Legalize Drugs to Stop Violence

[Bill Mattocks]

Really? When's the last time you saw somebody prostituting themselves on the street corner so they can afford their next toke?

Yep. And burglarizing houses, and shoplifting, and etc, etc, etc.

To be fair, I've seen them do it for booze, too.

And yes, I know that *most* pot smokers don't do that. But some do.

But to answer your question - yes, I've seen it. I've had family members who turned tricks for whatever they could get their hands on, from weed to beers to glue in a paper sack.

 

[MA-Caver]

First thought? Jeffery A. Miron should change his name to Jeffery A. Moron.

Really? When's the last time you saw somebody prostituting themselves on the street corner so they can afford their next toke?

Read the following while knowing I support the decriminalization of pot.

I do disagree with his postulation about the health concerns. For marijuana users the health concerns are direct. Have a toke, lose a few brain cells. The damages don't go much beyond that (Ok, it's a little more than that, but still nowhere near as bad as processed tobacco). And if you smoke pot (and I do occasionally) you have brain cells to spare, since you're not using them.

Mister Moron's commentary deals only with direct cause/effect at the upper levels of the chain. Sure, legalize all drugs and the amount of gang wars may go down, but there will be no reduction of drug-related crime when talking about the users. Hell, it may even go up as taxation may make it less affordable for the common crack-whore. B&E's, assaults: they won't go down. People will still need money to buy the crap, and if they use it to any real degree they'll be useless in the workforce.

Hello prostitution and street level violence.

Sounds like Mr Moron-ahem- Miron is related to Cliff Clavin from Cheers...

Well ya see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we know, kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.

It's that type of rationalization/justification/minimizing that we're facing here with those who want to legalized drugs.

 

[Scott T]

Yep. And burglarizing houses, and shoplifting, and etc, etc, etc.

To be fair, I've seen them do it for booze, too.

And yes, I know that *most* pot smokers don't do that. But some do.

But to answer your question - yes, I've seen it. I've had family members who turned tricks for whatever they could get their hands on, from weed to beers to glue in a paper sack.

I've read your earlier post before I wrote the above and I truly hope the kid is safe now.

But yeah, I may have phrased it wrong as I was talking about pot-only users. You get addicted to things like crack or heroin, you'll do whatever it takes to get anything that'll give you a high, no matter how small.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I've read your earlier post before I wrote the above and I truly hope the kid is safe now.

But yeah, I may have phrased it wrong as I was talking about pot-only users. You get addicted to things like crack or heroin, you'll do whatever it takes to get anything that'll give you a high, no matter how small.

She is 21 years old, a Corpsman in the US Navy, and she delivers babies at a naval hospital. That's the good part. The bad part is she is unmarried and a mommy, and her own mother still has a big part in her life - and yes, her mother is still a drug user and all-around criminal, not to be trusted. Her two younger sisters have each had a child of their own - both under the age of 15. Her youngest sibling, a half-brother, has vanished and no one knows where he is.

The damage inflicted by my relative will reverberate for generations.

 

[Scott T]

She is 21 years old, a Corpsman in the US Navy, and she delivers babies at a naval hospital. That's the good part. The bad part is she is unmarried and a mommy, and her own mother still has a big part in her life - and yes, her mother is still a drug user and all-around criminal, not to be trusted. Her two younger sisters have each had a child of their own - both under the age of 15. Her youngest sibling, a half-brother, has vanished and no one knows where he is.

The damage inflicted by my relative will reverberate for generations.

Unless you say go for it, I'll assume this subject is a little too personal to continue to discuss on an open forum. Or to discuss with someone you don't even know.

 

[Deaf Smith]

are there more or less moonshine runners now compared to the prohibition era? also, it was my understanding that the moonshine trade primarily flourished in dry counties.

i don't know any stats off hand; does anyone know about crime rates in the netherlands? they have pretty permissive drug laws, but i don't hear of a lot of drug-related violence. it seems like that would be a good place to look for a comparison.

jf

I'm sure there is less moonshine running but it is still there. Same for other types of smuggling.

And as for Netherlands, tell me, what does the Netherlands produce? What is their GNP? What is their trade percentage. Sad thing about drugs is they sap the will to do anything (except take drugs.) There is far more damage than just crime. Far more.

Deaf

 

[elder999]

I'm sure there is less moonshine running but it is still there. Same for other types of smuggling.

Big on reservations, believe it or not.......almost as big as meth and huffing......

And as for Netherlands, tell me, what does the Netherlands produce? What is their GNP? What is their trade percentage. Sad thing about drugs is they sap the will to do anything (except take drugs.) There is far more damage than just crime. Far more.

Deaf

\

Interstingly, it was Phillips-a Dutch company-that invented CD technology. They couldn't figure out what to do with it, though, licensed it to SONY and the rest is history....

Additionally, from the Netherlands Wikipage:

The Netherlands has the 16th largest economy in the world, and ranks 10th in GDP (nominal) per capita.

] Unemployment is at 4.0% of the labour force. By Eurostat standards however, unemployment in the Netherlands is at only 2.9% - the lowest rate of all European Union member states

Pretty productive place, really.....

 

[Sukerkin]

And the Dutch really know how to have a good time.

Trust me on this, I know . We Limeys pride ourselves on our ability to down a pint or two and I can hold my own when it comes to having a drink but having spent a night on the tiles with a bunch of Dutch guys last year ... :drinkbeer:barf:.

They were right as rain the next day .

 

[Gordon Nore]

An interesting, and well-voiced editorial on CNN today, worth a read:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/24/miron.legalization.drugs/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Thoughts? Opinions?

The current discussion of legalization has been framed around the issue of violent Mexican drug cartels and their proximity to the US. That seems to be the tipping point that has people talking about the issue. I question some of Miron's reasoning around the issue of violence. He mentions gambling, prostitution, and drugs in his analysis.

Violence and other maladaptive behaviours are a consequence of addiction or simply abuse of substances. Would it be better to turn to health care and education in response to addictions, rather than prohibition and incarceration? I believe it would. To me though, it becomes a question of whether a society is willing switch horses and invest in treatment rather than prosecution.

I guess the focus right now is Marijuana and the prospect of governments both legalizing and licensing the product for sale. I'm fine with that. Alcoholics and social drinkers shop at our government-run liquor stores. I don't see a difference in that regard. To me, beer is as much a gateway drug as pot.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

If you de-criminalize drugs, then you would actually have room to imprison burglars and thieves for a considerable amount of time.

Maybe that might be a deterent, ya think???

 

[Deaf Smith]

elder,

And who is 1st, 2nd, 3ed, 4th, 5th,.... 15th? Do they have the same laws as in Netherlands as for as drugs?

And besides the CDs, what else? Do you want me to list the U.S.A.'s accomplishments? Or those other 15 top GNP countries?

Deaf

 

[Sukerkin]

You might not want to follow that through too far, DS, as I have no doubt that most of what you are thinking of as 'American' accomplishments are actually European ones.

It may have been American (fake) money that made a lot of late C20th inventons happen but the brains the ideas were born in were German, British, Dutch et al.

Given that, it is a real stretch to claim such things as American. After all, whose painting is it? The Medici or Da Vinci's? That prinicple applies to all great advances of art and science.

 

[jarrod]

plus i don't think we're in a position right now to criticize someone else's over-all production.

for myself though, i find it easier to be productive when i'm free to enjoy my time off as i see fit.

jf

 

[Twin Fist]

the problem i have with this whole thing, is it smacks of "Gee, it's just too hard to enforce the law, lets change the law"

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

the problem i have with this whole thing, is it smacks of "Gee, it's just too hard to enforce the law, lets change the law"

It could also smack of people should have the power to ruin their lives if they want. Also, it could be about the fact that street violence is reduced when people aren't criminalized for making and providing for personal lifestyle choices.

 

[Twin Fist]

but people doing drugs also costs, and it costs LIVES as well as all the associated crime that goes with addiction

 

[Jimi]

I hope some can understand that such crimes in all human society (B&E, Assualt, Thieft, Prostitution, Rape etc..) have existed way before MAN'S LAW to make any substance illegal. It is not purely a drug violence issue, man has committed such acts against others & even their own for more than a thousand years. Removing all DRUGS from our planet will no more rid us of violence than if we legalize or decrimialize all DRUGS. It is a human condition of personal faults, not that a DRUG has a mind of it's own and seeks out our beloved family members to hurt us all. When terrible things like that happen (What Bills Family had to face) , I blame the Man (Or Woman) invovled, not any drug that is also in the mix. These terrible things happen in most all human society, and they also happen without drugs present as well.
Some people are curious about possible medical applications from DRUGS such as Cocaine (Doctors use liquid cocaine during treatment of some sinus/septum issues) as well as Opium (Moraphine as used by Doctors to treat servre pain) and Marijuana (Can help Doctors treat several health issues) But I feel too many people are on a personal quest to punish drug dealers, so an understanding & compromise to find something usefull from these substances is lost.
Most who are for the legalization of Marijuana are also against the Hypocracey (BS) by our own leaders conducting corrupt law practices & enforcement of corrupt laws, that is where a lot of hippies stand (Stoned as they are, they have an honest gripe) and want to see their government honestly uphold reasonable law. Most hippies I know would gladly & non-violently pay their Marijuana tax, but we know that this is impossible because the laws currently on the books are not fair or reasonable (Relating to Herb that is) . I do not feel that decrimializing or legalizing Marijuana will stop violence, but killing drug dealers as explicitly expressed by Bill is not stopping violence either, as a matter of fact, it gives anger & violence a place to anchor it's self in our society. People kill each other over food & water as well, so violence for possession of anything is a human fault & should not be blamed on the substance it's self.
People kill each other in this nation over stupid materialistic possessions,( it is a disrespect for life issue not the item or possesssion issue) near DC years ago, a teenager demanded that someone in a theater give him his Air Jordans, when denied he stabbed thet guy to death & fled without getting the item of dispute. Also years ago on the Metro Rail in DC, another teenager demanded someones leather jacket, again when denied, the kid shot the man wearing the jacket to death and fled without the item of despute. Our society has serious issue with violence, some relating directly to drug trafficing & some having nothing to do with it at all.
To end violence related to any Drug is not solved by the "Lets kill them all" attitude. I also believe that such violence is not solved by the "Make it all legal" attitude either. Such an issue is a GORDIAN KNOT to be solved, and it will not be easy. Unless you take Alexander The Greats (And Bills attitude) draw your sword and cut it to shreads.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

but people doing drugs also costs, and it costs LIVES as well as all the associated crime that goes with addiction

Every decision has a cost. It just depends on what nature of cost you are referring to, in addition to lives.

I, nor the government, am not responsible for the lifestyle choices that an individual makes. If that were the case, I got a whole lot of legislation that I could give you that would prevent the loss of lives. Of course, you probably would not want to live with the consequences.

But that's why I said that if drugs were made legal, even if there is an associated crime (such as burglary, theft, or robbery) you can incarcerate drug users for that, which are the crimes which actually affect other people. In fact, since there will be more beds available in correction facilities because you are not locking up drug users, you can keep them longer, both in completing their full sentences, and institution larger penalties.

 

[jim777]

the problem i have with this whole thing, is it smacks of "Gee, it's just too hard to enforce the law, lets change the law"

"The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this." Albert Einstein

Pot needs to be legalized, and should never have been made illegal in the first place. I'm thinking it will be fully legal in at least one state in the next 5 years, and another 10 in the ten years following those 5.

 

[Sukerkin]

Leaving aside some rather disturbing religious overtones (I'm an atheist, sorry) in Jimi's post above, he makes some decent points about the practicalities of what might be termed 'responsible' drug use. Jim77 backs those points up with the very real problems of enforcing the unenforceable.