When recreational drugs are legal...

[Bill Mattocks]

In Michigan, several drugs have not yet been outlawed (or were legal at the time of the crime below) including 'Spice', a form of synthetic marijuana. Many have argued for the legalization of drugs on the basis that crimes will decrease. I disagree.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...ed-family-slaughter-witness-article-1.1084339

A 19-year-old Michigan man charged with trying to bludgeon his entire family to death in a bid to steal money for drugs is accused of methodically divvying up his victims with a friend.

Tucker Cipriano and Mitchell (Roderick) Young, 20, plotted who would kill whom from Cipriano’s family, a witness said in court on Wednesday.

...

Zinderman was offered immunity from prosecution in exchange for his testimony against his friends.

On the night of the attack, Zinderman admits, he helped Cipriano rob the family twice — to find money to purchase “Spice,” or synthetic marijuana.

But he says he wasn’t part of the murderous attack hours later.

The motive behind the plan was money, Zinderman said. Cipriano and Young wanted to get cash and valuables to sell to fund their drug habits — and Zinderman said he was supposed to get one-third of the cut.

http://spinalcolumnonline.com/lethal-and-legal-concerns-about-spice-raised-in-w-oakland/

A relatively new drug is enticing teens to spice up their lives and try a new high. The street drug Spice produces powerful and mind-altering effects and is considered by some to be more detrimental to those using it than marijuana. The distribution and use of this synthetic cannabis is making many wonder how can this drug legally be sold in convenience stores in Michigan as an incense, especially when it is considered so destructive and addictive? In addition, some are asking where the public outcry is.

According to the National Institute of Drug Abuse (NIDA), Spice describes a diverse family of herbal mixtures that are also marketed as K2, fake marijuana, Yucatan Fire, Skunk, Moon Rocks, and others. Each product contains dried, shredded plant material and chemical additives that are responsible for psychoactive effects and mimic tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the active ingredient in marijuana.

Spice has emerged as a popular, legal alternative to marijuana among teenagers and college students alike. According to the NIDA’s “Monitoring the Future” survey conducted for the first time in 2011, 11.4 percent of high school seniors in the U.S. reported using Spice in the past year. It ranks as the second most frequently used illegal drug among this same demographic, the institute reported.

Moreover, poison control center calls were flooded with calls related to Spice and K2 in 2011, doubling from the previous year. To illustrate that point, just a week ago, three teens were hospitalized with kidney failure and a dozen others experienced vomiting and back pain in Wyoming in an outbreak linked to “blueberry Spice.”

...

A number of states have passed bans on Spice and its derivatives, and many others are considering legislation prohibiting the sale or possession of Spice. In Michigan, however, the drug is still legal due to manufacturers finding loopholes in legislation.

I think the notion that if drugs are legal, then addicts won't commit crimes to get them is absurd. They'll do anything to get their drugs, including killing their own families. The fact that the drugs are legal or illegal means nothing - they want them, they'll kill to get them. Legalizing drugs doesn't solve problems.

 

[MA-Caver]

Synthetic marijuana has now been linked to the "zombie attack" in Florida.
It's like the acid (LSD) they are manufacturing today... just a bunch of chemicals that'll mess up the already messed up brain.

I predict that at least (real) marijuana will end up being legalized. There's nothing better that a domineering... excuse me, aspiring government wants than having a population placid and too baked to care or do anything about the "change" they're wanting to effect upon said population.

We're in a downward spiral... 25 years from now none of this will really matter.

Hopefully I'll be dead by then.

 

[granfire]

I don't think you can go by that.
Cocaine and LSD were legal at one point until the damage they were doing became obvious.
Spice was never meant to be smoked. I actually have no idea what it was meant to be. but it is very dangerous. Weed isn't.

For comparrison, you should probably pull up drunk driving and multiple DUIs...including the cases that cause fatal wrecks....

or smokers who start wild fires by tossing butts out their car windows....

I don't think Spice will be legal for long.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't think you can go by that.
Cocaine and LSD were legal at one point until the damage they were doing became obvious.
Spice was never meant to be smoked. I actually have no idea what it was meant to be. but it is very dangerous. Weed isn't.

For comparrison, you should probably pull up drunk driving and multiple DUIs...including the cases that cause fatal wrecks....

or smokers who start wild fires by tossing butts out their car windows....

I don't think Spice will be legal for long.

I think you're missing the point. It's not what people DO under the influence of Spice and similar drugs. The point is that they will kill to buy drugs - legal or illegal. So legalizing it doesn't change the criminal activities people will engage in to get it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well we know that when they made Alcohol illegal there was no increase in crime, and no decrease when they legalized it again.

Right Buggsy?

Buggsy?

Well, that's a lousy Valentines Day surprise.

 

[ballen0351]

Synthetic marijuana has now been linked to the "zombie attack" in Florida.
It's like the acid (LSD) they are manufacturing today... just a bunch of chemicals that'll mess up the already messed up brain.

Hopefully I'll be dead by then.

Lab tests detected only marijuana in the system of a Florida man shot while chewing another man's face, the medical examiner said Tuesday, ruling out other street drugs including the components typically found in the stimulants known as bath salts.

 

[granfire]

I think you're missing the point. It's not what people DO under the influence of Spice and similar drugs. The point is that they will kill to buy drugs - legal or illegal. So legalizing it doesn't change the criminal activities people will engage in to get it.

well true, but just because it is so new that the laws have not caught up with it yet does not make the case to keep weed illegal....

and there is enough going on when an alcoholic needs his fix. Alas, it's relatively cheap to get - since it is legal - and available in regular stores.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

well true, but just because it is so new that the laws have not caught up with it yet does not make the case to keep weed illegal....

and there is enough going on when an alcoholic needs his fix. Alas, it's relatively cheap to get - since it is legal - and available in regular stores.

Yes, actually it does. Pretend I didn't say 'Spice'. Pretend I said 'booze'. The point is that when addicts need their fix, they commit crimes to get it. It does not matter if the drug is legal or illegal. If pot is legal, addicts will commit crimes to get it. Period. So yes, it does make the case to keep weed illegal, if the argument is that legalizing it will stop the crime associated with it. It demonstrably won't.

 

[crushing]

In Michigan, several drugs have not yet been outlawed (or were legal at the time of the crime below) including 'Spice', a form of synthetic marijuana. Many have argued for the legalization of drugs on the basis that crimes will decrease. I disagree.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...ed-family-slaughter-witness-article-1.1084339

I can't help but wonder if they were they using the legal and likely dangerous so-called 'synthetic marijuana' because natural marijuana is illegal.

 

[ballen0351]

I can't help but wonder if they were they using the legal and likely dangerous so-called 'synthetic marijuana' because natural marijuana is illegal.

I cant help but wonder why people drink nail polish remover or hair spray when beer is legal

 

[Makalakumu]

Yes, actually it does. Pretend I didn't say 'Spice'. Pretend I said 'booze'. The point is that when addicts need their fix, they commit crimes to get it. It does not matter if the drug is legal or illegal. If pot is legal, addicts will commit crimes to get it. Period. So yes, it does make the case to keep weed illegal, if the argument is that legalizing it will stop the crime associated with it. It demonstrably won't.

The argument is that it will reduce crime associated with it. We still have crime that involves alcohol, but it is nowhere near what it was when it was prohibited.

 

[ballen0351]

The argument is that it will reduce crime associated with it. We still have crime that involves alcohol, but it is nowhere near what it was when it was prohibited.

The level of addiction and withdraw symptoms making people seek out the drugs and do anyhting they can to get it including murder, and robbery are much stronger for say Heroin then for Beer also.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The argument is that it will reduce crime associated with it. We still have crime that involves alcohol, but it is nowhere near what it was when it was prohibited.

No, the argument has been that if drugs are legalized, people won't have to steal and commit other crimes to get the money to pay for it. Spice apparently costs about $35 in Michigan and is legal. And kids murder their parents to get the money to buy it. I think the argument that people won't break the law to obtain drugs if they are legal is invalid.

And 'reduce crime' is interesting. So you're saying it's OK that this kid murdered his parents - because if Spice was illegal, we'd have more murders? Not seeing the logic there.

 

[Makalakumu]

The level of addiction and withdraw symptoms making people seek out the drugs and do anyhting they can to get it including murder, and robbery are much stronger for say Heroin then for Beer also.

Dude, we have detox centers all over the place. We have battered women shelters that take care of families who have been driven off the cliff by booze. Different drugs different problems.

When they are illegal, however, we have the same problems. Criminal gangs dominate the market, they kill rivals, they use the money to corrupt everyone including the police, the government gets involved with the business to fund stuff they can't get people to vote for, the price goes way up, addicts rape steal and murder to get fixes, etc. It's a **** storm and it's way way way worse than if it was simply legalized.

Consequently, all kinds of governments are finally realizing this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4791099...uguay-aims-legalize-oversee-marijuana-market/

President Jose Mujica's leftist government will send a bill to Congress shortly on this as part of a package of measures to fight crime in the South American country.


The government will also urge that marijuana sales be legalized worldwide, Defense Minister Eleuterio Fernandez Huidobro said, adding the measure could discourage the use of so-called hard drugs.


Marijuana consumption is already legal in Uruguay.

I guess some taxpayers got tired of paying for all of the public employees associated with "drug wars" and crap...

 

[Makalakumu]

No, the argument has been that if drugs are legalized, people won't have to steal and commit other crimes to get the money to pay for it. Spice apparently costs about $35 in Michigan and is legal. And kids murder their parents to get the money to buy it. I think the argument that people won't break the law to obtain drugs if they are legal is invalid.

People will still steal and kill to get all kinds of things. Should we ban them all?

And 'reduce crime' is interesting. So you're saying it's OK that this kid murdered his parents - because if Spice was illegal, we'd have more murders? Not seeing the logic there.

If spice was illegal, it would be like any other illegal drug, more people would get killed for it. If it were legal, it would be like other legal drugs, some people get killed for it, but you'd have detox centers, you'd have battered women's shelters, you'd have all kinds of interventions in place that would help alleviate some of the problems. Crime is not totally going to go away, but it gets reduced.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

People will still steal and kill to get all kinds of things. Should we ban them all?

If they're drugs like Spice, yes.

If spice was illegal, it would be like any other illegal drug, more people would get killed for it. If it were legal, it would be like other legal drugs, some people get killed for it, but you'd have detox centers, you'd have battered women's shelters, you'd have all kinds of interventions in place that would help alleviate some of the problems. Crime is not totally going to go away, but it gets reduced.

OK, so you explain to the surviving kids that it's OK that their brother killed their parents and tried to kill them, because it's less than it might have been.

 

[ballen0351]

Dude, we have detox centers all over the place. We have battered women shelters that take care of families who have been driven off the cliff by booze. Different drugs different problems.

Dude we have drug treatment programs everywhere. We have methodone clinics all over the place. We have court order drug diversion classes and court ordered treatment. I spent alot of mine time when I was in the Drug game helping addicts find treatment centers. Problem was normally there were no beds available and months long waiting lists. We spend billions on drug treatment programs. So Dude how is making it legal going to make people stop using? If the fear of Jail is not stong enough to make you want to quit?

When they are illegal, however, we have the same problems. Criminal gangs dominate the market, they kill rivals, they use the money to corrupt everyone including the police, the government gets involved with the business to fund stuff they can't get people to vote for, the price goes way up, addicts rape steal and murder to get fixes, etc. It's a **** storm and it's way way way worse than if it was simply legalized.

Criminal gangs will still dominate the market. You can buy all kinds of legal things cheaper on the black market. Prescription drugs are legal yet they are the new number one choice for drug dealers because courts dont send you to jail for selling pills vs selling crack and you make more money. When I was buying pills Id pay as much as $60 per pill for a good Oxy or perc. The big thing now gangs are getting into are cigarettes. They go buy trailer loads down south like GA or NC drive them up to NY or Mass and make a ton of money selling the cigarettes because of the high taxes that NY charges. They are making Millions. So when we make drugs legal and tax the crap out of them in effect raising the price you dont think gangs still wont be selling black market dope cheaper?

Consequently, all kinds of governments are finally realizing this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4791099...uguay-aims-legalize-oversee-marijuana-market/



I guess some taxpayers got tired of paying for all of the public employees associated with "drug wars" and crap...

When I worked dope we were the only self sufficent unit in the department. We actually made money for the city thru drug and asset forefiture. It was nothing for us to find 60 to 70 grand hidden in closets, 8 to 9 grand in peoples pockets, Nice paid off BMW's ect nice Tvs ect. all that money we kept and used.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't understand why we can't look at the prohibition of alcohol as a case study for all drugs, but anyway, let's drag this topic into new waters...

How many civil rights are you willing to sacrifice in order to combat illegal drugs? What powers should the government have to enforce these laws?

 

[ballen0351]

I don't understand why we can't look at the prohibition of alcohol as a case study for all drugs, but anyway, let's drag this topic into new waters...

Alcohol is different then Crack no matter how hard you want to try and spin it.

How many civil rights are you willing to sacrifice in order to combat illegal drugs? What powers should the government have to enforce these laws?

What civil rights are being violated?

 

[Makalakumu]

What civil rights are being violated?

Apparently not enough. People are still usung illegal drugs and people are getting killed. Therefore I propose that we put mandate dope detectors in everyone's home and if anyone smokes a joint, the police will be immediately notified. We also need long prison sentances for anyone involved in said situations. That will teach people not to associate with undesirables. Also, we need to execute drug dealers on the spot like the Communists.

It's for the children donchaknow.