MMA vs TMA

[Hanzou]

That was a purely face saving exersize, they gave Gene Labelle a seemingly impossible task of losing that much weight so that they could back out without appearing weak. They prided themselves on proving that a smaller man could easily beat a larger opponent using BJJ yet still imposed that condition. They also backed away from a challenge by Benny the Jet Urquidez.

I suppose. Again, that wasn't really my point. My point was to show that there are a variety of martial artists who have no problem proving the validity of their styles. Its sort of a tradition in the martial arts, and its pretty bizarre how TMAs in this day in age shy away from it because their art is "too dangerous".

I hate to break it too ya (not really) but BJJ uses that tactic all the time, "this is what you do against a striker", 'BJJ versus (insert style here)'. In my school we do not use boxers, wrestlers, and BJJ stylists as imaginary opponents in practice, we use imaginary opponents (it's called visualization) who attack with kicks, strikes, throws, takedowns etc. If there is an attack that is used more commonly when a new style becomes prominent, such as double leg takedowns etc. We train against individuals not styles.

Of course Bjj uses that tactic. If you can take down a boxer, then you can probably take down the average brawler. If you can survive a wrestler's headlock, you could probably survive a brawler's headlock. The benefit of modern arts like Bjj is that you attract people from a variety of styles who willingly incorporate their background into the art. So we have former wrestlers at my school, who are more than happy to show us how a wrestler would put you in a headlock, or how a wrestler would defend against a takedown. Arts like Bjj rapidly incorporate these abilities into the art, and it becomes stronger because of it. For example, Judo and Bjj took the double legged takedown from wrestling. Why? Because it works.

The Kiai master is a nut job, no one takes him seriously.

Do you feel the same about this guy?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Sparring at a martial arts club is quite a bit different than sparring in a full contact competition. In the latter, both parties are trying to win.

Granted, however sparring in a full contact competition is quite a bit different than fighting for your life and well being in the street, in the latter, the one attacking you is not trying to win, he is trying to injure you and put you out of action.

Its the closest thing to a street fight without actually being in a street fight.

In some respects, yes, but in others it is way off.

Its also the only way you can truly test your abilities against a fully resisting opponent.

Unless they are trying to do you serious physical harm, they are not "fully" resisting. The only way you can truly test this is in actually doing it in a real situation (the proof is in the pudding, not in making the pudding). They are fighting with a limited rule set that does not apply in the street, there is a referee who will be there to intervene when you get into too much trouble, there are targets that they are not allowed to attack and attacks they are not allowed to do so they are not trained to defend against them as much so they can only test SOME of their abilities.

Where did I say this was a bad thing? I'm just pointing out that most of us agree that if we're going to be fighting someone on the street, they're more than likely going to be some derivative of boxer, wrestler, or MMAer. Martial Athletes are viewed as dangerous opponents.

No it would more than likely be an untrained thug, they are far more common.

Let's just say that I've been around the block a few times.

Many of us have been around a different block.

Again, if my children were seeking a Martial Art for self defense, a TMA wouldn't be on the radar.

That is your personal choice, based on your ideas and experiences. If I had children and they wanted to learn self defence I would not consider a sport for them I would look towards the TMA I am in because I know of it's benefits are for self defence.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Sparring at a martial arts club is quite a bit different than sparring in a full contact competition. In the latter, both parties are trying to win. Its the closest thing to a street fight without actually being in a street fight. Its also the only way you can truly test your abilities against a fully resisting opponent.

What RTKDCMB said.

I think you missed my point. My video was showing a "sport style" being used in a self defense situation against a drunken person. It wasn't two martial artists squaring off against each other in a dojo.

I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to show me that, I realise that sport arts can be useful for self defence.

The point in the Wing Chun videos was to show you that your opinion of TMAs being rubbish when it comes to fighting is wrong. It might be based on a bad experience that you have had but you've allowed that experience to close your mind. You're walking around with your eyes closed protecting your prejudicial ideals.

However, I anxiously await the day when Wing Chun appears in MMA tournaments. I mean why wouldn't it? The hand movements and low kicks would fit MMA like a glove.

There's a good reason you'll never see it though.

Why do you think that is?

Let's just say that I've been around the block a few times. Being trained in martial arts has allowed me to experience many different styles of martial arts. I am thankful for that, because it has allowed me to cut through the BS of a lot of claims and fantasies. Again, if my children were seeking a Martial Art for self defense, a TMA wouldn't be on the radar.

For someone who's been around the block a few times you seem to know very little about TMAs other than they use Set Forms as a training tool.

One big thing that you've not even touched upon in this thread is sensitivity. If you know enough about TMAs to disregard them all as useless then you'll understand why some Kung Fu practitioners, say Wing Chun or Nothern Mantis, might find it difficult to use gloves in a fight - clue: its not simply about being able to grip your opponents wrist. Now on the street against an unskilled opponent you could probably get away with some well timed blocks and quick chain and hammer fist counters once your attacker has opened up, but against a skilled MAist (like an MMA guy) I definitely would not want to have my main weapons severely restricted by wearing gloves.

Of course, but his students were not credible martial artists when he swindled them. Fortunately he accepted a public challenge, and was exposed for the fraud he was.

If you're suggesting that this is representative of TMAs in general then your more blinkered than I thought.

 

[Hanzou]

Granted, however sparring in a full contact competition is quite a bit different than fighting for your life and well being in the street, in the latter, the one attacking you is not trying to win, he is trying to injure you and put you out of action.

No argument there. My point is that competition is closer to a street fight situation than sparring in a dojo. In the dojo you're there to learn, not to "win". In a competition, your mindset is different. You have the adrenaline dump, and you have an opponent is trying to defeat you. Nothing can fully prepare you for a street encounter, but competition comes closer to it than sparring in the dojo.

In some respects, yes, but in others it is way off.

Of course. However, its important to keep in mind that in a competition, you're going against someone who is equally trained. I thought I sucked as a blue belt in Bjj, because I was getting creamed by other blue belts and upper belts. It wasnt until I got into a situation against someone who had no grappling training did I realize how skilled I had become. Suddenly that choke that never worked against my peers was easy to apply.

Unless they are trying to do you serious physical harm, they are not "fully" resisting. The only way you can truly test this is in actually doing it in a real situation (the proof is in the pudding, not in making the pudding). They are fighting with a limited rule set that does not apply in the street, there is a referee who will be there to intervene when you get into too much trouble, there are targets that they are not allowed to attack and attacks they are not allowed to do so they are not trained to defend against them as much so they can only test SOME of their abilities.

I would say that if someone is trying to knock you out with fists, feet, knees, and elbows, they are trying to do serious physical harm to you. Watch an MMA bout where people are kneed to the face WITHOUT headgear. Its utterly horrendous to watch. Franklin vs Silva 2, or Tate vs Zingano are prime example. You can cause severe head and body damage with knees and elbows.

No it would more than likely be an untrained thug, they are far more common.

And untrained thugs usually go for a punch, or try to grapple you to the ground to perform a ground and pound.

Here's a vid that I thought was very interesting;

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81782173/

Though I respect this guys striking skills, if he had some grappling, he could taken this guy to the ground and subdued him, instead going into an all out brawl. Like the restaurant situation I posted above. Much more controlled, and much better for both parties involved.

That is your personal choice, based on your ideas and experiences. If I had children and they wanted to learn self defence I would not consider a sport for them I would look towards the TMA I am in because I know of it's benefits are for self defence.

I certainly respect that decision. Everyone has different experiences. :asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

I suppose. Again, that wasn't really my point. My point was to show that there are a variety of martial artists who have no problem proving the validity of their styles. Its sort of a tradition in the martial arts, and its pretty bizarre how TMAs in this day in age shy away from it because their art is "too dangerous".

That is because most TMA's are not as insecure and do not feel the need to constantly prove anything with meaningless contests. Competition styles are competitive by nature and self defence styles are defensive, agreeing to fight someone is not self defence. I refer you to the post I made about challenge matches (#128).

. For example, Judo and Bjj took the double legged takedown from wrestling. Why? Because it works.

It works in a sporting environment (for example, when they know they will not get hit in the back of the head/neck) but not a very smart thing to do in a self defence situation.There are too many things that can go wrong when you drop your head that low and restrict your field of vision, Any takedown that also puts you on the ground as well as your opponent limits your ability to flee or defend against other potential attackers.

Do you feel the same about this guy?

It's a bit hard to evaluate someone on the basis of one 2 minute video. He at least does not make outrageous claims. His technique did not appear to be very good and his choice was IMO overly complicated, you obviously picked the first not so good video you could find.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not quite sure why you felt the need to show me that, I realise that sport arts can be useful for self defence.

I showed you that to showcase how someone who is well versed in "sport bjj" can apply "sport MA" in a self defense situation. Compare that vid to this one;

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81782173/

Which one seems more in control? Which one seemed more skillful? Which one has the better resolution?

There was numerous times where the second fight could have ended with just a swift take down and an applied body lock or even a choke. Instead, we had two guys brawling it out, with no clear victor, and anger being generated from both sides. Meanwhile in the first video, the aggressor is clearly defeated and humbled. He comes in an apologizes for what he has done, and he marvels at Ryan Hall's abilities. Ryan subdued him with 2 basic bjj techniques.

The point in the Wing Chun videos was to show you that your opinion of TMAs being rubbish when it comes to fighting is wrong. It might be based on a bad experience that you have had but you've allowed that experience to close your mind. You're walking around with your eyes closed protecting your prejudicial ideals.

Well I don't know the background of those fighters. There are claims on youtube that the MT fighter is actually a student at that WC school. So I simply don't know. I am glad to see traditional martial artists test their abilities. I think that is an excellent way to add legitimacy to their styles and claims. Their forerunners did it, so can they.

Why do you think that is?

In my experience, hand trapping is pretty ineffective against a trained striker. This is also why I am skeptical about Aikido. Their trapping and wristlocks look phenomenal in practice, but I've never witnessed an Aikidoka reliably trap a boxer's punches. Let's face it; if it worked, we'd see it all over MMA. What fighter wouldn't use such awesome abilities to counter a punch?

For someone who's been around the block a few times you seem to know very little about TMAs other than they use Set Forms as a training tool.

One big thing that you've not even touched upon in this thread is sensitivity. If you know enough about TMAs to disregard them all as useless then you'll understand why some Kung Fu practitioners, say Wing Chun or Nothern Mantis, might find it difficult to use gloves in a fight - clue: its not simply about being able to grip your opponents wrist. Now on the street against an unskilled opponent you could probably get away with some well timed blocks and quick chain and hammer fist counters once your attacker has opened up, but against a skilled MAist (like an MMA guy) I definitely would not want to have my main weapons severely restricted by wearing gloves.

So basically if you practice Wing Chun or Praying Mantis, you better hope you don't get attacked when its cold outside?

If you're suggesting that this is representative of TMAs in general then your more blinkered than I thought.

Its definitely a common thread in the TMAs I've been around. Granted, your TMA may not be like that, but I've run across many that are.

 

[Hanzou]

That is because most TMA's are not as insecure and do not feel the need to constantly prove anything with meaningless contests. Competition styles are competitive by nature and self defence styles are defensive, agreeing to fight someone is not self defence. I refer you to the post I made about challenge matches (#128).

So you believe that the old TMA masters who openly challenged other arts or masters were insecure?

It works in a sporting environment (for example, when they know they will not get hit in the back of the head/neck) but not a very smart thing to do in a self defence situation.There are too many things that can go wrong when you drop your head that low and restrict your field of vision, Any takedown that also puts you on the ground as well as your opponent limits your ability to flee or defend against other potential attackers.

You mean like that restaurant vid where the guy did a double leg take down (while seated and the other guy was standing up in his face) to subdue a drunk?

If you missed it, here it is again at the 1:20 mark;

Notice his positioning at the end of the take down. He is now on top of the opponent, in complete control of his entire body. He can get up at any point.

It's a bit hard to evaluate someone on the basis of one 2 minute video. He at least does not make outrageous claims. His technique did not appear to be very good and his choice was IMO overly complicated, you obviously picked the first not so good video you could find.

Its not hard at all if you know what to look for. For starters, choreographed crap like that is ineffective, and insane to teach to people. When two people are assaulting you, there's no way in hell you're going to remember any of that. Also the idea that two assailants are going to attack you from a pre-arranged position is ridiculous.

Teaching people stuff like that and claiming that it will keep them alive is both dangerous and foolish.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I would say that if someone is trying to knock you out with fists, feet, knees, and elbows, they are trying to do serious physical harm to you. Watch an MMA bout where people are kneed to the face WITHOUT headgear. Its utterly horrendous to watch. Franklin vs Silva 2, or Tate vs Zingano are prime example. You can cause severe head and body damage with knees and elbows.

Of course you can do some serious damage with knees and elbows. Are the people in MMA bouts trying to stomp on your head when you are down?, Are they hitting you in the face with a glass? Are they still kicking and hitting you when you are unconscious? Are they ganging up on you or attacking you with a knife? If the answer is no to any of these then they are not trying to do serious physical harm to you. I am sure if you ask any MMA fighter before a match if they really intend to put their opponent in the hospital or put them out of action for a few months they would not honestly say they are.

And untrained thugs usually go for a punch, or try to grapple you to the ground to perform a ground and pound.

Standard things to teach the defence of in your average TMA.

Here's a vid that I thought was very interesting;

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81782173/

Though I respect this guys striking skills, if he had some grappling, he could taken this guy to the ground and subdued him, instead going into an all out brawl. Like the restaurant situation I posted above. Much more controlled, and much better for both parties involved.

I have seen that video before, it was a 30 second fight that lasted about 29 seconds too long because the security guard was not able to put him down efficiently.

Here's how it should be done;

Much more effective I think. And he was a Karate guy.

 

[Hanzou]

Of course you can do some serious damage with knees and elbows. Are the people in MMA bouts trying to stomp on your head when you are down?, Are they hitting you in the face with a glass? Are they still kicking and hitting you when you are unconscious? Are they ganging up on you or attacking you with a knife? If the answer is no to any of these then they are not trying to do serious physical harm to you. I am sure if you ask any MMA fighter before a match if they really intend to put their opponent in the hospital or put them out of action for a few months they would not honestly say they are.

Again, the argument was never that competitions are just like street fights. The argument you made is that people aren't trying to do serious physical damage to someone, which is false.

Lots of MMA fighters go to the hospital after their matches. That fits under my definition of someone doing serious physical damage to someone else.

Standard things to teach the defence of in your average TMA.

And its pretty tough to squeeze in when you have to do katas and forms with Okinawan or Chinese farm equipment.

I have seen that video before, it was a 30 second fight that lasted about 29 seconds too long because the security guard was not able to put him down efficiently.

Here's how it should be done;

Much more effective I think. And he was a Karate guy.

Looks more like a lucky punch. Even the karate guy looks surprised that that chump went down so quickly. Reminds me of when Rashad Evans knocked out Chuck Liddell. You hit that right spot at the right time, and everyone goes down. The thing is though that hitting that right spot doesn't happen often.

 

[ballen0351]

That security guard never intended to subdue that guy. He wanted to fight him not detain him. That's why he never even attempted to restrain him. Security guard squared off first and challenged the other guy to a fight.

 

[Dinkydoo]

I showed you that to showcase how someone who is well versed in "sport bjj" can apply "sport MA" in a self defense situation. Compare that vid to this one;

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81782173/

Which one seems more in control? Which one seemed more skillful? Which one has the better resolution?

There was numerous times where the second fight could have ended with just a swift take down and an applied body lock or even a choke. Instead, we had two guys brawling it out, with no clear victor, and anger being generated from both sides. Meanwhile in the first video, the aggressor is clearly defeated and humbled. He comes in an apologizes for what he has done, and he marvels at Ryan Hall's abilities. Ryan subdued him with 2 basic bjj techniques.

I agree that the first went a lot better, and was controlled. The police officer in the second clip fought like a boxer though so I guess that BJJ is better than boxing and Muay Thai for self defence.

Well I don't know the background of those fighters. There are claims on youtube that the MT fighter is actually a student at that WC school. So I simply don't know. I am glad to see traditional martial artists test their abilities. I think that is an excellent way to add legitimacy to their styles and claims. Their forerunners did it, so can they.

So you've changed your mind then. TMA can be useful in a fight....

In my experience, hand trapping is pretty ineffective against a trained striker. This is also why I am skeptical about Aikido. Their trapping and wristlocks look phenomenal in practice, but I've never witnessed an Aikidoka reliably trap a boxer's punches. Let's face it; if it worked, we'd see it all over MMA. What fighter wouldn't use such awesome abilities to counter a punch?

You're right about one thing, trying trap a quick front hand strike isn't wise. Outside of the ring I'm not so sure that front hand striking is as prevalent; any scuffles I was involved in as a teenager usually started with a big right hook and continued in a similar manner. I like front hand striking for a number of reasons but I wouldn't really expect an untrained person to use them.

Wing Chun was developed for self defence remember, not the ring.

So basically if you practice Wing Chun or Praying Mantis, you better hope you don't get attacked when its cold outside?

I would definitely have to alter my fighting approach against a trained opponent if I was wearing gloves, which is the point.

Its obvious you don't understand (which is fine) and you don't have much (or any) experience in a traditional Kung Fu system, but that means you aren't in a position to pass judgment on and develop an informed opinion about the art I practice - or most Kung Fu styles - never mind each and every TMA.

Emphasis mine.

Its definitely a common thread in the TMAs I've been around. Granted, your TMA may not be like that, but I've run across many that are.

Energy cultivation and what can seem like peculiar power generation (to someone who doesn't practice the art) is present within a lot of TMAs, but that is very different from claiming to have magical chi - which doesn't exist (although my girlfriend might say differently ). The first time I saw Taiji Mantis I thought "What the hell is that, how are they generating any force." because they use different body mechanics than the Mantis and other style I've trained in.

I hate the charlatans too; I've recently been involved in a YouTube disagreement with a Kung Fu 'teacher' teaching a new 'freestyle' form of Kung Fu in the UK who have basically stolen sets from Lau Gar (whose origin is a bit dodgy anyway) and decided to teach them in a "Tai Chi" style - which to him is slow and wavey movements. It looks ridiculous and it angers me that people are #1 paying to learn this and #2 might actually think that they can defend themselves with this sort of nonsense.

So we're maybe more similar than I'd like to think

 

[RTKDCMB]

So you believe that the old TMA masters who openly challenged other arts or masters were insecure?

Bit before my time, I don't know exactly what their motivations are, in any rate I was referring to those who like to post videos on YouTube.

You mean like that restaurant vid where the guy did a double leg take down (while seated and the other guy was standing up in his face) to subdue a drunk?

If you missed it, here it is again at the 1:20 mark;

Notice his positioning at the end of the take down. He is now on top of the opponent, in complete control of his entire body. He can get up at any point.

I did not say it could not work, I just said it is not smart. What if the drunk had a friend with a beer bottle?

Its not hard at all if you know what to look for. For starters, choreographed crap like that is ineffective, and insane to teach to people. When two people are assaulting you, there's no way in hell you're going to remember any of that. Also the idea that two assailants are going to attack you from a pre-arranged position is ridiculous.

Teaching people stuff like that and claiming that it will keep them alive is both dangerous and foolish.

You look at videos like that (that one was a bad example) and just think of it in terms of choreography, that's because you do not understand that it is just a different method of training that involves breaking down the defence into simpler motions under controlled conditions (fixing variables) which, after some training, you can modify to suit the situation. Its like learning the ideal gas law (PV = nRT), you first learn the simplified version, which is a broad definition, and then learn to take into acount such things like the mass and volume of individual gas molecules which can be applied to real gasses.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Again, the argument was never that competitions are just like street fights. The argument you made is that people aren't trying to do serious physical damage to someone, which is false.

Lots of MMA fighters go to the hospital after their matches. That fits under my definition of someone doing serious physical damage to someone else.

I guess we have different definitions of serious damage. A friend of mine was once attacked by 2 men, they smashed down his door beat him up, kicked him in the groin several times, threw him off the 2nd floor balcony and then went down to him and repeatedly stomped on his groin, that's trying to do serious harm.

And its pretty tough to squeeze in when you have to do katas and forms with Okinawan or Chinese farm equipment.

I have never used any type of farm implement.

Looks more like a lucky punch. Even the karate guy looks surprised that that chump went down so quickly.

It looked more like a knife hand strike to me,

he knew exactly what he was doing, he threw his hands up in the air because he was reacting to having to actually use his Karate whist filming a self defence video (irony).

 

[Hanzou]

That security guard never intended to subdue that guy. He wanted to fight him not detain him. That's why he never even attempted to restrain him. Security guard squared off first and challenged the other guy to a fight.

If the security guard had made that his intention, the fight would have went a lot smoother for him, and would have ended a lot faster.

 

[Hanzou]

I agree that the first went a lot better, and was controlled. The police officer in the second clip fought like a boxer though so I guess that BJJ is better than boxing and Muay Thai for self defence.

Yes, for a variety of reasons. However, it IS dependent on the situation. If I'm fighting multiple opponents, I'd use something more akin to boxing and muay thai to stay on my feet and move around as much as possible. If I happen to get taken down, I'll use bjj to get back on my feet as quickly as possible. If I'm fighting some oversized wrestler roid freak, I'm using bjj. Overall though, the most humane and civilized way to dispatch someone is via bjj (or Judo). Putting someone to sleep or pinning them on the ground is better than gouging out their eyes, biting their neck, breaking their windpipe, ripping off their nuts, etc. Its also safer and more reliable.

Boxing is mobile, and its quick strikes is pretty solid if you got a lot of guys coming at you. I wouldn't do kicks, because there's a chance that you could be taken down.

Example;

So you've changed your mind then. TMA can be useful in a fight....

Sure, if properly trained, and removed of antiquated methods. One thing I dislike about TMAs is their insistence that their way is the best way because its "old". If I was instructing a TMA, I would teach all of my students how to box and how to wrestle. I would teach them how to jab, boxing footwork, MT clinch and knees, guillotine chokes, and how to do a single leg and double leg takedown. Why? Because they work, and they're likely to encounter that sort of thing in a fight. Why learn 25 hand strikes when you really only need 4? IMO, its a waste of time. But then again, I view nothing as sacred.

You're right about one thing, trying trap a quick front hand strike isn't wise. Outside of the ring I'm not so sure that front hand striking is as prevalent; any scuffles I was involved in as a teenager usually started with a big right hook and continued in a similar manner. I like front hand striking for a number of reasons but I wouldn't really expect an untrained person to use them.

Wing Chun was developed for self defence remember, not the ring.

Boxing was developed for the ring, and its a great self defense tool. Personally, I think its the top stand-up MA, because its simple, scientific, mobile, and teaches you how to generate power with very little movement. You're starting to see a resurgence of boxing in MMA as the ground game is becoming neutralized due to so many people learning how to defend themselves from take downs.

In the end, I don't think it really matters where and why something was developed. All that matters is if it works or not. If I had the opportunity to learn Wing Chun or Boxing, I'd choose Boxing every time.

Its obvious you don't understand (which is fine) and you don't have much (or any) experience in a traditional Kung Fu system, but that means you aren't in a position to pass judgment on and develop an informed opinion about the art I practice - or most Kung Fu styles - never mind each and every TMA.

Okay, but I do have experience in a Kung Fu system that claimed to be traditional.

Unfortunately, my experiences color my opinions. Its just the way it is. When I first walked into a bjj school, I wanted to test those guys out and see what they were made of. A white belt stomped me into the ground. A purple belt made me his girlfriend for several minutes. I didn't even want to see what the instructor was going to do to me. That's when I joined bjj.

Energy cultivation and what can seem like peculiar power generation (to someone who doesn't practice the art) is present within a lot of TMAs, but that is very different from claiming to have magical chi - which doesn't exist (although my girlfriend might say differently ). The first time I saw Taiji Mantis I thought "What the hell is that, how are they generating any force." because they use different body mechanics than the Mantis and other style I've trained in.

I hate the charlatans too; I've recently been involved in a YouTube disagreement with a Kung Fu 'teacher' teaching a new 'freestyle' form of Kung Fu in the UK who have basically stolen sets from Lau Gar (whose origin is a bit dodgy anyway) and decided to teach them in a "Tai Chi" style - which to him is slow and wavey movements. It looks ridiculous and it angers me that people are #1 paying to learn this and #2 might actually think that they can defend themselves with this sort of nonsense.

So we're maybe more similar than I'd like to think

I would say that Kung Fu has that issue more than any other branch of TMA. Its just too easy to spew out BS with Kung Fu and claim legitimacy. You can string along a student for years by saying that you're holding off the "secret knowledge" while you toss them into a purgatory of forms and drills. One of the things I like about Bjj is that everything is out in the open, and its pretty easy to tell who is spewing the ********. Mainly because of the competition circuit. If your school is pumping out bad students, its known almost instantly, because your guys are getting tapped out.

 

[jks9199]

Sparring at a martial arts club is quite a bit different than sparring in a full contact competition. In the latter, both parties are trying to win. Its the closest thing to a street fight without actually being in a street fight. Its also the only way you can truly test your abilities against a fully resisting opponent.

No, it's not the closest thing to a street fight. In fact, in a lot of ways, it's NOTHING like a street fight. Maybe it bears resemblance to a "friendly bar fight." But that's it. This is the mistake you're locked on -- that violence and fighting are the same. Nor is it the "only way you can truly test your abilities..." Properly planned and set up scenario training is MUCH closer to reality.

Sparring and competitive matches have useful elements for preparing for real fighting, but so do many other things. Truthfully, you want to become a great street fighter, the process is simple, and you don't need a dojo or gym. Just a good lawyer, and a better doc, because the best way to become the best monster you can be is to go out there, and get in fights. If you survive, you'll become a great street fighter. Of course, you may find yourself honing your skills in the Gray Bar Hotel, too...

 

[Hanzou]

Bit before my time, I don't know exactly what their motivations are, in any rate I was referring to those who like to post videos on YouTube.

Their motivation was to spread their art, and show their art's validity. When Jigaro Kano opened up his first Judo school, he would get challenges from other Juijitsu schools constantly. That's just how things were done back in the day.

I did not say it could not work, I just said it is not smart. What if the drunk had a friend with a beer bottle?

Then you wouldn't do that particular move. You would assess the situation and make adjustments. In that situation shown in the vid, it was very smart, because it restrained the drunk.

You look at videos like that (that one was a bad example) and just think of it in terms of choreography, that's because you do not understand that it is just a different method of training that involves breaking down the defence into simpler motions under controlled conditions (fixing variables) which, after some training, you can modify to suit the situation. Its like learning the ideal gas law (PV = nRT), you first learn the simplified version, which is a broad definition, and then learn to take into acount such things like the mass and volume of individual gas molecules which can be applied to real gasses.

I'm sorry, but I simply disagree. Pre-arranged crap like that is a bad way to teach someone how to defend themselves. Even at full speed, that set up looked sloppy and pathetic. Even worse, having the targets at pre-determined starting points is even worse. Its far better to teach general mechanics of a move, and how to apply them in different situations. For example,the standard Judo/Bjj armbar can be applied from a variety of angles and situations. I can throw someone down and apply it. I can apply it from my back. I can apply it if I'm top of someone. I can apply it if I'm on their back. I could even apply it in a flying arm bar if I was that flexible (and that crazy). Since I can do that one movement in so many ways, it makes it easy for my mind to remember the technique. Rhonda Rousey is a prime example of this phenomenon, because she defeats ALL of her opponents with the arm bar,

 

[Hanzou]

I guess we have different definitions of serious damage. A friend of mine was once attacked by 2 men, they smashed down his door beat him up, kicked him in the groin several times, threw him off the 2nd floor balcony and then went down to him and repeatedly stomped on his groin, that's trying to do serious harm.

That's an example of someone trying to kill someone else. Not every street fight involves someone trying to kill the other person. Some people just want to beat the crap out of you.

In any case, any situation where you need immediate medical attention, I would define as serious physical damage. I consider [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Georgia, sans-serif]Joe Theisman's football injury to be serious physical damage. Or that poor kid who went up for a layup and landed wrong on his leg and shattered his leg.[/FONT]

I have never used any type of farm implement.

Sais, Nunchuks, and Kamas are originally all farm tools.

It looked more like a knife hand strike to me, he knew exactly what he was doing, he threw his hands up in the air because he was reacting to having to actually use his Karate whist filming a self defence video (irony).

I'm sure he knows how to throw a knife hand. My issue is with the result. He got the guy at exactly the right angle, at exactly the right time, hence the knockout blow. We both know that such a result is pretty rare, because if it wasn't, EVERYONE would be learning knife hands to instantly knock out people. That said, that gentleman did a good thing, and he should be applauded for knocking that scumbag to the ground.

 

[ballen0351]

If the security guard had made that his intention, the fight would have went a lot smoother for him, and would have ended a lot faster.

How do you know how smooth the fight would have been? Your an expert on the fighting style of the Memphis Area Metro Transit Authority ? do you know anything about the guy to be able to make a statement on how the fight would go or how smooth it would be? The video shows him square up to fight and the other guy said in the clip he told him he wanted to fight. Never once did he even attempt to detain the suspect. Police 101 is to get people on the ground to get then cuffed. He never made a single attempt.

 

[Koshiki]

In any case, any situation where you need immediate medical attention, I would define as serious physical damage. I consider Joe Theisman's football injury to be serious physical damage.

...

Sais, Nunchuks, and Kamas are originally all farm tools.

MMA has been widely publicized, by media and by MMA reps, as being LESS dangerous than many other rough sports, like hockey, football... A super-quick internet search should make that pretty clear. Also, as I recall from being reprimanded, elbow/knee strikes to the head are generally only allowed in pro MMA, yes? So, it's not like the average MMA joe is going around getting kneed in the face every Saturday open mat? Maybe it's different in Maine, but...

Also, since you seem to know enough of all TMAs to dismiss them as a group, here's a brief history lesson.

1. Sai are ancient, and have only EVER been recorded as being used as weapons, originating in India, I believe. As i recall, they were most likely the Old-School Indian equivalent of a cops night stick.

2. Nunchuku, (Not "nunchucks/numchucks" unless it's ninja turtles, or something, please!) Were not Okinawan farm tools, but rather more of a whip utilized by the Okinawan Nobility to beat the daylights out of the peasantry. They're also not really traditional. Bruce Lee came along and suddenly people made up a whole bunch of flashy Nunchaku tournament forms.

3. Kama. Finally. HERE, you have hit upon the farm implement. Kudos.

4, 5, 6. Tonfa, Bo, and Stick, other common martial arts weapons, are ALSO, not derived from farm implements... The wide variety of Chinese weapons are not generally farm implements either, although I'm not discounting the possibility, there are a LOOOT of weapons in "kung fu."

Then you wouldn't do that particular move. You would assess the situation and make adjustments. In that situation shown in the vid, it was very smart, because it restrained the drunk.

Since I can do that one movement in so many ways, it makes it easy for my mind to remember the technique. Rhonda Rousey is a prime example of this phenomenon, because she defeats ALL of her opponents with the arm bar,

The person who can, in the split second of the moment, scan the entire room and determine that NONE of the people are friendly enough with the aggressor to come to their aid with the proverbial beer bottle, choose which technique to perform, and then perform it with good results is, I might suppose, of such preternatural skill and ability to be above the need for learning ANY fighting style. That sort of awareness, speed, and dexterity should be more than enough to keep you safe, you super-ninja, you.

Also, as Mr. Hanzou has mentioned time and again, in the heat of the moment, you don't have time to decide which technique to perform, which is why learning so many is just silly. You have to drill one or two so that they come without thinking, all else is wasted time. Apparently. I would assume that applies to this situation too, yes? So, If I won't be able to react with a decision to palm strike rather than punch, perhaps the average MMA fellow wouldn't be able to react with the decision to grapple or stand? Not my views, just asking about the ones I've seen stated...

Yes, for a variety of reasons. However, it IS dependent on the situation. If I'm fighting multiple opponents, I'd use something more akin to boxing and muay thai to stay on my feet and move around as much as possible. If I happen to get taken down, I'll use bjj to get back on my feet as quickly as possible. If I'm fighting some oversized wrestler roid freak, I'm using bjj.

I have a coworker who recently informed me that he wants to learn Shotokan and Systema, so that he can use the power of Shotokan until he begins to tire, and then switch to Systema to use the force of the dead weight of his body until he gets his stamina back. In the course of the fight, that is. Not relation, just random association I thought I would share.

Boxing is mobile, and its quick strikes is pretty solid if you got a lot of guys coming at you. I wouldn't do kicks, because there's a chance that you could be taken down.

There's also a chance that being trained to hit skulls with padded gloves is likely to get your hand smunched on a skull, when the gloves come off. A broken hand/wrist can be pretty hampering in a "real street fight", so I hear. It might not be common, but it's common enough to be a worry. Probably shouldn't punch OR kick then I suppose. Although, with a good ground game, it'sounds like that's the place to be in a fight, so maybe kicks are a good way to get taken down, and thus take it to the ground? It's also not that common to be taken down while stomp-kicking a knee, perhaps, thinks I...

Sure, if properly trained, and removed of antiquated methods.

Which is exactly how most of us like our TMAs, I do believe. I'm assuming this conversation is "well-trained MMA vs well-trained TMA," not "well-trained MMA vs after-school program TMA with free ice-cream," isn't it? Does that mean we're all in agreement? TMAs generally work well if the practitioner learns and trains well, and not otherwise, exactly as does MMA?

One thing I dislike about TMAs is their insistence that their way is the best way because its "old".

I would dislike that too, if I had ever met a TMA school that thought that way. I haven't yet though, so I still like TMAs, in general.

If I was instructing a TMA, I would teach all of my students how to box and how to wrestle. I would teach them how to jab, boxing footwork, MT clinch and knees, guillotine chokes, and how to do a single leg and double leg takedown.

Pretty sure the average TMA has some sort of jab, a hook, a cross, and an uppercut. Pretty sure the average TMA does NOT fight out of a stationary traditional stance. No one (I hope!) has ever advocated that... My school actively drills no strikes/contact, pure footwork "sparring." All you do is move your stance effectively, based on the other person's. Can you name a TMA that doesn't have a choke or two in it's repertoire? Unlikely. You keep mentioning that we train to defend against all these techniques, and we do! To defend against them, you first have to learn to use them, however... The Muay Thai clinch is not some close kept secret methodology, I think the average TMA school probably plays around with various ways to pull your opponent in tight and keep them there, albeit probably doing something a little more efficient than trading side-knees to the body. As far as single/double leg takedowns... TMAs do love their takedowns, but they tend to avoid the ones that get you a nice bunch of dropping elbows to the cerebral cortex because, in a self-defense art, those are, ya know, permitted...

Why? Because they work, and they're likely to encounter that sort of thing in a fight. Why learn 25 hand strikes when you really only need 4? IMO, its a waste of time. But then again, I view nothing as sacred.

Because, without knuckle padding, four punches doesn't really cut it for those of us who want to protect our bodies AND our hands. A punch to the skull can be a pretty bad idea. Have you ever sparred with the full-contact that you love MMA for, and done it WITHOUT gloves? I bet you either started pulling your head shots, or developed some pretty painful wrists pretty quickly. Throat might be a good target for a strike, but it's hard to get a fist in under the chin... Nose/mouth is a great target, but it will almost certainly open your knuckles. The stretched, thin skin of the knuckles splits easily, and the stretching causes it to pull/suck whatever is on the knuckle back into the cut when the hand is opened. Probably a good time to get your blood tested, it would suck to win the fight and contract HIV or VHF...

If I had the opportunity to learn Wing Chun or Boxing, I'd choose Boxing every time.

I've taken boxing, but, as I had already become reasonably familiar with the movements in TMA, I found it frustrating to repeatedly do something that worked, and be told that it was not allowed. Yes, the boxing was fun. Yes, it was good striking training. Yes, it would make some decent self-defense training on it's own. But it's not the be all and end all. Neither is Win Chun, but I probably got a good deal more practical striking defense out of a one-hour class on arm contact and sensitivity with some Win Chun guys about five years ago, than I did out of 5-6 months of boxing. They're both great to train, I am sure.

Okay, but I do have experience in a Kung Fu system that claimed to be traditional.

There are probably over a hundred "Kung Fu" systems out there. Was this Tai Shing? Shaolin Fist? Win Chun? Baguazhang? They are all incredibly different. Even supposing you were at a good traditional school, unlikely if they just taught generic "kung fu," and you managed to learn and understand everything, it doesn't mean you experienced anything of the other many many martial arts out there known as "kung fu."

Unfortunately, my experiences color my opinions. Its just the way it is. When I first walked into a bjj school, I wanted to test those guys out and see what they were made of. A white belt stomped me into the ground. A purple belt made me his girlfriend for several minutes. I didn't even want to see what the instructor was going to do to me. That's when I joined bjj.

My experience with the average martial arts schools is that those who have been training in it, even for a few months, can usually outperform those who have not trained at all, when sparring in the context of the style...

I would say that Kung Fu has that issue more than any other branch of TMA. Its just too easy to spew out BS with Kung Fu and claim legitimacy.

...So, you're arguing that, because some people know from nothing and call it "kung fu," (Which means nothing, again!), that the actual variety of martial arts which really ARE kung fu are also bad? I bet I can find you a couch potato who watches the UFC and claims he is a MMA fighter, but knows nothing. That doesn't change the fact that MMA is a highly effective and very demanding sport.

Of course Bjj uses that tactic. If you can take down a boxer, then you can probably take down the average brawler. If you can survive a wrestler's headlock, you could probably survive a brawler's headlock. The benefit of modern arts like Bjj is that you attract people from a variety of styles who willingly incorporate their background into the art. So we have former wrestlers at my school, who are more than happy to show us how a wrestler would put you in a headlock, or how a wrestler would defend against a takedown.

Weren't you just criticizing TMAs because they have studied, learned and taught defenses against wrestling techniques and boxing strikes? How is TMA doing this different from BJJ? (Incidentally, isn't BJJ around a century old? Getting dangerously close to being "traditional", that...)

Arts like Bjj rapidly incorporate these abilities into the art, and it becomes stronger because of it. For example, Judo and Bjj took the double legged takedown from wrestling. Why? Because it works.

It works great. It also fuses your motion with that of the opponent, removes your ability to see their arms, and exposes the base of the cranium and cerebral cortex to some VERY powerful (banned in MMA for that reason) dropping elbows. Which can kill or paralyze you. Which again, is why a sport martial art disavows their use. Dead and maimed competitors are not exactly a selling point...

Do you feel the same about this guy?

Yes that was terrible. He had poor balance, poor technique, poor control, and mimed smashing his knuckles of the sturdiest bone in the human body... Was that Shaloin Kempo Karate? Not exactly a traditional art; it's what, half as old as BJJ? Not sure how that's relevant. Especially since Kajunkenbo and SKK are often cited as some of the primary attempts at Mixed Martial Arts.

He is a fraud and any credible Martial Artist would recognise that.

He is a fraud, has nothing to do with Traditional Martial Arts, and any half-conscious, sensible PERSON would recognize that! Really, bringing something like that into the conversation is about as relevant as saying, "Hey, scuba-divers can be around sharks, which are dangerous, and THEY don't practice Traditional Martial Arts!" The no-touch super-power thing is a Martial Arts movie convention. I challenge anyone to find the traditional style of martial arts that teaches you to take down opponents with magic wavey-no-youchy hands.