Martial Sacrilege (part 1)

[Finlay]

Hello




This is inspired from a thread I saw where the OP made a comment about getting a black belt in a year. There is a possibility that his comment was misunderstood, but in any case he seemed to have quickly received a good deal of disapproval for getting a black belt in such a short time.

I accpet this is a well worn topic, but often it just seems to brushed over with 1 year black belt = Mcdojo, fraud etc. I'd like to have a deeper discussion on the matter with those interested in doing so

In my martial career I have met a very small number of individuals who receive their 1st dan in a remarkably short time. These individual were part of a recognized organization and for the most part have gone on to achieve great things in their art. I accept that these people are the acceptation but if you met any of them and they told you they received their black belt 15 months, likely you would be suspicious that they did some sort of Mcdojo style.


I believe that normally black belts are attained in the 3-5 year bracket. Is this a true measure of what it take to develop a foundational skill in an art (which I believe black belt should be) or is it some socially accepted length of time to achieve something?

Does the fact that there are some arts that it takes 10 years to get a black belt somehow lessen the 5 year Black Belts?

Under what circumstances would you see a person “fast tracking” to BB as legitimate?


And finally do we have the right to judge what a black belt in a different system means?

 

[lklawson]

"Black Belt" (shodan?) is nothing.

It is a made up "rank" which represents exactly what the certifying body says it represents. Nothing more. Nothing less.

There is a perception that "Black Belt" represents an "expert." For some organizations, it does. For some, it may not. And what "expert" means is highly variable.

"Black Belt" doesn't mean expert. It just means, "this person has met the minimum requirements that we have to earn this 'rank' in our system."

That may be strictly skills based. Demonstrate you know skills X, Y, and Z. It may be "live sparring" based (whatever that means). It may include "time in grade," an arbitrary "maturity level," or some amount of "promoting the art."

If a school has some "ranking" hierarchy where a student can achieve the vaunted "Black Belt" in a year, well, that's fine for them. Their ranks don't mean anything to me, my ranks don't mean anything to them, and some third party's ranks don't mean anything to anyone else.

Don't worry about their "Black Belt" standards. If you don't like or agree with them, then don't train there.

Just train. Get better at what you do and don't worry a whole lot about what other people do.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[DanT]

In my Kung Fu association, Black Sash represents becoming a full instructor. To do so typically requires 6-10 years of hard training.

The meaning of black belt/sash depends on the organization.

 

[jobo]

Hello




This is inspired from a thread I saw where the OP made a comment about getting a black belt in a year. There is a possibility that his comment was misunderstood, but in any case he seemed to have quickly received a good deal of disapproval for getting a black belt in such a short time.

I accpet this is a well worn topic, but often it just seems to brushed over with 1 year black belt = Mcdojo, fraud etc. I'd like to have a deeper discussion on the matter with those interested in doing so

In my martial career I have met a very small number of individuals who receive their 1st dan in a remarkably short time. These individual were part of a recognized organization and for the most part have gone on to achieve great things in their art. I accept that these people are the acceptation but if you met any of them and they told you they received their black belt 15 months, likely you would be suspicious that they did some sort of Mcdojo style.


I believe that normally black belts are attained in the 3-5 year bracket. Is this a true measure of what it take to develop a foundational skill in an art (which I believe black belt should be) or is it some socially accepted length of time to achieve something?

Does the fact that there are some arts that it takes 10 years to get a black belt somehow lessen the 5 year Black Belts?

Under what circumstances would you see a person “fast tracking” to BB as legitimate?


And finally do we have the right to judge what a black belt in a different system means?

it has been much discussed, i far as i can tell people think what ever they had to do to get a black belt is what is correct. If it tool them 10 years of education then that what everybody should do, or its a fraud in some way, I've even suggested that black belts that let themselves get old and flabby should be demoted to the grade they now have the fitness/ flexibility for, that made several people get quite cross. It like me turning up at a five a side match, with the soccer medals i won when i was 22, " LOOK i used to be good", it would cause the now 22 yo to laugh at me

personally i think its all childish, like collecting merit badges in the girl guides, you are what ever standard you are NOW, your belt colour won't make any difference

 

[Dirty Dog]

Rank pretty much only has meaning within the school or organization issuing it.
Our 1st Dan is considered a teaching rank, not a beginner rank. It takes, on average, 6-8 years for an adult to earn.
But there are exceptions to most everything...
I earned my 1st Dan in this system in two years, and could have done it faster if I'd wanted. Why? Because I came to the Moo Duk Kwan with a fair bit of prior training, including Dan rank in a similar art. It took me about 8 weeks to learn the Kukkiwon curriculum and get a 1st Dan from them. Does that make my KKW rank any different from someone who took a year (which is not uncommon in KKW schools)? Nope. It's just the same. In a KKW school.
Rank can be a motivator for some, and in a large school it can help instructors know what material to cover or where a given student should be at in their training. It can be useful for organizational structure. But it's just really not that big a deal otherwise, at least to me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"Black Belt" (shodan?) is nothing.

It is a made up "rank" which represents exactly what the certifying body says it represents. Nothing more. Nothing less.

There is a perception that "Black Belt" represents an "expert." For some organizations, it does. For some, it may not. And what "expert" means is highly variable.

"Black Belt" doesn't mean expert. It just means, "this person has met the minimum requirements that we have to earn this 'rank' in our system."

That may be strictly skills based. Demonstrate you know skills X, Y, and Z. It may be "live sparring" based (whatever that means). It may include "time in grade," an arbitrary "maturity level," or some amount of "promoting the art."

If a school has some "ranking" hierarchy where a student can achieve the vaunted "Black Belt" in a year, well, that's fine for them. Their ranks don't mean anything to me, my ranks don't mean anything to them, and some third party's ranks don't mean anything to anyone else.

Don't worry about their "Black Belt" standards. If you don't like or agree with them, then don't train there.

Just train. Get better at what you do and don't worry a whole lot about what other people do.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Pretty much this. I took about 12 years to get my BB. I met a guy who got his in the same art in 3 (which he said was too fast). I met a couple of people who got theirs in under 2 in two different organizations (different art). Of those, the only valid comparison was mine and the other guy in the NGAA. His was too quick, and I was pretty slow to get mine.

In any case, it's just a rank (rather, the belt represents the rank), and only means what it means to the population involved. If someone wanted to start everyone at BB and work them through aqua, puce, and blaze orange before getting them to white, that'd be fine. I might join them just to have a puce belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

it has been much discussed, i far as i can tell people think what ever they had to do to get a black belt is what is correct. If it tool them 10 years of education then that what everybody should do, or its a fraud in some way, I've even suggested that black belts that let themselves get old and flabby should be demoted to the grade they now have the fitness/ flexibility for, that made several people get quite cross. It like me turning up at a five a side match, with the soccer medals i won when i was 22, " LOOK i used to be good", it would cause the now 22 yo to laugh at me

personally i think its all childish, like collecting merit badges in the girl guides, you are what ever standard you are NOW, your belt colour won't make any difference

You're confusing the belt/rank with current physical ability. They don't necessarily mean that (though in some places they do).

 

[jobo]

You're confusing the belt/rank with current physical ability. They don't necessarily mean that (though in some places they do).

it was slightly tongue in cheek, but it should be like army rank, you need to add retired to your rank when you are four stone over weight with bad knees and a herniated disc, they could have a yellow stripe at the back of their black belt to signify this

 

[Gerry Seymour]

it was slightly tongue in cheek, but it should be like army rank, you need to add retired to your rank when you are four stone over weight with bad knees and a herniated disc

Only if that rank is supposed to mean you can do things you no longer can. I'm not aware of an organization where that is the meaning of the rank. Same for army rank - having the rank of General doesn't mean you can make the run that was required to graduate out of basic.

 

[CB Jones]

Only if that rank is supposed to mean you can do things you no longer can. I'm not aware of an organization where that is the meaning of the rank. Same for army rank - having the rank of General doesn't mean you can make the run that was required to graduate out of basic.

Agree. To me rank should denote knowledge and understanding of something.

Just because someone's body has aged and is failing....they still possess the knowledge and understanding that their rank represents.

 

[jobo]

Only if that rank is supposed to mean you can do things you no longer can. I'm not aware of an organization where that is the meaning of the rank. Same for army rank - having the rank of General doesn't mean you can make the run that was required to graduate out of basic.

but you do need to be able to pass an age related fitness test to stay in the army, no matter what rank you are.( perhaps not if your an actual general as they never actually get near any actual fighting)

if you need specified fitness abilities to gain a belt, when you can no longer perform at that level, then you black belt is just a long service sash and not an indication of ability.

i no longer wear my scout standard badge, coz there is no way i can light a fire with out matches( or a zippo)
Though i can still tie a mean bowline, I'm the only person i know that can tie a proper noose , that wasn't in badge, but it may come in handy one day

 

[jobo]

Agree. To me rank should denote knowledge and understanding of something.

Just because someone's body has aged and is failing....they still possess the knowledge and understanding that their rank represents.

but not perhaps the ability to use that knowledge?

 

[MA_Student]

I don't like the attitude you're only a begginer when you get to black belt....um no you're not a begginer is a white belt where you know absoloutley 0. When you're a black belt you're meant to know your stuff at a good level. Frankly no ones perfect and no ones ever going to be perfect that's a fact. I think a lot of traditional places put to much emphasis on the perfect technique. Like I personally really don't care if my horse stance is exactly 50/50 in weight or if it has the correct toe and heel line because if I ever need to fight that stuffs all going out the window anyway lets be honest.

Now if guys want to do that and spend ages studying the perfect techique then good on them nothing wrong with that at all but not everyone wants that and I think that techique isn't the most important when It comes to fighting I believe conditioning, heart and determination are what makes someone good at fighting and I believe that just because someone can't do a picture perfect fighting stance but they can hold their own against anyone in a fight that doesn't mean they shouldn't be promoted.

As for the how long thing I just don't see how you can give anyone a black in a year. It's like a boxer they wouldn't be fighting for a word title in a year would they.

 

[MA_Student]

Agree. To me rank should denote knowledge and understanding of something.

Just because someone's body has aged and is failing....they still possess the knowledge and understanding that their rank represents.

So would you want to learn to drive a car off someone who's been driving for 60 years but now is half blind and has very slow reactions

 

[CB Jones]

but not perhaps the ability to use that knowledge?

You still have the ability to impart that knowledge to someone.

Just like most coaches can not play the game anymore they can still teach and develop and have the expert knowledge to pass on.

coz there is no way i can light a fire with out matches(

That isn't an ability problem but apparently you lack the knowledge to anymore.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't like the attitude you're only a begginer when you get to black belt....um no you're not a begginer is a white belt where you know absoloutley 0. When you're a black belt you're meant to know your stuff at a good level.

Depends who you ask. In many systems, 1st Dan means nothing more than 'you've got the basics covered.' In others it means 'you're qualified to teach.' And anywhere in between.

Frankly no ones perfect and no ones ever going to be perfect that's a fact. I think a lot of traditional places put to much emphasis on the perfect technique. Like I personally really don't care if my horse stance is exactly 50/50 in weight or if it has the correct toe and heel line because if I ever need to fight that stuffs all going out the window anyway lets be honest.

You can never place too much emphasis on perfection. You will never achieve it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be striving for it.

Now if guys want to do that and spend ages studying the perfect techique then good on them nothing wrong with that at all but not everyone wants that and I think that techique isn't the most important when It comes to fighting I believe conditioning, heart and determination are what makes someone good at fighting and I believe that just because someone can't do a picture perfect fighting stance but they can hold their own against anyone in a fight that doesn't mean they shouldn't be promoted.

Depends on if you're trying to learn to fight or trying to learn the art.

As for the how long thing I just don't see how you can give anyone a black in a year. It's like a boxer they wouldn't be fighting for a word title in a year would they.

And 99.99% of 1st Dan holders are not going to be fighting for a world title. Or a national title. But hey, if you think a 1st Dan should only be awarded to someone who is a world class competitor, that's fine. In your school. I hope that means you're either not a BB, or hold a world title yourself...

 

[CB Jones]

So would you want to learn to drive a car off someone who's been driving for 60 years but now is half blind and has very slow reactions

Sure. If they still have the knowledge to impart.

You think Mario Andretti forgot how to drive after he turned 60?

 

[MA_Student]

but you do need to be able to pass an age related fitness test to stay in the army, no matter what rank you are.( perhaps not if your an actual general as they never actually get near any actual fighting)

if you need specified fitness abilities to gain a belt, when you can no longer perform at that level, then you black belt is just a long service sash and not an indication of ability.

i no longer wear my scout standard badge, coz there is no way i can light a fire with out matches( or a zippo)
Though i can still tie a mean bowline, I'm the only person i know that can tie a proper noose , that wasn't in badge, but it may come in handy one day

I'm always of the mindset lead by example. If I get a student to do 10 press ups in a warm up I'm doing those 10 press ups to heck I'll do 20 while they do 10.

Of course when guys get older they won't be fit as they were 20 years ago everyone knows that but that doesn't mean they can't do /any/ fitness training. My Jiu Jitsu coach is in his 60s dodgy knees, bad fingers and yet he's still rolling with the young guys and lifting weights regularly. Age can be factor but not an excuse in my eyes. Just cause your 70 and can't run as fast doesn't mean you can't hit the roads and do a few miles every now and then.

Personally the thing I absoloutley hate most are these guys who are barking out instructions about having stances as low as the ground when they're legs are totally straight or them yelling at you to keep doing press ups while they're sat down watching. I just don't like that at all.

The worst one was once I asked a black belt if the class was going to do some sparring his response. No I'm to old for sparring.....um well okay but why does this mean the class can't spar....it's just things like this that bug me. The one good thing about mma, kickboxing etc is the guys know that being in shape is important and even if they're not in the best shape they'll still do a lot of work on it. I find it more motivating when my Thai coach says to Shadow box and unless pointing out stuff is doing the rounds right there with us

 

[MA_Student]

Sure. If they still have the knowledge to impart.

You think Mario Andretti forgot how to drive after he turned 60?

So you'd want to sit in a car and have a guy half blind telling you when to break, when to turn when to change gear...

 

[CB Jones]

So would you want to learn to drive a car off someone who's been driving for 60 years but now is half blind and has very slow reactions

Do you think Freddie Roach can't train boxers because he no longer can fight?