Limb Destruction

[geezer]

Maybe I should do it for real in real time Dumbass..

Uncivil comments like this do nothing to further the discussion. If you can't accept that others may disagree, you would probably be happier just posting on that other, "dead" WC forum where almost nobody ever responds to your threads. Sounds boring though. Personally, I'd prefer dealing with dissenting opinions.

BTW the professor (Vajramusti) has been doing WC for a very long time, and he is certainly no "dumbass"!

 

[KPM]

What prevents him from striking you in the chest or face with the opposite hand in this demonstration?
I understand striking the tsubo point however when done as in this demo you have just committed both hands/arm to one limb and his opposite hand is completely free as well as your hand on that side is committed and low. Why not Jum on the tsubo point and strike with the opposite arm? That will also put an object in the way of any strike with the free arm.

The simple fact that his structure is broken and he is bent over keeps him from striking with his other arm. This is a basic control in Dumog from FMA. I see nothing wrong with what he is showing. It is a little more indirect than we like to be in Wing Chun, but you can't always be as direct as you would like! I remember an article written by Hawkins Cheung many years ago. He showed how he would use the Lop Da motion against a bigger guy. Hawkins is rather small, so against a big guy he might not be able to reach with his punch. So he showed the follow up punch after the Lop Sau as a downward hammerfist to the guy's forearm....THEN he moved in to land the telling blows.

 

[Mephisto]

You can do much with a very compliant partner in videos

That's the problem I have with limb destruction techniques. Most of it is only demoed on compliant partners. I don't recall if I've ever seen it done in real time. It's one thing to have a cover that results in pain to the attacking limb, like an elbow to the instep of the foot against a poorly timed round house kick, it's another thing to attack an arm.

Maybe I should do it for real in real time Dumbass..

I think you should. But you probably can't. I've done limb destructions while sparring, they work on guys with bad timing who haphazardly throw strikes. But if your opponent out classes you you're not gonna see the shots coming, and the ones you do see are just there to set you up for the ones you don't see.

 

[drop bear]

That's the problem I have with limb destruction techniques. Most of it is only demoed on compliant partners. I don't recall if I've ever seen it done in real time. It's one thing to have a cover that results in pain to the attacking limb, like an elbow to the instep of the foot against a poorly timed round house kick, it's another thing to attack an arm.


I think you should. But you probably can't. I've done limb destructions while sparring, they work on guys with bad timing who haphazardly throw strikes. But if your opponent out classes you you're not gonna see the shots coming, and the ones you do see are just there to set you up for the ones you don't see.

See I have always considered limb destruction as something you do to their guard. Not trying to catch a shot out of mid air.

Otherwise if they were hangi g that

 

[Danny T]

The simple fact that his structure is broken and he is bent over keeps him from striking with his other arm. This is a basic control in Dumog from FMA. I see nothing wrong with what he is showing. It is a little more indirect than we like to be in Wing Chun, but you can't always be as direct as you would like! I remember an article written by Hawkins Cheung many years ago. He showed how he would use the Lop Da motion against a bigger guy. Hawkins is rather small, so against a big guy he might not be able to reach with his punch. So he showed the follow up punch after the Lop Sau as a downward hammerfist to the guy's forearm....THEN he moved in to land the telling blows.

On a compliant or completely untrained or unsuspecting opponent ok.
Pull this off in the manner it is shown on an opponent who is fighting back or at real time vs real punching and counter punching. Can this action be performed at real time on a person who is punching or countering? Yes it can, but not in the manner it is shown. One doesn't have to go hard or fast to demo but at least the timing, footwork, body positioning, and angle of attack should be proper. The opponent can be compliant for the demo but should also be attacking and countering properly in that when an action, such as in this video, is performed poorly or improperly even the untrained can see/tell what does or doesn't work and why. A simple forward movement with a Quan Sao action (which the attacker is actually giving by turning the arm as he stated in the video) will prevent the attack.

I understand wing chun and I understand dumog. I understand demoing. I also admire all who put themselves out in video for the criticism. In this demo I'll give it may work due to the simple mass difference of the two and the total compliance of the counter. But vs a real counter-attack I have to disagree and vs one who may have a weapon in either hand and is attacking; 'It ain't going to happen!"

 

[Vajramusti]

Maybe I should do it for real in real time Dumbass..

Dumbass? sic?

 

[geezer]

Dumbass? sic?

Yeah, that's his response. LOL ...Oh well, as for myself, I'd rather be a Smartass than a Dumbass!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

s for myself, I'd rather be a Smartass than a Dumbass!

Is there a movie that has a line, "Smart guy I like, Smartass I don't".

Since this thread didn't start with "What's your opinion on this?", this thread may intend to be an information thread and not intend to be an open discussion thread.

 

[drop bear]

Is there a movie that has a line, "Smart guy I like, Smartass I don't".

Since this thread didn't start with "What's your opinion on this?", this thread may intend to be an information thread and not intend to be an open discussion thread.

Two way conversation. Sorry that is how the internets works.

 

[Transk53]

Two way conversation. Sorry that is how the internets works.

Yep. Is it just me, but I think folks miss that. If you want banter, you have to know what that banter is.

 

[drop bear]

Yep. Is it just me, but I think folks miss that. If you want banter, you have to know what that banter is.

The Thing is the compliancy issue is a fair point here. In that I think you would have to move to make it work and you would get mabye a tenth of that effect. Which is fine. All you need is half a second and a fist size gap.

 

[Transk53]

The Thing is the compliancy issue is a fair point here. In that I think you would have to move to make it work and you would get mabye a tenth of that effect. Which is fine. All you need is half a second and a fist size gap.

Cool I was just talking general banter though!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Two way conversation. Sorry that is how the internets works.

Should we only give our opinions when someone asks for it?

 

[drop bear]

Should we only give our opinions when someone asks for it?

No. A conversation is two way. It should be expected that we give our opinion. Otherwise we are not really having a conversation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No. A conversation is two way. It should be expected that we give our opinion. Otherwise we are not really having a conversation.

Agree with you 100% there.

It just happens to me so many times. Whenever OP puts up a clip without a single word attached to it, I usually ask, "What do you intend to discuss in this thread?" The OP always responds as , "It's just information sharing and I don't intend to discuss anything."

 

[Transk53]

Should we only give our opinions when someone asks for it?

Er no. We should keep in mind. The opinion is when people listen to you. In my case, my team It is not Black and White

 

[Vajramusti]

Yeah, that's his response. LOL ...Oh well, as for myself, I'd rather be a Smartass than a Dumbass!

-----Perhaps he was talking to himself. BTW in the other forum- last time I checked several commentators made the same observation as I did.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS: Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Moderator-

 

[dlcox]

On a compliant or completely untrained or unsuspecting opponent ok.
Pull this off in the manner it is shown on an opponent who is fighting back or at real time vs real punching and counter punching. Can this action be performed at real time on a person who is punching or countering? Yes it can, but not in the manner it is shown. One doesn't have to go hard or fast to demo but at least the timing, footwork, body positioning, and angle of attack should be proper. The opponent can be compliant for the demo but should also be attacking and countering properly in that when an action, such as in this video, is performed poorly or improperly even the untrained can see/tell what does or doesn't work and why. A simple forward movement with a Quan Sao action (which the attacker is actually giving by turning the arm as he stated in the video) will prevent the attack.

I understand wing chun and I understand dumog. I understand demoing. I also admire all who put themselves out in video for the criticism. In this demo I'll give it may work due to the simple mass difference of the two and the total compliance of the counter. But vs a real counter-attack I have to disagree and vs one who may have a weapon in either hand and is attacking; 'It ain't going to happen!"

I tend to agree with Danny T here, though others such as KPM and the OP, I can see where they are coming from. Personally I like to enter from the outside in, creating a 45 degree angle when attempting to "catch" the limb. This allows me to use Bi Ma (Pressing Horse) and Kao (Bump) principles to facilitate in controlling the opponents incoming force and allowing for the opportunity to "catch" the limb before applying a destruction via forearm, elbow, shoulder, ribs etc. Most often when in close I will employ both hands on one limb from the outside angle, avoiding the power side, as a means of increasing my chances of grabbing the limb and use my ribs or waist to apply pressure to their elbow while my free hand strikes from their blind side. This proximity also allows me to use Chi Jiao techniques on the outside of their knee as well. For me it is a safe entry to an aggressive attack that keeps me covered up and allows me to stop the attack dead in it's tracks. It's not a graceful method but it works. Generally I use what we call our Bi Ma (Pressing Horse) position (Kind of like Crab position in Boxing), it is similar to a wrestlers stance with more of a 45 degree angle. It illustrates the old adage "Wrestle a Boxer, Box a Wrestler".

I should have also mentioned that this, the interception, catch, control + limb destruction & hit, can all be accomplished in one motion. Unfortunately this isn't always the case, so use of the Bi Ma position allows for follow up and variation when things go south. This is due largely to stopping the opponents advance in its tracks, which allows you to initiate your own push. Once their momentum is broke they cannot continue to "Steamroll" and have to start their advance over, usually from a different direction and now while countering your assault from their weak or blind side.

Its a tactic I've seen in some branches of Yongchun. George Foreman used a similar method called Crab style and it is a method employed frequently in Wrestling as well as a major entry technique of Bai He Pai.

 

[futsaowingchun]

But that is not what he showed or performed the moves.
As shown the opponent does nothing with the free arm and also doesn't move or do anything to reacquire the centerline.
We also look at most all moves as though it was vs an opponent with a weapon. This would fail badly vs a knife in the opposite hand.

the way i demo the video is not the way I might apply it. I only showed a simple example to just get the point across.