In Defense of the McDojo

[terryl965]

Bill I can only answer for myself, I choose to teach the moral aspect along with the Art and sport side of TKD. This is due two fold the first being a parent of three boys I wanted it to be as much in there life as possible and the other is because of my professional choice of being a school teacher. If I can help some of our youth to understand that having proper manners and respect is always the best possible solution for a better and more productive life, than I choose to do it. Now with that being said there is a certain level of respect one must have to be in a good Martial Art school and this is mainly proper ediquet(mis-spelled I know) to know when to speak and how to speak to the instructor of said school. I hope that helps a little, I know it really does not answer everything but you can see why I choose to have it be a part of my school.:asian:

 

[Steve]

If you're teaching baseball, you teach baseball. Not ethics, morals, or other life-development skills that have nothing to do with baseball.

If you're teaching golf, same thing.

Firearms instructors teach firearms. They may discuss laws of self-defense, licensing and regulatory requirements, but they don't teach how to be a good person, morals, or ethics.

Why would martial arts teachers insert statements of personal ethics and morals being a requirement for teaching?

I'm not saying it's wrong; but I noted how many martial arts business owners in this thread insist that this is a requirement for teaching their art.

Why is that the case with martial arts and nothing else?

I don't think this is necessarily true where kids are involved (adults are a different thing entirely). Kids athletic programs, kids music programs, kids art programs, and other kids programs, such as the Scouts SHOULD incorporate these things. Although, I think that you're right in that they don't necessarily need to be overtly taught.

When a kid plays baseball, football or whatever, they are (or should be) learning more than the skills of the sport. Any coach worth his salt should be teaching them the value of sportsmanship, how to win with grace and lose with dignity. They should be learning the value of teamwork, how to handle stress, performance anxiety and the emotional roller coaster than competition brings. They should be learning goal setting, both short and long term and how to work hard to acheive these goals.

Even the private music teacher is communicating these positive traits indirectly. The important thing, though, is that all of these positive traits can come indirectly from learning to do something well.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill I can only answer for myself, I choose to teach the moral aspect along with the Art and sport side of TKD. This is due two fold the first being a parent of three boys I wanted it to be as much in there life as possible and the other is because of my professional choice of being a school teacher. If I can help some of our youth to understand that having proper manners and respect is always the best possible solution for a better and more productive life, than I choose to do it. Now with that being said there is a certain level of respect one must have to be in a good Martial Art school and this is mainly proper ediquet(mis-spelled I know) to know when to speak and how to speak to the instructor of said school. I hope that helps a little, I know it really does not answer everything but you can see why I choose to have it be a part of my school.:asian:

I can certainly understand why you want to teach the moral aspects along with the martial arts teaching.

But let make note of a couple things...

In this thread, the lack of moral teaching is seen as one of the aspects (and a negative one) of a McDojo. In other words, many here say that in order to NOT be a McDojo, one must teach ethical and moral lessons along with the martial arts.

And yet, I cannot recall ever reading about a baseball camp or piano instruction that was considered subpar for failing to teach those things; in other words, parents send their kids to music tutoring to learn to play an instrument; to baseball camp to learn to throw, catch, and hit. Nothing about moral lessons, right? I'm sure there are coaches and music teachers who have strong morals and emphasize them indirectly in their teaching, but we generally don't put those who don't in the 'bad' category, do we?

And as an adult - may I say that I personally enjoy the ethical and moral underpinnings I get from my Sensei. But in all honesty, I'm an adult. If I'm not a decent, honorable man by now, he's not going to teach it to me. And what's wrong with saying "I don't want to learn your morals, I want to learn karate?"

So I get why many instructors may feel it incumbent upon them to teach more than just the martial art itself - but they relegate those who do not to the 'bad' category; when as far as I can tell, this is a yardstick we do not apply to any other form of teaching.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't think this is necessarily true where kids are involved (adults are a different thing entirely). Kids athletic programs, kids music programs, kids art programs, and other kids programs, such as the Scouts SHOULD incorporate these things. Although, I think that you're right in that they don't necessarily need to be overtly taught.

When a kid plays baseball, football or whatever, they are (or should be) learning more than the skills of the sport. Any coach worth his salt should be teaching them the value of sportsmanship, how to win with grace and lose with dignity. They should be learning the value of teamwork, how to handle stress, performance anxiety and the emotional roller coaster than competition brings. They should be learning goal setting, both short and long term and how to work hard to acheive these goals.

Even the private music teacher is communicating these positive traits indirectly. The important thing, though, is that all of these positive traits can come indirectly from learning to do something well.

But I have never heard of a 'McBaseballCamp' or a 'McViolinLessons', have you? We accept that some teachers of violins or baseball simply teach the skills and nothing else - we do not see that as wrong (your observations noted and accepted of course).

Yet when it comes to martial arts, we do put those who choose to only teach the art and nothing else in the 'bad' category.

 

[dancingalone]

In this thread, the lack of moral teaching is seen as one of the aspects (and a negative one) of a McDojo. In other words, many here say that in order to NOT be a McDojo, one must teach ethical and moral lessons along with the martial arts.

I haven't read the thread, but it seems to me the opposite is actually true. My niece and nephew train ATA taekwondo, the system frequently derided as the epitome of a McDojo. Having attended many of their classes and activities with them, I actually had the opinion that McDojos focus more on the character-building aspect of martial arts than the actual physical activity itself.

 

[Steve]

But I have never heard of a 'McBaseballCamp' or a 'McViolinLessons', have you? We accept that some teachers of violins or baseball simply teach the skills and nothing else - we do not see that as wrong (your observations noted and accepted of course).

Yet when it comes to martial arts, we do put those who choose to only teach the art and nothing else in the 'bad' category.

That's because, unique to martial arts, the actual "learning skills" part can be compromised.

At the Baseball Camp, kids learn to play baseball and everything else derives from that. Violin lessons are the same. The child learns to play the violin and life lessons are a side effect. Martial arts? Not so much. That's the difference, IMO. The lessons are still critical and should still be consciously considered by the adult.

I should add that I believe that adults are role models for kids, whether we like it or not. We sometimes have no idea what lessons kids learn from us, or whether they're paying attention at all. So, whenever we're teaching, coaching or even interacting with kids, we should be mindful of all of the lessons we may be teaching them. As I said before, kids are always learning something from us. The real choice we have is whether to teach them something positive or something negative.

 

[jks9199]

That's because, unique to martial arts, the actual "learning skills" part can be compromised.

At the Baseball Camp, kids learn to play baseball and everything else derives from that. Violin lessons are the same. The child learns to play the violin and life lessons are a side effect. Martial arts? Not so much. That's the difference, IMO. The lessons are still critical and should still be consciously considered by the adult.

I should add that I believe that adults are role models for kids, whether we like it or not. We sometimes have no idea what lessons kids learn from us, or whether they're paying attention at all. So, whenever we're teaching, coaching or even interacting with kids, we should be mindful of all of the lessons we may be teaching them. As I said before, kids are always learning something from us. The real choice we have is whether to teach them something positive or something negative.

Actually, wrestling, football, baseball, and quite a few other sports have long been touted as "building character." They teach lessons like the value of practice, discipline, how to win or lose... It's just been called "sportsmanship." But isn't that teaching moral values?

But the martial arts have had links to mysticism, and to religion and philosophy. The Chinese arts are tied to monks, and the Japanese arts emphasized the personal development aspects in the days after WWII. So it's not surprising that martial arts here in the US have pushed some of those aspects...

Oh... and regarding the "after school" programs... Most states don't require them to be run as a day care center; they're "sports programs." But they're prolific (lots more than the summer sports camps...) It's downright scary how little they are regulated when you consider that they may be picking kids up from school in vehicles (not school buses...), supervising them for several hours a day, with no external control or regulation.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That's because, unique to martial arts, the actual "learning skills" part can be compromised.

How so? A baseball coach can be good, bad, or mediocre. Same for a martial arts instructor.

At the Baseball Camp, kids learn to play baseball and everything else derives from that. Violin lessons are the same. The child learns to play the violin and life lessons are a side effect. Martial arts? Not so much. That's the difference, IMO. The lessons are still critical and should still be consciously considered by the adult.

Not following you here. A block, a kick, a punch - all are done in a particular manner based on the martial arts tradition. Surely that can be taught completely effectively, but utterly divorced from any life-lessons or moral teachings.

I should add that I believe that adults are role models for kids, whether we like it or not. We sometimes have no idea what lessons kids learn from us, or whether they're paying attention at all. So, whenever we're teaching, coaching or even interacting with kids, we should be mindful of all of the lessons we may be teaching them. As I said before, kids are always learning something from us. The real choice we have is whether to teach them something positive or something negative.

I tend to agree with that, but that would apply to anything and any interaction adults have with children. I'm noting not what should be, but what apparently is - we call martial arts training that neglects a moral teaching aspect a 'McDojo' but we don't apply that same requirement to golf lessons (well, you do, but most don't).

I am just curious why a person can't be taught to throw a block, kick, or punch correctly without also being taught some sort of life-lesson as well. Is it not possible to learn these skills without the (sorry, can't think of a better word at the moment) 'trappings' of non-McDojo martial arts?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Actually, wrestling, football, baseball, and quite a few other sports have long been touted as "building character." They teach lessons like the value of practice, discipline, how to win or lose... It's just been called "sportsmanship." But isn't that teaching moral values?

Sure, but those who don't teach 'sportsmanship' but just focus on how to hit or how to field correctly are not singled out for derision and referred to pejoratively. It's a 'nice to have' not a requirement for us to consider them effective and 'good'.

And how about musical instruments? I've never seen a guitar teacher emphasizing sportsmanship, nor anyone who called a violin teacher out for failing to teach those values.

But the martial arts have had links to mysticism, and to religion and philosophy. The Chinese arts are tied to monks, and the Japanese arts emphasized the personal development aspects in the days after WWII. So it's not surprising that martial arts here in the US have pushed some of those aspects...

Ah, good point. And therefore, we ought to perpetuate those traditions? What of the forms of martial arts that have no Asian background? MMA, Systema, etc? Do they have a 'tag along' obligation to teach life lessons to their students, because Karate or Judo schools do?

Oh... and regarding the "after school" programs... Most states don't require them to be run as a day care center; they're "sports programs." But they're prolific (lots more than the summer sports camps...) It's downright scary how little they are regulated when you consider that they may be picking kids up from school in vehicles (not school buses...), supervising them for several hours a day, with no external control or regulation.

Well, again, that's a comment on how things ought to be. I'm noting what appears to be the case today.

We just don't expect a baseball coach to teach sportsmanship - if they do, that's great and we think a lot of it in general. But if they don't, we don't call their instruction worthless, or their business ethically bankrupt. If a McDojo does it, that's exactly what we call them.

Does this not seem odd in this context?

 

[Steve]

Actually, wrestling, football, baseball, and quite a few other sports have long been touted as "building character." They teach lessons like the value of practice, discipline, how to win or lose... It's just been called "sportsmanship." But isn't that teaching moral values?

But the martial arts have had links to mysticism, and to religion and philosophy. The Chinese arts are tied to monks, and the Japanese arts emphasized the personal development aspects in the days after WWII. So it's not surprising that martial arts here in the US have pushed some of those aspects...

Oh... and regarding the "after school" programs... Most states don't require them to be run as a day care center; they're "sports programs." But they're prolific (lots more than the summer sports camps...) It's downright scary how little they are regulated when you consider that they may be picking kids up from school in vehicles (not school buses...), supervising them for several hours a day, with no external control or regulation.

Okay. I'm having a rough spell with communication, clearly. So, I'm going to pare my point back as much as possible.

Whatever else a wrestling program purports to teach, it teaches AT LEAST wrestling skills. Any child who finishes the season will be better at wrestling after a season than they were before.

When a child spends time in the Boy Scouts, he will at least learn to tie knots, put up a tent and pick up some demonstrable skills.

After a year of "Martial Arts" training, a child might actually be LESS capable of defending him or herself.

 

[terryl965]

I can certainly understand why you want to teach the moral aspects along with the martial arts teaching.

But let make note of a couple things...

In this thread, the lack of moral teaching is seen as one of the aspects (and a negative one) of a McDojo. In other words, many here say that in order to NOT be a McDojo, one must teach ethical and moral lessons along with the martial arts.

And yet, I cannot recall ever reading about a baseball camp or piano instruction that was considered subpar for failing to teach those things; in other words, parents send their kids to music tutoring to learn to play an instrument; to baseball camp to learn to throw, catch, and hit. Nothing about moral lessons, right? I'm sure there are coaches and music teachers who have strong morals and emphasize them indirectly in their teaching, but we generally don't put those who don't in the 'bad' category, do we?

And as an adult - may I say that I personally enjoy the ethical and moral underpinnings I get from my Sensei. But in all honesty, I'm an adult. If I'm not a decent, honorable man by now, he's not going to teach it to me. And what's wrong with saying "I don't want to learn your morals, I want to learn karate?"

So I get why many instructors may feel it incumbent upon them to teach more than just the martial art itself - but they relegate those who do not to the 'bad' category; when as far as I can tell, this is a yardstick we do not apply to any other form of teaching.

Bill you are right that alot of other sports do not put the moral aspect into there training methods. I can appreciate what you are driving at.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

After a year of "Martial Arts" training, a child might actually be LESS capable of defending him or herself.

I agree that we're missing each other here. I don't quite see how that would be so, unless the instructor were utterly incompetent.

 

[grydth]

Sure, but those who don't teach 'sportsmanship' but just focus on how to hit or how to field correctly are not singled out for derision and referred to pejoratively. It's a 'nice to have' not a requirement for us to consider them effective and 'good'.

And how about musical instruments? I've never seen a guitar teacher emphasizing sportsmanship, nor anyone who called a violin teacher out for failing to teach those values.



Ah, good point. And therefore, we ought to perpetuate those traditions? What of the forms of martial arts that have no Asian background? MMA, Systema, etc? Do they have a 'tag along' obligation to teach life lessons to their students, because Karate or Judo schools do?



Well, again, that's a comment on how things ought to be. I'm noting what appears to be the case today.

We just don't expect a baseball coach to teach sportsmanship - if they do, that's great and we think a lot of it in general. But if they don't, we don't call their instruction worthless, or their business ethically bankrupt. If a McDojo does it, that's exactly what we call them.

Does this not seem odd in this context?

Bill, its very important that martial arts training consist of both adequate skills training and values training. Inadequate or outright fake skills training makes the place nothing but a charm school; teaching the physical skills without the values poses the very real risk of turning out better grade bullies and thugs.

I'd respectfully take issue with any notion that other sports are not expected to teach values. A perfect example was the USA - Canada hockey game last night. A very rugged game, with some personal and team hard feelings - - - yet every man went through the handshake line and the US hung around for the ceremony when they'd rather have been almost anywhere else. Anyone who thinks those values are not taught at the very early levels, or that breaches of these behavioral rules are not treated with "derision" hasn't spent time around this sport.

A violin teacher isn't teaching skills that could be used to injure or kill another human being... there's an important difference between violins and violence.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill you are right that alot of other sports do not put the moral aspect into there training methods. I can appreciate what you are driving at.

Thanks! I'm not trying to be bombastic or insist I'm right here - after all, I am a student at a non-McDojo, and I also have no desire to be a student of a McDojo. I appreciate what my dojo offers me as a student, far in excess of mere kicks, blocks, and punches. I certainly get that, and for me, it's something I want.

I was just thinking in terms of a person - let's say a hypothetical martial arts instructor. Someone who is well-versed in their art, and also a good communicator, someone who can effectively pass on the skills that make up their particular art. If that person decided to focus on the business aspects of running a dojo - to make it a financially successful business, one they could run as a full-time gig, is it unreasonable for them to teach 'just the art' and not what commonly goes along with it? Presuming they teach their skills well, does it make what they teach less effective, or less useful? Does it make them a bad person, or a poor teacher? Maybe it does, but I'm not sure of that.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill, its very important that martial arts training consist of both adequate skills training and values training. Inadequate or outright fake skills training makes the place nothing but a charm school; teaching the physical skills without the values poses the very real risk of turning out better grade bullies and thugs.

Do marksmanship instructors teach values? Do we expect them to?

I'd respectfully take issue with any notion that other sports are not expected to teach values. A perfect example was the USA - Canada hockey game last night. A very rugged game, with some personal and team hard feelings - - - yet every man went through the handshake line and the US hung around for the ceremony when they'd rather have been almost anywhere else. Anyone who thinks those values are not taught at the very early levels, or that breaches of these behavioral rules are not treated with "derision" hasn't spent time around this sport.

I agree that such values are accepted and desired in professional and amateur athletes. However, I am not familiar with any coach of a pro or college team that lost consistently but was kept around because they taught good values. None that were fired for having a winning season but not passing on effective life lessons.

We do demand sportsmanship in our athletes, and I agree that they must be learning it somewhere; probably from coaches and teachers and leaders and parents and clergy and so on. I'm noting however that we do not fire coaches who don't teach morals along with how to throw a change-up pitch.

A violin teacher isn't teaching skills that could be used to injure or kill another human being... there's an important difference between violins and violence.

Tell me you can't kill a person with a violin...

But again - marksmanship? To get a CCW license, I have to attend classes. To get a hunter's permit, same thing. They teach firearm safety, they teach the law, they teach shoot-don't shoot. They don't teach me how to be a decent and honest and upstanding person. Yet we do expect that of non-McDojo martial arts instructors.

 

[grydth]

I would say that the very purpose of firearms safety training is based upon law and values. I've had some very good instructors, from a very early age on through adult life..... and values based instruction is the difference between a responsible firearms owner and a drive by shooter.

 

[JWLuiza]

I think no activity inherently by itself teaches morals and values; it is the interactions among human beings that provide this learning.

Morals and values are best learned by children through observation, and when old enough feedback. However drilling "morals" and the preachy version of the stereotypical McDojo actually, IMO, isn't the best way to teach what we hope to...

I think that if the training comes first (in whatever activity), the students have the chance to pick up on the life lessons.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I would say that the very purpose of firearms safety training is based upon law and values. I've had some very good instructors, from a very early age on through adult life..... and values based instruction is the difference between a responsible firearms owner and a drive by shooter.

Law yes, values no. You point out that you've had some firearms instructors who taught values - having no knowledge of them, I must accept your statement. However, and again, getting to the heart of what I'm saying here - there is nothing requiring a firearms instructor to teach 'values' along with gun safety, law, and how to actually hit your target. And I've not ever heard of an instructor fired for failing to teach 'values' along with marksmanship. Never heard of a firearms instructor told he is less than worthy because he doesn't teach values. Yet with martial arts...somehow it is a different story.

You can point out how YOUR instructors taught you fine values and ethics all you like; mine did too. But it wasn't required, nor were any of them fired for not doing it or rewarded for doing that and not their jobs. We just don't attach a stigma to instructors of almost anything you care to mention who FAIL to teach ethics, morals, values, or whatever. Except martial arts instructors.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think no activity inherently by itself teaches morals and values; it is the interactions among human beings that provide this learning.

Morals and values are best learned by children through observation, and when old enough feedback. However drilling "morals" and the preachy version of the stereotypical McDojo actually, IMO, isn't the best way to teach what we hope to...

I think that if the training comes first (in whatever activity), the students have the chance to pick up on the life lessons.

If that is the case, then the McDojo is no more guilty of failing to teach morals, values, or ethics than any non-McDojo, right?

I mean, this is one of the main arguments I've read in this thread against the McDojo - they don't teach ethics. Yet if your statement is true, everything teaches ethics. If it's not, apparently we require specific ethics instruction from martial arts instructors, but no other instructor I can think of - at least not explicitly. We read comments about how this instructor or that instructor did provide values and ethics along with their training, but in what field has a coach, teacher, or trainer been fired for teaching well, winning games, producing excellent students, but failing to teach 'values'? I can't think of any. But if a martial arts instructor chooses to focus on teaching martial arts and not 'values', they're not worthy somehow. Hmmm, not clear on that.

 

[JWLuiza]

If that is the case, then the McDojo is no more guilty of failing to teach morals, values, or ethics than any non-McDojo, right?

Correct.

I mean, this is one of the main arguments I've read in this thread against the McDojo - they don't teach ethics.

I don't agree with this assessment, but yes it has been a main argument.

Yet if your statement is true, everything teaches ethics. If it's not, apparently we require specific ethics instruction from martial arts instructors, but no other instructor I can think of - at least not explicitly. We read comments about how this instructor or that instructor did provide values and ethics along with their training, but in what field has a coach, teacher, or trainer been fired for teaching well, winning games, producing excellent students, but failing to teach 'values'? I can't think of any. But if a martial arts instructor chooses to focus on teaching martial arts and not 'values', they're not worthy somehow. Hmmm, not clear on that.

I think you and I are on the same page on this.