Martial Arts vs Multiple Attackers

[oftheherd1]

Nice topic! In Kenpo, we had a few multi man attacks, ie: shoulder grabs, punches from the front and rear, being held from the rear while being punched. Practical? Well, that's up for debate..lol. Hey, I'm being honest. But that was usually the extent of it...just the preset techs. However, training on my own, and with others....I like the idea of trying to stack the opponents so you use one as a shield against the others. I also liked the idea of the use of the shield, but while you're holding one of the attackers, preferably in a painful hold, choke of sorts.

IMO, it's really hard to know exactly what'll happen. I'd say the environment you're in will also play a big part. ie: parking garage or crowded nightclub. Personally, given the fact that the odds are stacked against you from the start, I'm all for doing whatever you have to do, to survive. If it means picking up an improvised weapon, ie: pool stick, a bottle, or a chair, and using it, then go for it.

edit---as Kirk mentioned...run-fu!!! In a situation like this, hanging around, prolonging the fight is just stupid. As soon as an opening to escape presents itself, I'm getting the hell out of there.

I have never had to fight off multiple attackers. At the level I was in Hapkido, that wasn't being taught yet. But I have often tried to train myself in what I would do. I agree with as much movement as it takes to disorient attackers, and shielding when possible; in fact trying to set that up, both for protection and disorienting opponents. I also would be doing as many low, damaging kicks as I could, along with whatever grappling opportunities presented themselves. I hope I never have to fight more than one attacker, and hope that if I do, some variations of what I just described are possible for me, and are effective.

In TKD, one of the reasons stated for chambering the punch the way we do is that your elbow goes back, which allows you to strike a target behind you with that arm. I also know that as you get more advanced, they emphasize sparring 2-on-1 or greater for testing, to show that you can handle being outnumbered.

I wouldn't disregard rear elbow strikes too quickly. When I studied TKD, we were taught both that the moving of the non-striking arm backwards was an action-reaction thing to increase power of the punch, and in case there was an opponent there, the opponent would be struck by the elbow. Both moves were done with maximum force. If there is no opponent there you have lost nothing. If there is, he has been it hard in the ribs. Why wouldn't you practice doing that? I have a tendency if I feel a body behind me, to strike with an elbow. EDIT: Part of that comes from Hapkido.

Hapkido (and from what I've seen, Aikido) focus on grappling techniques that force your attacker down but keep you standing. I feel this would be an ideal situation: in 1-on-1, you can still get a compliance hold or break, and against multiple attackers you can set someone down and still be standing.

Don't misunderstand the object of many joint locks that result in those neat looking throws and break falls. In practice we allow our practice opponent to move into the break fall. If we apply the technique quickly and strongly, there is no opportunity to do that and a joint if dislocated or a bone broken. In a real self defense situation, if you dislocate a joint or brake a bone, that opponent is likely out of the fight. If you have more than one opponent, you just got one less.

Kirk's points make heaps of sense except that my friends are mostly old and out of shape which means that now I not only have to look after myself, I have to look after them too. Then we don't carry weapons here so there goes point no three and at 65 the honest truth is that most of my attackers are likely to be able to run faster and further than me. (Plus I might have my old and unfit mates with me. I know that in reality I only have to be able to run faster than them but I would probably feel bad visiting them in hospital later )

So that just leaves number one advice that I agree with totally.

Which brings me to .....


I have to disagree with your tactic of waiting and counter punching. You might employ that tactic against one person but against multiples I would be taking the initiative. It is the principle taught in both Krav and Systema and I teach that to my guys when we train that scenario. Not suggesting for one minute it is wrong to wait, what works for you is all that matters.
:asian:

For myself, if I were misfortunate enought to be in a multiple attacker situation, I wouldn't go into it deciding to do either one until I saw the advantage of using one or the other presenting itself. There are advantages and disadvantages to both depending on the situation. Why lock yourself in to the one that has less chance of working? Hapkido is primarily defensive, but we learn offense as well.

For those here who may study Moo Duk Kwan, do they stress multiple attacker defense? I very briefly studied that one many years ago. Along with punching, kicking, and forms, we were taught multiple attacker defenses and some grappling. Maybe it was just that Moo Duk Kwan style. And if it was called a particular type of Moo Duk Kwan, I don't remember after all these years.

EDIT: Wow, I started this and then something came up and I had to leave for a while. Then obviously things got busy for a while. I should have checked before I finished and posted.

 

[RTKDCMB]

In TKD, one of the reasons stated for chambering the punch the way we do is that your elbow goes back, which allows you to strike a target behind you with that arm.

There are many reasons for bringing the punching fist back to the hip. For the elbow one to work the 2nd opponent would have to be practically up against you. Some of the reasons I can think of:

1) Simplicity - one of the 1st things you learn when you begin Taekwondo is the horse riding stance mid section punch, when doing 2 punches like this (with the non-punching hand returning to the hip) both punches are exactly the same. When you do them in a forward stance or a back stance or from a guarding block one is more powerful than the other so it is easier to learn and to get the twist of the wrist right from the horse riding stance. Also if you are doing it for one technique simplicity demands you do it for all of them.

2) Hip involvement - goes back to point 1, most of the power in any single hand technique comes from twisting the hips so bringing the punching hand back to the hip puts it into the position for the next punch which starts at the point of rotation.

3) Retracting the striking hand - If your hand can retract your hand back to the hip as fast as you can finish your punch then you can retract your hand to avoid it getting grabbed as fast as you can punch. Going back to point 2 it also helps to improve your hip rotation with the push-pull action.

4) Speed - Because coming from the hip you have to move your hand further to get to the target than if you were punching from a guarding block. If you want to punch a target faster (get there in lass time) you will have to punch faster from the hip so if you can punch fast from the hip how fast can you punch from the guarding position?

5) Grabbing something - Sometimes the retracting hand can be the result of grabbing your opponent and pulling them in to increase the power you hit them with, to make it harder for them to defend against it or to bring them closer to you. There are some movements in the Chang Hon patterns that do this, although not just to the hip such as the grab-chop in Whon Hyo or the double elbow in Po Eun which could either be 2 elbows to 2 different opponents (there, still in the spirit of the multiple attackers thread) or grabbing with one hand, pulling them in and hitting them with the other.

I am sure there will be some that disagree and/or have other ideas but there you are.

 

[lklawson]

To be fair he did say it was "one of the reasons" not the only reason.

Fair enough.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[MJS]

I have never had to fight off multiple attackers. At the level I was in Hapkido, that wasn't being taught yet. But I have often tried to train myself in what I would do. I agree with as much movement as it takes to disorient attackers, and shielding when possible; in fact trying to set that up, both for protection and disorienting opponents. I also would be doing as many low, damaging kicks as I could, along with whatever grappling opportunities presented themselves. I hope I never have to fight more than one attacker, and hope that if I do, some variations of what I just described are possible for me, and are effective.

Neither have I. When I was working in Corrections, the COs were always outnumbered, and every time I was in that situation, especially in some areas with limited space, ie: hallway of the cell block, it always made me be extra cautious. I agree with the low line stuff. IMO, that's not really the time to be trying out the jump spinning kicks. I'm not saying that we should have no reasoning behind what we're doing, ie: swinging wildly, but IMO, in multi man situations, I'd also suggest having the 'caged' animal mindset. Hit hard, fast, and effectively.

 

[oftheherd1]

Neither have I. When I was working in Corrections, the COs were always outnumbered, and every time I was in that situation, especially in some areas with limited space, ie: hallway of the cell block, it always made me be extra cautious. I agree with the low line stuff. IMO, that's not really the time to be trying out the jump spinning kicks. I'm not saying that we should have no reasoning behind what we're doing, ie: swinging wildly, but IMO, in multi man situations, I'd also suggest having the 'caged' animal mindset. Hit hard, fast, and effectively.

Absolutely! We aren't paid to get hurt, or fight by 'fair' rules. In corrections, law enforcement, or just on the street, we can be very certain that our opponents won't be fighting that way. We shouldn't either. When they stop resisting, we can stop fighting. Up until that point, fair is not getting hurt or killed.

 

[skribs]

I love how much controversy I stirred up regarding rear elbows! Yes, I know there are reasons aside from the rear elbow why we chamber the way we do, and I know that the rear elbow is probably a tertiary or quadriary reason. However, it is the only reason that I can think of that directly applies to a multiple-attacker scenario in this thread.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There's really no "controversy" involved. What you posted just shows a poor understanding of the principles involved (which should be expected in a beginner). Hopefully, your understanding will improve.

 

[K-man]

Which takedowns or throws are you thinking of that use the horse stance?

For example at the 0:28 and 0:36 marks there are two techniques shown using Shiko dachi.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fswM6YOxj7k&desktop_uri=/watch?v=fswM6YOxj7k
In a recent grading I used the first to step behind taking a head lock on the way through and culminating in a neck crank or take down (similar in effect to Iriminage). The second I stepped in front, again taking a headlock and dropped into Shiko dachi pulling uke across the leg and to the ground. The third way is stepping behind, dropping into Shiko as your arm pushes back, taking him down. I think these would be the three most common uses in our training.
(I only use the term 'horse stance' for Shiko dachi because it is common usage. In Goju Uchi Hachi dachi would be the closest we have to true horse stance.)
:asian:

 

[SENC-33]

This scenario is EXACTLY why I SURVIVAL TRAIN......You have to turn on your ability to relax and remain calm until you have to go and when that time comes you do it. Strike first and strike hard with a brute force mentality. Like somebody else pointed out you go for the throat, the eyes, knees, groin with everything you have.

I personally like palm strikes, elbows, knees and short kicks here because I can throw them quickly and powerfully with less fear of injuring myself in the process. It is also imperative that you learn how to move and cover and train to throw strikes while moving and covering. This is where I like some of the things from Keysi system.

Obviously I feel you would be better off staying on your feet but if you get taken to the ground by multiple attackers focus on covering and getting back to your feet quickly

 

[Balrog]

The best strategies for dealing with multiples, in order from least to best:

• Take the initiative (attack first)
• Bring equal or greater number of friends (why is it only the bad guys that are allowed to have "multiples?")
• Superior weapons
• run-fu

In addition, I would add that one should try to stack the opponents. The worst place to be is the monkey-in-the-middle. I would pick one of my opponents and go after that person, trying to position him between me and the rest. That way, I can damage him and use him as an obstacle to the others while I pick out another one to stack.

 

[skribs]

Semi-related question: are there any combat sports that feature team-on-team instead of individuals?

 

[K-man]

Semi-related question: are there any combat sports that feature team-on-team instead of individuals?

Wasn't that what we were trying to do in Afghanistan?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I do remember some mates of mine who were black belts in zendokai saying to stand in a doorway if possible when fighting multiple attackers as that way they can only come one at a time.

 

[Chris Parker]

Semi-related question: are there any combat sports that feature team-on-team instead of individuals?

Football. And no, I'm not joking.

 

[donald1]

I can probably say this from personal experience or at least my experience with this don't let them surround you. In multiple sparing im no good at that keep getting hit a lot but when I got them all on one side I could get them individually instead of trying to tackle it as a whole (seemed a lot easier)

 

[skribs]

I do remember some mates of mine who were black belts in zendokai saying to stand in a doorway if possible when fighting multiple attackers as that way they can only come one at a time.

Sounds like a tactic used by the Spartans.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I do remember some mates of mine who were black belts in zendokai saying to stand in a doorway if possible when fighting multiple attackers as that way they can only come one at a time.

Actually we use to do a sparring drill like this where students took on multiple attacks while staying in between (guarding the doorway so to speak) two wavemasters.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Semi-related question: are there any combat sports that feature team-on-team instead of individuals?

State of origin. Australians will know what I mean

 

[Dirty Dog]

Semi-related question: are there any combat sports that feature team-on-team instead of individuals?

American football.
Rugby.
Hockey.
Hurling. This game was invented by the Irish. There was definitely booze involved....

 

[donald1]

Football. And no, I'm not joking.

I have to agree with Chris I've played football for 8 years I know that for a fact, good examples if you're on defense the whole defense line is out there to make sure the other side can't get by and possibly try drive them back some yards. As apposed to offense the team tries to protect the person with the ball from the other team so the ball runner can get by

No joke to it without teamwork you can't win football so it is team vs team