fists and feet don't hit harder than gravity and concrete.

Your right sorry I doubted you

 

[Dinkydoo]

Yes, for a variety of reasons. However, it IS dependent on the situation. If I'm fighting multiple opponents, I'd use something more akin to boxing and muay thai to stay on my feet and move around as much as possible. If I happen to get taken down, I'll use bjj to get back on my feet as quickly as possible. If I'm fighting some oversized wrestler roid freak, I'm using bjj. Overall though, the most humane and civilized way to dispatch someone is via bjj (or Judo). Putting someone to sleep or pinning them on the ground is better than gouging out their eyes, biting their neck, breaking their windpipe, ripping off their nuts, etc. Its also safer and more reliable.

Your ignorance shines through again. Kung Fu is not simply about using dirty striking techniques, pulling hair, biting...etc

We have many chin na techniques within our system that can be used to take down and control an opponent, as opposed to smashing through their joints.

Here is an example of what interestingly looks like a JJ practitioner using some of the techniques contained within the Seven Star Praying Mantis forms to takedown an opponent.

Here we have an example of some takedowns in the Six Harmonies Mantis system.

If I'm fighting ANYONE the ground is the absolute last place I want to be and if I end up there then I'll be getting back on my feet as soon as possible. Actively trying to follow an opponent to ground is going to end up getting you kicked in the head.

Boxing is mobile, and its quick strikes is pretty solid if you got a lot of guys coming at you. I wouldn't do kicks, because there's a chance that you could be taken down.

Example;

Northern and Southern praying mantis are really quick systems and in northern we use a 'aim high to strike low' chain theory to quickly open up and deal with opponents.

Chain Theory: Full speed demo at 4 minutes

Southern Mantis

Fast, mobile, efficient.

Sure, if properly trained, and removed of antiquated methods. One thing I dislike about TMAs is their insistence that their way is the best way because its "old". If I was instructing a TMA, I would teach all of my students how to box and how to wrestle. I would teach them how to jab, boxing footwork, MT clinch and knees, guillotine chokes, and how to do a single leg and double leg takedown. Why? Because they work, and they're likely to encounter that sort of thing in a fight. Why learn 25 hand strikes when you really only need 4? IMO, its a waste of time. But then again, I view nothing as sacred.

Which training methods do you consider antiquated?

We've already established that you don't have much understanding of true Kung Fu, therefore you're not in much of a position to make an informed judgement on styles that you know little about.

Boxing was developed for the ring, and its a great self defense tool. Personally, I think its the top stand-up MA, because its simple, scientific, mobile, and teaches you how to generate power with very little movement. You're starting to see a resurgence of boxing in MMA as the ground game is becoming neutralized due to so many people learning how to defend themselves from take downs.

In the end, I don't think it really matters where and why something was developed. All that matters is if it works or not. If I had the opportunity to learn Wing Chun or Boxing, I'd choose Boxing every time.

I'd choose Wing Chun every time although I still appreciate the usefulness of Western Boxing when it comes to self defence. I certainly wouldn't outright state that it wasn't practical if I only had a little experience at a below par gym.

I would say that Kung Fu has that issue more than any other branch of TMA. Its just too easy to spew out BS with Kung Fu and claim legitimacy. You can string along a student for years by saying that you're holding off the "secret knowledge" while you toss them into a purgatory of forms and drills. One of the things I like about Bjj is that everything is out in the open, and its pretty easy to tell who is spewing the ********. Mainly because of the competition circuit. If your school is pumping out bad students, its known almost instantly, because your guys are getting tapped out.

It's pretty easy to spot bad Kung Fu, if you know what you're looking for. In sorry you had a bad experience but you sound very, very bitter and you've allowed this experience to cloud your judgement. Let it go and open your mind to the possibility that your experience of Kung Fu wasn't representative of the whole family of styles that originate from China.

 

[Hanzou]

Draculino shows why ball grabbing and biting doesn't work from guard;

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...=/watch?v=fxZKZsqWdFw&feature=player_embedded

 

[Hanzou]

Double post.