SageGhost83
Brown Belt
How many limb destructions have you been able to spot in the 26 "basic" katas, and which ones are your favorites? I personally love the one at the opening of Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan. Well, fire away.
Limb Destructions, Kata, and You
- Thread starter SageGhost83
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Which limb destruction tech are you referring to in the earliest moves of Pinan Shodan, SG?
OP
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #3
I am referring to the opening middle block/rising block combo. The first three arm movements.
That's what I figured. But I don't see the limb destruction here. I go with Iain Abernethy's bunkai here: attacker and defender are face to face; the rising block deflects the punch upwards; the middle block, associated with a 90º turn of the middle-blocking arm side towards the attacker, rams the defender's other arm under the attacker's deflected punching arm. The defender has shifted his `rising blocking' arm so it sits on top of the attacker's original punching arm, which is now hyperextended at the shoulder around the fulcrum created by the defender's so-called middle block. The `uppercut' isn't a punch at all, but a trapping move shoving the defender's punching forarm around the defender's middle blocking forearm, which pulls in to complete the trap; the attacker's punching is now completely trapped in a hyperextended position, and all the defender has to do is rotate his outside hip in toward the attacker and the latter will be forced down. The follow-up punch is an alternative move, a throat strike, if tthe original trap fails for whatever reason.
The bunkai here is realistic: it assumes a face-to-face confrontation position; it works close-up; once the punch is thrown, the attacker's responses are completely forced; and it uses large-muscle responses exclusively, with a very wide margin of error.
Before you write back about this, check out the following e-article by Abernethy himself at his website, in which he talks about this particular kata subsequence and the bunkai I've described in quite a bit of detail, with excellent photos and an explanation of why the `standard' bunkai interpretation for the sequence you're referring to makes little or no sense in terms of practical combat application.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/BasicBunkaiPart6.asp
I'd be very interested in hearing your impression of IA's story.
OP
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #5
Ah, I see. Nice catch, exile. All of this time I was taught that the opening sequence was a limb destruction that supposedly was used to crack the elbow joint and finish with a strike to the throat. The good thing about forums like this is that there are people who can correct you on these matters and give you insight that you lacked. That is certainly the case for me. BTW, the article was awesome. Do you know where I can pick up any of his books? And what is your favorite application within the katas?
OP
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #6
.....well, never mind. There is a link right there on the page. Pardon my brain fart.:lol:
Keep in mind that Abernathy's bunkai isn't the end all be all application. The way you were taught may be just as viable a technique.
And as far as "limb destruction" goes, in the provided link it looks like the uki is going to suffer severe elbow and shoulder damage if the technique is done with force. It doesn't get too much more limb destructive than that...
And as far as "limb destruction" goes, in the provided link it looks like the uki is going to suffer severe elbow and shoulder damage if the technique is done with force. It doesn't get too much more limb destructive than that...
One of Abernethy's main tenets is that there is invariably more than a single effective bunkai, but given the number of subsequences in the kata, there's no way to give more than one or two for each of them without having to do a separate book for each kata. And yes, there will be serious damage to uke if the tech is done with force and uke resists. Since I've worked with this particular tech as both tori and uke, I know that if it's done successfully, I'm gonna do whatever tori want, mostly go to the ground. But that's true of any controlling move, including aikido techs which aren't generally considered to be limb-destroying. I was taking `limb destruction' here to refer to a tech whose primary intended effect isn't establishment of control, but rather at least temporary anatomical damage sufficient to make the limb useless—a low, hard side kick to the side of the knee joint, for example. Possibly this is my own idiosyncrasy, but to me a move described as inflicting `limb damage' suggests an injury whose extent is not within the recipient's control and which is the immediate, inevitable result of application of the tech.
The cool thing about IA's site is that it has a ton of these terrific technical articles and a good deal of back-and-forth on application issues, and these e-books, all for free, with no strings attached at all. None. I've never quite understood the economics of it...
Of all his things, I think his book Bunkai-jutsu: The Practical Application of Karate Kata, is the most comprehensive and inspiring, but everything I've read by him is carefully thought out, well-presented (which isn't always the case in technical karate discussions, alas) and very open-minded and nondogmatic. Did you find all those articles on his home page, at www.iainabernethy.com? There's enough contentful reading matter there to keep anyone occupied for a year or so. His stuff really opened up the whole subject of kata for me. A lot of people in related MAs, like Simon O'Neil, have applied his methods to the analysis of Taekwondo hyungs—basically, reorganizations of parts of Shotokan kata, for the most part—and there's a whole movement in the UK to bring back the role of kata in structuring a street-effective karate curriculum, which many of the authors whose articles he makes available are involved in.
And if that limb destruction application works -- it's equally valid. Many techniques and sections of kata can have multiple, equally valid applications or bunkai depending on the instructor and precise situation.
Chizikunbo
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I was always taught that Pinan Nidan was more of an escape from bear hug type of technique...Oyata Sensei has taught it that way often. However, anyone movement should have at least 10 REAL applications, and in theory thousands of variants.
Although my favorite would be Taikyoku Shodan or Pinan Shodan, the low defense, followed by middle punch...LOL Folks never get me on that one, but if we move out of the box and see that Karate is not just a linear striking art we can see these types of interpretation. Lets take Taikyoku Shodan for example, an opponent throws a middle punch, you chamber for the low defense, warding the attack, now perform the low defense, keeping contact on the punching arm riding it down in a crescent arc (because the body moves naturally in a circle shape) now when the position for the completed movement is almost done, seize the opponents wrist (its still a low defense ;-) ) step up and middle "punch" between the limb and body, keeping firm grasp on opponents wrist. As you chamber for the next low defense begin to lock the arm, on the elbow and wrist, the left hand comes up to (chamber under the elbow), turn, step out, and perform the low defense, all pressure goes on the wrist and elbow joints, from here you can hyper extend, or break one or both joints, as well as move into a throw, your next middle punch would be delivered to the exposed floating ribs, and your then left forward foot, could trap the opponents foot, pretty well leaving him on the arm with a broken elbow, cracked or broken ribs, and gasping for air...to me that gives ya time to get away, and I believe these types of techniques to be the true Shuri applications, quick and effective ;-)
--josh
Although my favorite would be Taikyoku Shodan or Pinan Shodan, the low defense, followed by middle punch...LOL Folks never get me on that one, but if we move out of the box and see that Karate is not just a linear striking art we can see these types of interpretation. Lets take Taikyoku Shodan for example, an opponent throws a middle punch, you chamber for the low defense, warding the attack, now perform the low defense, keeping contact on the punching arm riding it down in a crescent arc (because the body moves naturally in a circle shape) now when the position for the completed movement is almost done, seize the opponents wrist (its still a low defense ;-) ) step up and middle "punch" between the limb and body, keeping firm grasp on opponents wrist. As you chamber for the next low defense begin to lock the arm, on the elbow and wrist, the left hand comes up to (chamber under the elbow), turn, step out, and perform the low defense, all pressure goes on the wrist and elbow joints, from here you can hyper extend, or break one or both joints, as well as move into a throw, your next middle punch would be delivered to the exposed floating ribs, and your then left forward foot, could trap the opponents foot, pretty well leaving him on the arm with a broken elbow, cracked or broken ribs, and gasping for air...to me that gives ya time to get away, and I believe these types of techniques to be the true Shuri applications, quick and effective ;-)
--josh
chinto
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well most of the kata have limb destruction in them if you look, just as they have other trama cousing techniques in the same place again if you look. just look at the first moves of seisan, there are multiple limb destructions there if you look for them. please remember that the people who created the kata for the okinawan systems were looking at any fight as a life or death altercation. as to my favorite not sure really there are so meany.
OP
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #12
Yeah, that is a bit open-ended, so I'll change the question. What is your favorite limb destruction within the standard katas and why? Have fun with it.
Whose "standard kata?" They aren't all the same across different styles of karate... and it gets even harder if you consider other martial arts...
OP
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
- Thread Starter
- #14
The 26 basic kata from shotokan karate. I am using shotokan because it is supposedly the most widely practiced version of karate. However, if you don't practice shotokan, then feel free to substitute the katas of your own style. So I will change the question again: What is your favorite limb destruction within *your* standard katas and why?
chinto
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I think at this second its in the the begaining of kusanku dai. the block, trap, and drop to shiko dachi and brake in it. ( this is the tamari te verson of kusanku dai) nasty brake and still traped so you own the person still. but, who knows, tomarow might be some diferent one. :-D
I am not aware of any traditional ryu's version of Kushanku with a drop to shiko at the beginning.
chinto
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thank you for catching that.. late night and i was brain dead.. i was refering to passai dai actualy. sorry but one of those brain fart moments i guess.. learning the kusanku and passai kata all at once and add a late night with insomnia and i screwed up on that one. sorry folks.. its passia dai i was refering to. thanks for catching that for me cstanley.
Ray B
Green Belt
IMO, the mark of good ohyo, (applications) is that it can be used to go to both the inside
and outside of uke. It should only be 3 or 4 moves long and leave uke incapacitated.
The reason for my line of thinking is in my Ryuha, (Shorin-ryu) if you spend too much
time with an attacker, the King was left unprotected. Better to dispatch the agressor
and get back to who you are supposed to be protecting than roll on the ground.
My ohyo for Pinan Shodan is similar to I.A.'s but instead of a right, left combination,
it starts out with a same arm wrist grab to tori's right arm. The Jodan (right) arm is a
reverse hold and the left arm (chudan soto uke) hyperextends the attacker's left arm.
The rest is the same but the advantage of my version is that it works for a grab,
push to the right shoulder and a left jab, (Trap then manipulation) as well as
a cross grab where the chudan soto uke becomes a chudan uchi uke.
Also, the punch can turn into a throat grab then take down so not only do you dislocate
the shoulder, but you can also suffocate them.
Your ohyo should not depend on too many attacks from uke. In my decription above,
it defends against a single grab/push/punch with out a follow-up technique from uke.
Again, my reasoning is too many predetermined attacks become unrealistic. I like to keep
it down to 2 maybe 3.
Mr. Abernathy has inspired me to look deeper within my system rather than going
to the outside like so many other MA's. I am not saying that you should not look
into other Ryuha (BJJ, JJJ, Aikido) but rather, take what you have found and look
for it in your kata. Another good book on Bunkai, (Analysis of kata) is
"The Way of Kata" by L. Kane and K. Wilder. Of course, there is always
Mr. McCarthy's stuff.
We will never know what the creator's of kata ment for every move. The best we
can do is use the system to make sense of our Karate.
Also, keep in mind that there are tiers/layers of ohyo. The primary ohyo keeps the
shape and form of the kata. i.e. block, block, punch. (Pinan Shodan opening)
The secondary stuff is like what is being discussed. Trap, grab, break. (same opening)
Sorry to be so long winded.
Peace.
and outside of uke. It should only be 3 or 4 moves long and leave uke incapacitated.
The reason for my line of thinking is in my Ryuha, (Shorin-ryu) if you spend too much
time with an attacker, the King was left unprotected. Better to dispatch the agressor
and get back to who you are supposed to be protecting than roll on the ground.
My ohyo for Pinan Shodan is similar to I.A.'s but instead of a right, left combination,
it starts out with a same arm wrist grab to tori's right arm. The Jodan (right) arm is a
reverse hold and the left arm (chudan soto uke) hyperextends the attacker's left arm.
The rest is the same but the advantage of my version is that it works for a grab,
push to the right shoulder and a left jab, (Trap then manipulation) as well as
a cross grab where the chudan soto uke becomes a chudan uchi uke.
Also, the punch can turn into a throat grab then take down so not only do you dislocate
the shoulder, but you can also suffocate them.
Your ohyo should not depend on too many attacks from uke. In my decription above,
it defends against a single grab/push/punch with out a follow-up technique from uke.
Again, my reasoning is too many predetermined attacks become unrealistic. I like to keep
it down to 2 maybe 3.
Mr. Abernathy has inspired me to look deeper within my system rather than going
to the outside like so many other MA's. I am not saying that you should not look
into other Ryuha (BJJ, JJJ, Aikido) but rather, take what you have found and look
for it in your kata. Another good book on Bunkai, (Analysis of kata) is
"The Way of Kata" by L. Kane and K. Wilder. Of course, there is always
Mr. McCarthy's stuff.
We will never know what the creator's of kata ment for every move. The best we
can do is use the system to make sense of our Karate.
Also, keep in mind that there are tiers/layers of ohyo. The primary ohyo keeps the
shape and form of the kata. i.e. block, block, punch. (Pinan Shodan opening)
The secondary stuff is like what is being discussed. Trap, grab, break. (same opening)
Sorry to be so long winded.
Peace.
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