McDojo/McDojang and all other names
- Thread starter Stuey
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KELLYG
2nd Black Belt
Stupid question number 9,876. Can a school be considered a McDojo and still teach quality Martial Ats?
I would say that any school that has over 150 students and is someones business is considered a mcdojo by someone. So in the end why worry about it?
McDonalds have incredibly good quality control (a Big Mac from 2 different cities will be exactly the same) and do so for a low price. They produce things quickly, efficiently and with a low profit margin, making up for it in quantity.
Apply those traits to martial arts and a lot of people would call that the idea system :lol:
A high quality restaurant is expensive, doesn't follow any industry wide recipe standards, the chefs do things their own way. They try to push drinks, appetizers and deserts on you at high mark up, and you are expected to tip. Which of course are some of the traits being listed as "bad"...
"McDojo" basically comes down to "Schools that do things 'I' don't like"
Apply those traits to martial arts and a lot of people would call that the idea system :lol:
A high quality restaurant is expensive, doesn't follow any industry wide recipe standards, the chefs do things their own way. They try to push drinks, appetizers and deserts on you at high mark up, and you are expected to tip. Which of course are some of the traits being listed as "bad"...
"McDojo" basically comes down to "Schools that do things 'I' don't like"
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Depends on who you ask, but I'd say yes. It's just that you're likely paying more for it than it's worth (although that's relative) and there's an emphasis on profit in the school.
suicide
Black Belt
i bet a bunch of you guys here - if you had the opportunity would start your own mcdojo ! in a way mcdojos are needed they filter out the suckers in the game :wavey:
My school is interested in making money. We charge for testing. There's no set time for the testing, but few people ever fail, because we don't send them up until we're sure they can pass. We have seminars. They aren't cheap, but they also aren't mandatory. We have a lot of gear available for purchase. Some of it is mandatory for certain events (like sparring), and most of it is not.
We also have 190+ locations across the country.
In many definitions, my dojo is a McDojo. But frankly, I won't accept the titlle untill the martial arts culture can actually make up its mind on what a McDojo is. A lot of what some people call McDojo I would call Bullshido.
As for the quality of my instruction, come find out for yourself.
We also have 190+ locations across the country.
In many definitions, my dojo is a McDojo. But frankly, I won't accept the titlle untill the martial arts culture can actually make up its mind on what a McDojo is. A lot of what some people call McDojo I would call Bullshido.
As for the quality of my instruction, come find out for yourself.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
do you believe you are getting quality instruction?
are you convinced that what you are being taught is useful and realistic for the purpose, i.e. self defense or competition, or whatever your interests may be?
Are you convinced that you are being taught and trained in a way that is realistic and gives you useful skills and a good understanding of what you are doing?
Are you comfortable with the financial demands required to train in the school?
I think these are the most important issues.
You are in a kenpo lineage, correct?
I think most kenpo lineages can be seen as a McDojo, if you really want to. Lots of them, spread out all over the place, headed up by a certain grandmaster. For some of them, money and profit are big issues. Some of them sell all kinds of videos to anyone willing to part with their money. These arent' limited to their own students, but rather are a business venture designed to sell the art and their empire as widely as possible. It's very profit-driven.
I train in Tracys kenpo, and they boasted quite a large number of schools under their franchise at one time. The franchise has been discontinued, but a lot of schools still teach the Tracy method. Not all instructors are very good, however. Some probably should not be teaching at all. Others are outstanding. I think that's the bottom line. Some teachers are great, and would be no matter what system they taught. If you are training under one of these folks, you are lucky and don't worry about it. If not, you might consider it a McDojo and look for something else.
shaolin-warrior
White Belt
I own an independent Kempo school, and teach my art with passion. Im no Nick Cerio or Ed Parker or Steve DaMasco, but I make a profit. I Charge my students for testing, a $45.00 fee. Trophy, belt, and a diploma in a document frame. My time is worth a fee
no one I know goes to work for free, I dont give a hoot how much you like your job. I have overhead and it has to be met. I also run seminars and sell products, but one thing I dont sell my students or their parents are magic beans. I also offer scholarships to kids who do well in school but cant afford instruction. I give warriors a military discount for their past service to our country
..20%, and for $60 a month I throw in 6 training days for you to choose from, come to as many classes as you want. Two open dojo classes for students to work their material, and a gym membership to our gym. I like to think that they get their moneys worth, and after only being open for 1 year, I have about 40 students and only lost one. How much you charge and what you charge is a business decision, but your prices need to reflect what you are offering. McDojos have a high rate of student turnover; people quit things because they fail to see the value in it. If you have a good retention rate and a steady growth rate in this economy, I dont care what litmus test you are using, youre no McDojo
youre just doing it better than someone else.
Well, all that sounds good, but it still sounds like no one can agree on what a McDojo is. Some people are saying that means it's commercial. Some people are saying it's commercial and low-calibre. Some are saying its commercial and fraudulent.
These are very different statements.
These are very different statements.
People will call your school a Mcdojo if they don'e agree with you no matter if you explain yourself or not. It is a term that get thrown around allot usually by people who have a axe to grind. Dan Sulivan is not one of those people his posts are always thought out. Stevebjj also has a reasoned approach.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
yup.
the term means different things to different people, depending on what they are looking for and depending on what their experiences have been.
Look at your own situation, consider the issues, and decide if you are happy with what you are doing.
Nagging suspicions? Go visit some other schools and see how they are doing things. A different perspective will help you figure it out. Maybe you've got the best thing going in your neck of the woods. Maybe not. Don't be afraid to find out.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
How about if your McSensei requires you to do a McKata for your McBelts and the highest rank is a black belt and 8 golden arches. Also if any of your high ranking students or teachers look like these guys
And the founder of your system looks like this
And the founder of your system looks like this
Cirdan
Senior Master
I don`t know Xue.. the first thing I learned in the Dojo was never to underestimate anyone based on how they look. Those guys could be really deadly for all we know
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Could be, lord knows the food they sell is iratesku
iratesku
Cirdan
Senior Master
Could be, lord knows the food they sell is
Hmm..poison. They must be Ninjas of the Black Dragon Society! Shoulda known, same business model as a certain gentleman named Ashida.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
ap Oweyn
Brown Belt
Personally, I think the term(s) is kinda useless, precisely because it has been stretched to mean "any school the priorities of which don't match my own." I think, if anything, you could identify some central themes about business practices. Charging you steep tuition, testing fees, mandatory seminars, etc. But, as people have pointed out, that doesn't guarantee low-quality instruction.
Which is kinda ironic, if you think about it. McDojos, then, potentially offer very expensive quality instruction. Where the actual McDonald's franchise from which they draw their name offers very inexpensive food of low quality. The whole thing is misnamed.
Stuart
Which is kinda ironic, if you think about it. McDojos, then, potentially offer very expensive quality instruction. Where the actual McDonald's franchise from which they draw their name offers very inexpensive food of low quality. The whole thing is misnamed.
Stuart
TheStudent
Yellow Belt
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I tried to offer a definition for a McDojo once before, but someone pointed out a few flaws. So I'll try again here.
Psychiatrists do not identify mental disorders with a solid hard and fast rule. they have a set of descriptions symptomatic of the problem (any one of which might apply to any person on earth). Each symptom is not an automatic bad thing. it is the number and level of each that determines if something is a problem/disorder or not. With that perspective, realize that many of the things on this list are not necessarily bad. It is the number of "symptoms", degree of the symptoms, and the lack of other counteracting/beneficial agents.
1. Monthly fees higher than the average for the school's area.
2. Fee-based tests that occur frequently.
3. An excessive number of belts or levels, each of which require #2.
4. A club or membership (for a higher fee) which increases speed towards Black Belt.
5. Frequent fee-based seminars.
6. Potential customers are given high-pressure or intensive marketing pitches similar to time-share or MLM events.
7. Multiple arts being taught within the school.
8. A franchise-based system with a focus on business ownership and marketing.
9. Excessive products for costs higher than available outside the school.
10. activities within the school require all equipment to be purchased through the school.
11. long-term, High-level students who execute the basics with the same level of ability and newer, low-level students.
I used to include a sensei who looked like Danial LaRusso, but I was rightly reminded that would qualify as Bullshido.
I would judge a mcDojo as any school that has 8+ symptoms on the list or 5 at an excessive level.
Any one of these might potentially be a perfectly acceptable practice if there is a justifiable reason for it. Allowing equipment to be used only if purchased from the school prevents low quality equipment from damaging the school or a student. An excessively high number of belts might be a product of a method designed to motivate children, who need frequent rewards (I feel this is a byproduct of our screwed-up school system, but thats another topic). the fees for each test might be perfectly acceptable if the monthly membership was low enough because it was designed with the tests in mind. Or, the monthly fees might be excessive due to the amount of included benefits (uniform, monthly newsletter, quarterly training video, etc.) FOR THE SINGLE PRICE.
So nothing on that list is completely unacceptable. It is the quantity and excessiveness that would "diagnose" a McDojo as compared to a MA business.
How does that sound?
Psychiatrists do not identify mental disorders with a solid hard and fast rule. they have a set of descriptions symptomatic of the problem (any one of which might apply to any person on earth). Each symptom is not an automatic bad thing. it is the number and level of each that determines if something is a problem/disorder or not. With that perspective, realize that many of the things on this list are not necessarily bad. It is the number of "symptoms", degree of the symptoms, and the lack of other counteracting/beneficial agents.
1. Monthly fees higher than the average for the school's area.
2. Fee-based tests that occur frequently.
3. An excessive number of belts or levels, each of which require #2.
4. A club or membership (for a higher fee) which increases speed towards Black Belt.
5. Frequent fee-based seminars.
6. Potential customers are given high-pressure or intensive marketing pitches similar to time-share or MLM events.
7. Multiple arts being taught within the school.
8. A franchise-based system with a focus on business ownership and marketing.
9. Excessive products for costs higher than available outside the school.
10. activities within the school require all equipment to be purchased through the school.
11. long-term, High-level students who execute the basics with the same level of ability and newer, low-level students.
I used to include a sensei who looked like Danial LaRusso, but I was rightly reminded that would qualify as Bullshido.
I would judge a mcDojo as any school that has 8+ symptoms on the list or 5 at an excessive level.
Any one of these might potentially be a perfectly acceptable practice if there is a justifiable reason for it. Allowing equipment to be used only if purchased from the school prevents low quality equipment from damaging the school or a student. An excessively high number of belts might be a product of a method designed to motivate children, who need frequent rewards (I feel this is a byproduct of our screwed-up school system, but thats another topic). the fees for each test might be perfectly acceptable if the monthly membership was low enough because it was designed with the tests in mind. Or, the monthly fees might be excessive due to the amount of included benefits (uniform, monthly newsletter, quarterly training video, etc.) FOR THE SINGLE PRICE.
So nothing on that list is completely unacceptable. It is the quantity and excessiveness that would "diagnose" a McDojo as compared to a MA business.
How does that sound?
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
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I hate this term though there are plenty of schools (I won't say dojo / dojang in this case) that are out for nothing but the money. But not all commericial schools are like that, some do it for an attempt at a living but some of us do it honestly and try to at least break even.
Here are some facts about my dojo:
* $85 a month you can train 4 times a week (average in the area $125 - $150 for 2 45 minute classes max) our classes 8 yrs and up are 1.5 hours
* We set aside the first saturday of every month to allow those that would qualify for rank testing to do it but if no one is ready than no one tests we don't allow it. We have still had people fail normally because they insisted on testing. However though we should we do not charge the testing fee again.
* We do charge for testing $20 - $25 for kyu ranks $200 for dan ranks (then buy them a embroidered shureido black belt and have a party after the test) end result no money left after everything is covered.
* Uniforms are given for FREE when they pay their first months tuition
* No upgrade programs
* No multi colored gi's
* 10 kyu level ranking system
I have a friend who offers multiple programs in her dojo. She teaches Isshin Ryu and Kobudo separately and has separate ranking for each. Her Isshin ryu students are able to get their rank certificates from Okinawa for a very small processing fee. Her kung fu / tai chi program is taught by a completely separate instructor.
So simple fact is not all schools in commericial locations are bad or teach bad martial arts. But many just group all commericial schools into the "McDojo" group. Some of us still teach without raking people over the coals.
Now their are schools that are no touch schools but they sell students hundreds of dollars of gear, charge unreasonable testing fees, testing is done for everyone every 6 weeks or so with guaranteed promotions, high priced upgrade programs, year long or longer committments and so on and so forth. Now that right there folks is what I consider a "belt factory". Am I a little bitter about this whole topic, you better believe it.
Here are some facts about my dojo:
* $85 a month you can train 4 times a week (average in the area $125 - $150 for 2 45 minute classes max) our classes 8 yrs and up are 1.5 hours
* We set aside the first saturday of every month to allow those that would qualify for rank testing to do it but if no one is ready than no one tests we don't allow it. We have still had people fail normally because they insisted on testing. However though we should we do not charge the testing fee again.
* We do charge for testing $20 - $25 for kyu ranks $200 for dan ranks (then buy them a embroidered shureido black belt and have a party after the test) end result no money left after everything is covered.
* Uniforms are given for FREE when they pay their first months tuition
* No upgrade programs
* No multi colored gi's
* 10 kyu level ranking system
I have a friend who offers multiple programs in her dojo. She teaches Isshin Ryu and Kobudo separately and has separate ranking for each. Her Isshin ryu students are able to get their rank certificates from Okinawa for a very small processing fee. Her kung fu / tai chi program is taught by a completely separate instructor.
So simple fact is not all schools in commericial locations are bad or teach bad martial arts. But many just group all commericial schools into the "McDojo" group. Some of us still teach without raking people over the coals.
Now their are schools that are no touch schools but they sell students hundreds of dollars of gear, charge unreasonable testing fees, testing is done for everyone every 6 weeks or so with guaranteed promotions, high priced upgrade programs, year long or longer committments and so on and so forth. Now that right there folks is what I consider a "belt factory". Am I a little bitter about this whole topic, you better believe it.
