Martial Sacrilege (part 1)

[jobo]

And asserting that others are "wrong" (your own word).

yes, i think the current black belt situation is WRONG, that why I'm am posting on this thread, if i thought it was right i wouldn't have bothered

 

[lklawson]

no im a 60s child convinced that that the world in general and ma black belts have got it wrong

You still seem to believe that you have any credibility or authority. I still find this amusing.

 

[jobo]

You still seem to believe that you have any credibility or authority. I still find this amusing.

I'm pleased. You are amused.

 

[jks9199]

yes, i think the current black belt situation is WRONG, that why I'm am posting on this thread, if i thought it was right i wouldn't have bothered

OK. You say there's a problem.

How do you propose to fix it?

 

[lklawson]

OK. You say there's a problem.

How do you propose to fix it?

Fix it? I'm still waiting for him to show that there's a problem. Heck, I'm still waiting for him to show why anyone should accept his definition.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Danny T]

Willful ignorance or denial of the facts.

 

[jobo]

OK. You say there's a problem.

How do you propose to fix it?

ive given a reasonable suggestion, as soon as you can't pass the black belt test again, you are demoted to what ever standard you now are at, or you carry on as an instructer and retire and have a stripe to show this.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

no, your point was, that someone who used to be able to do karate can teach, so deserves a black belt. My point is,,,, that some one who has never done karate can read a book and teach just as well as the first guy, so he deserves a black belt as well

I'd have a lot of respect for someone who could read a book on a martial art and teach that art just as well as an experienced practitioner. I've never come across such a person, however.

I have met a good number of elderly instructors who have messed up joints and are no longer in good fighting condition, but who can provide excellent guidance and feedback concerning subtle details of body alignment, timing, situational tactics, adjusting techniques for different body types, and many more factors that no one ever learns from a book.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

ive given a reasonable suggestion, as soon as you can't pass the black belt test again, you are demoted to what ever standard you now are at, or you carry on as an instructer and retire and have a stripe to show this.

And this is a reasonable assertion...IF the black belt ranks mean that a person can currently perform at a certain level. The part I take issue with is that you're asserting either that this is what it DOES mean or that this is what it SHOULD mean. If the former, you're ignoring what it actually means to most martial artists. If the latter (which you denied a few posts ago), then you are asserting yourself as having a more proper meaning than others.

 

[Danny T]

The strange human capacity for reasoning may have more to do with winning than with thinking straight. There is a psychological thing called “confirmation bias,” which is the tendency, some people have, to embrace information that supports their opinions, views, or beliefs only and rejecting information that contradicts them even when that information is factual, correct, and the truth.

 

[jobo]

And this is a reasonable assertion...IF the black belt ranks mean that a person can currently perform at a certain level. The part I take issue with is that you're asserting either that this is what it DOES mean or that this is what it SHOULD mean. If the former, you're ignoring what it actually means to most martial artists. If the latter (which you denied a few posts ago), then you are asserting yourself as having a more proper meaning than others.

this seems to be a circulatory argument of yours, I'm giving my view that i believe to be correct, it therefore follows logically that i believe that those who disagree are incorrect.

I'm not sure h ow many times you want me to repeat the same thing?

 

[jobo]

The strange human capacity for reasoning may have more to do with winning than with thinking straight. There is a psychological thing called “confirmation bias,” which is the tendency, some people have, to embrace information that supports their opinions, views, or beliefs only and rejecting information that contradicts them even when that information is factual, correct, and the truth.

yes you are correct, let's hope they catch on to that

 

[lklawson]

ive given a reasonable suggestion, as soon as you can't pass the black belt test again, you are demoted to what ever standard you now are at, or you carry on as an instructer and retire and have a stripe to show this.

But you still haven't demonstrated that 1) your definition is worthwhile or 2) even if worthwhile, there is a problem which needs to be "fixed."

 

[oftheherd1]

this seems to be a circulatory argument of yours, I'm giving my view that i believe to be correct, it therefore follows logically that i believe that those who disagree are incorrect.

I'm not sure h ow many times you want me to repeat the same thing?

Bold: Wow. Just wow.

Underlined: I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly don't need to see you repeat it again. It won't make any more sense no matter how many times you repeat it.

 

[jobo]

But you still haven't demonstrated that 1) your definition is worthwhile or 2) even if worthwhile, there is a problem which needs to be "fixed."

the problem is they reputation of traditional ma to the general public, which seems at something of a low. . That problems needs to be,fixed before the arts all but,die out.

part of that reputation problem is old men(and ladies) who can hardly move let alone Fight strutting about wearing black belts

 

[oftheherd1]

I'd have a lot of respect for someone who could read a book on a martial art and teach that art just as well as an experienced practitioner. I've never come across such a person, however.

I have met a good number of elderly instructors who have messed up joints and are no longer in good fighting condition, but who can provide excellent guidance and feedback concerning subtle details of body alignment, timing, situational tactics, adjusting techniques for different body types, and many more factors that no one ever learns from a book.

I think you have stated a good response correctly.

Sounds like my GM. He invented a Kwan. When he reached his 70s he was still able to do a lot of things we kept striving to do. Reverse spin kick or some other thing that relied on younger joints? He didn't need to be able to do that perfectly as he had younger black belts to do that. But if you tried and did anything wrong, he could tell you and tell you what you needed to do to correct it. If you wanted to know how to do a particular joint lock better, he was your best person to ask and to demonstrate it. And don't ask him to demonstrate a pain pressure point because you don't think you are doing it quite right!

But you would demote him in his own Kwan?

as above, i only have views that are how i believe things should be.

I'm quite probably not going to reach black belt, before the hour glass runs out, i can't keep improving my fitness year on year at my age, so we are left with the situation that i reach a middling rank but am far more capable than a black belt who doesn't work on his fitness as much as i do, that can't be a good thing

All your noise and you haven't even reached black belt level yet? Have you considered that you don't have standing to make the statements you do?

 

[jobo]

All your noise and you haven't even reached black belt level yet? Have you considered that you don't have standing to make the statements you do?

no

 

[lklawson]

the problem is they reputation of traditional ma to the general public,

The "reputation?" Who cares? BB is nothing but a "standard" for within whatever organizing body is certifying. Does BJJ have a good "reputation?" Does Yellow Bamboo have a bad "reputation?" Why? They both give Black Belts, right? Further, why would any of us care if "traditional martial arts" have whatever "reputation" to the "general public" when it certainly appears that the "general public" doesn't have any better idea of what "black belt" means than you do? Just because the "general public" thinks that hackers bypass firewalls with stolen passwords in 8 seconds (while getting a BJ) and takes over the databases of every bank on the planet or that a "black belt" means some sort of mechanized death machine doesn't make either of them right. It just means that you're busy arguing that because the general public thinks someone with a computer degree should be able to hack the pentagon while watching a harry potter movie and eating doritos that anyone who can't do that should have their degree revoked. And I gotta tell you, that sort of <cough> "reasoning" is frigg'n stupid.

which seems at something of a low. . That problems needs to be,fixed before the arts all but,die out.

Who cares? From my research, Martial Arts training has always had shaky reputations and appears to have hit a high point in the 70's when "the general public" mistakenly believed that Bruce Lee could beat up a tribe of Sasquatch.

part of that reputation problem is old men(and ladies) who can hardly move let alone Fight strutting about wearing black belts

No. Part of that "reputation problem" is that you have not only bought into some sort of mistaken misunderstanding of what "black belt" must mean but you're actively reinforcing the caricatured stereotype.

 

[oftheherd1]

the problem is they reputation of traditional ma to the general public, which seems at something of a low. . That problems needs to be,fixed before the arts all but,die out.

part of that reputation problem is old men(and ladies) who can hardly move let alone Fight strutting about wearing black belts

Does your art require fitness over technique?

 

[jobo]

The "reputation?" Who cares? BB is nothing but a "standard" for within whatever organizing body is certifying. Does BJJ have a good "reputation?" Does Yellow Bamboo have a bad "reputation?" Why? They both give Black Belts, right? Further, why would any of us care if "traditional martial arts" have whatever "reputation" to the "general public" when it certainly appears that the "general public" doesn't have any better idea of what "black belt" means than you do? Just because the "general public" thinks that hackers bypass firewalls with stolen passwords in 8 seconds (while getting a BJ) and takes over the databases of every bank on the planet or that a "black belt" means some sort of mechanized death machine doesn't make either of them right. It just means that you're busy arguing that because the general public thinks someone with a computer degree should be able to hack the pentagon while watching a harry potter movie and eating doritos that anyone who can't do that should have their degree revoked. And I gotta tell you, that sort of <cough> "reasoning" is frigg'n stupid.

Who cares? From my research, Martial Arts training has always had shaky reputations and appears to have hit a high point in the 70's when "the general public" mistakenly believed that Bruce Lee could beat up a tribe of Sasquatch.

No. Part of that "reputation problem" is that you have not only bought into some sort of mistaken misunderstanding of what "black belt" must mean but you're actively reinforcing the caricatured stereotype.

but the,current stereo type of a black belt, is it a portly out of breath dude with a bad back, fallen arches and an irregular heart beat, that's not a good selling point to attract people into ma, unless you are in a similar bad way